Why doesnt GG take Payal?
by Donald "Yadot" Harris · in General Discussion · 01/19/2006 (7:22 am) · 35 replies
Any hope for this in the future?
#2
01/19/2006 (7:52 am)
So wait should I ignore all your post that you have given advice on then? :) 
#3
Pretty much the single reason why GG stays away from PayPal is fraud risk mitigation. As of our last research cycle, PP gives the vendor zero capability for restitution if someone pays for your product, downloads it, and then stops payment on the transaction before it goes through. All costs for this type of fraudulent action sit completely on the vendor, and it's not something we're happy with exposing ourselves to.
There is always a slight chance this will change in the future, but as far as I know it's not a current plan.
01/19/2006 (8:21 am)
David is just too humble--his posts are almost always spot on!Pretty much the single reason why GG stays away from PayPal is fraud risk mitigation. As of our last research cycle, PP gives the vendor zero capability for restitution if someone pays for your product, downloads it, and then stops payment on the transaction before it goes through. All costs for this type of fraudulent action sit completely on the vendor, and it's not something we're happy with exposing ourselves to.
There is always a slight chance this will change in the future, but as far as I know it's not a current plan.
#4
01/19/2006 (8:32 am)
Just to follow up on what Stephen said, there was a very public example of online fraud using paypay this past year on a RPG MMO Auction house. Essentially what had happened was someone bought an expensive in-game item off of someone else and then recinded the payment because PayPal has a loop-hool in their agreement stating that you do not have to pay for "virtual" merchandise. As such in this case downloading Torque or any game here would fall under the same category and the same scam. 
#5
The question really is how many additional games/licenses do you sell versus headaches by providing a PayPal or PayByCash option. We've sold many copies of MoM via PayPal. Ordering by PayPal is in many people's "comfort zone". We haven't been scammed once. We also wait for all transactions to clear. Though, of note, no one has ever canceled a transaction!
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games, Inc
01/19/2006 (8:50 am)
Anyone "scamming" in this manner would have a pirate version of the source code with no EULA. I am sure there are easier ways to get pirated copies of Torque that don't land you on a list of canceled transactions. Anyway, you could wait for the transaction to clear before providing download information. The question really is how many additional games/licenses do you sell versus headaches by providing a PayPal or PayByCash option. We've sold many copies of MoM via PayPal. Ordering by PayPal is in many people's "comfort zone". We haven't been scammed once. We also wait for all transactions to clear. Though, of note, no one has ever canceled a transaction!
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games, Inc
#6
01/19/2006 (9:48 am)
Ignore, no. Publicly berate, yes.
#7
01/19/2006 (11:22 am)
Quote:you could wait for the transaction to clear before providing download information.You would think that something so obvious would be taken into consideration by an established company.
#8
01/19/2006 (11:35 am)
Hey Zepp hopw about I just paypal you the loot and then you email me a link! LOL 
#9
With paypal, you can get a refund even after the amount has cleared. Since the seller can't prove the item was delivered for an electronic item (they require tracking numbers), they'll just refund the money and that's it.
Then again, this can also happen with a credit card sale, though it's more rare. Items delivered over the net are usually refunded without question. I've had more problems with fraud and chargebacks with credit cards then I have with paypal.
01/19/2006 (12:38 pm)
Quote:You would think that something so obvious would be taken into consideration by an established company.
With paypal, you can get a refund even after the amount has cleared. Since the seller can't prove the item was delivered for an electronic item (they require tracking numbers), they'll just refund the money and that's it.
Then again, this can also happen with a credit card sale, though it's more rare. Items delivered over the net are usually refunded without question. I've had more problems with fraud and chargebacks with credit cards then I have with paypal.
#10
fyi a person could do an even 'worse' type of cheat with a creditcard, meaning they could claim they never got their product and then have their cc company give a refund (which will be deducted from the merchant)
of course, the reason people dont do that all the time is because the CC company will catch on to that behavior the 2nd or 3rd time a person does it...
but the possibility is still there.
anyway, paypal or the similar is a good system for people outside the usa to pay. (and waiting for the transaction to clear is a good way to mitigate the risk also)
01/19/2006 (1:00 pm)
From a usability perspective, GG should take paypal.fyi a person could do an even 'worse' type of cheat with a creditcard, meaning they could claim they never got their product and then have their cc company give a refund (which will be deducted from the merchant)
of course, the reason people dont do that all the time is because the CC company will catch on to that behavior the 2nd or 3rd time a person does it...
but the possibility is still there.
anyway, paypal or the similar is a good system for people outside the usa to pay. (and waiting for the transaction to clear is a good way to mitigate the risk also)
#11
01/19/2006 (1:10 pm)
Ok Ok end of this thread. Since it could potentially turn in to a GG BASH.
#12
You would think that people would read posts and take them for what they are worth: summaries of the entire thought process and background research performed.
Our current online purchasing system is automated, and a very large majority of the time does not require human intervention. To implement a system like this, we not only would have to add human intervention in the process (receive notification of the purchase being credited to the account, and then manually grant authorization of the download), but we would still be subject to PayPal's willingness to let account holders request a refund through PayPal and be granted it, with the chargeback coming to our (hypothetical) PayPal merchant account with no documentation or intervention capability.
Once again, not that in my original post I said:
And as of the last research cycle, PayPal did NOT provide information to vendors regarding individuals requesting paypal refunds--they simply chargedback to the vendor directly.
When this was researched previously, it was pretty blatently obvious that not only would it increase our already drastic exposure to fraud, but would also require dedicated employees to track, handle, and account for the transaction cycles. When compared against the amount of serious sales requests that wished to use PayPal and were unable to utlize a money order via international mail, it did not make viable business sense for us to utilize the service.
It's possible that PayPal has since addressed the commercial vendor concerns we had, and it's possible that it will be re-addressed by us in the future.
01/19/2006 (1:11 pm)
Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you could wait for the transaction to clear before providing download information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You would think that something so obvious would be taken into consideration by an established company.
You would think that people would read posts and take them for what they are worth: summaries of the entire thought process and background research performed.
Our current online purchasing system is automated, and a very large majority of the time does not require human intervention. To implement a system like this, we not only would have to add human intervention in the process (receive notification of the purchase being credited to the account, and then manually grant authorization of the download), but we would still be subject to PayPal's willingness to let account holders request a refund through PayPal and be granted it, with the chargeback coming to our (hypothetical) PayPal merchant account with no documentation or intervention capability.
Once again, not that in my original post I said:
Quote:
as of our last research cycle,
And as of the last research cycle, PayPal did NOT provide information to vendors regarding individuals requesting paypal refunds--they simply chargedback to the vendor directly.
When this was researched previously, it was pretty blatently obvious that not only would it increase our already drastic exposure to fraud, but would also require dedicated employees to track, handle, and account for the transaction cycles. When compared against the amount of serious sales requests that wished to use PayPal and were unable to utlize a money order via international mail, it did not make viable business sense for us to utilize the service.
It's possible that PayPal has since addressed the commercial vendor concerns we had, and it's possible that it will be re-addressed by us in the future.
#13
Hey If i Delete the first message on this post will kill the whole thing?
01/19/2006 (1:38 pm)
I like triangles...Hey If i Delete the first message on this post will kill the whole thing?
#14
Far be it for anyone to question your thought processes and research performed by attempting to give you some feedback and usage experience.
As I said, there are a lot of people comfortable with PayPal. These people might be shy about putting their CC information into various websites. PayPal also makes purchasing stuff for the CONSUMER pretty easy. Not accepting people's money because you may have to parse some emails or have someone click a button doesn't seem like a very good reason.
It's doubtful that legions of scammers are hiding in the darkness just waiting for a PayPal option to pounce. Besides, how many chargebacks have you fought and won with CC? Yeah, yeah, yeah...
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games, Inc
01/19/2006 (1:39 pm)
Wow.Far be it for anyone to question your thought processes and research performed by attempting to give you some feedback and usage experience.
As I said, there are a lot of people comfortable with PayPal. These people might be shy about putting their CC information into various websites. PayPal also makes purchasing stuff for the CONSUMER pretty easy. Not accepting people's money because you may have to parse some emails or have someone click a button doesn't seem like a very good reason.
It's doubtful that legions of scammers are hiding in the darkness just waiting for a PayPal option to pounce. Besides, how many chargebacks have you fought and won with CC? Yeah, yeah, yeah...
Quote:PayPal did NOT provide information to vendors regarding individuals requesting paypal refunds--they simply chargedback to the vendor directly.<--- The suck... not sure on this one. I haven't seen it. It's definitely something that needs fixing on their part if the case.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games, Inc
#15
Ajari didn't provide feedback/usage experience, he sidways insulted GG business practices and decisions. I responded to his comment.
I personally have no proof of any individuals that wanted Torque but would not use a money order in the mail to purchase it, but insisted on PayPal. I have personally seen multiple times where mailing a money order was a completely viable solution to any purchasing issues.
01/19/2006 (2:34 pm)
Josh:Ajari didn't provide feedback/usage experience, he sidways insulted GG business practices and decisions. I responded to his comment.
I personally have no proof of any individuals that wanted Torque but would not use a money order in the mail to purchase it, but insisted on PayPal. I have personally seen multiple times where mailing a money order was a completely viable solution to any purchasing issues.
#16
Mailing a money order is a serious pain... I am sure you can see that.
Anyway, it's your call and GG is looking at all the puzzle pieces.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games, Inc
01/19/2006 (2:39 pm)
I was quoted and the term "people" applied. Fair enough.Mailing a money order is a serious pain... I am sure you can see that.
Anyway, it's your call and GG is looking at all the puzzle pieces.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games, Inc
#17
insted of the downloading stuff for the first time, why you don't ask, like 5 or 10 $ more for sending the tg on cd ( i remenber you did that before) and you send in the package all the info after for the upgrade.
01/19/2006 (4:47 pm)
Why you do not give the choice to use paypalinsted of the downloading stuff for the first time, why you don't ask, like 5 or 10 $ more for sending the tg on cd ( i remenber you did that before) and you send in the package all the info after for the upgrade.
#18
01/20/2006 (12:43 am)
If you're legally old enough to have a Paypal account, Why wouldn't you have a Credit Card or Bank Account aswell? 
#19
01/20/2006 (1:21 am)
@Mincetro: Great point... I don't see many people going to Walmart online, or Best Buy online and ask them why they don't support paypal. To me paypal is a great solution if you can't bandwith a full cc/debit viable solution that is authenticated. GG provides the later and in my opinion elminates the need for Paypal.
#20
Mincetro: Many people are worried about giving out credit card info on the internet and using paypal to pay doesn't have the same risks involved.
Stephen Zepp: FYI it is very easy to create a CGI app that waits for PayPals reponse that the payment is completed. They call it IPN i think, or they used to at least. That doesn't solve any of the other issues they have with digital goods (odd since they are a digitial payment system but thats life) and returns/refunds. You could always cancel there accounts if they cancel payments (also automated through IPN).
01/20/2006 (7:10 am)
Matthew, Actualy PayPal has a debit card, and as far as i can tell you can use it anywhere MasterCard is accepted.Mincetro: Many people are worried about giving out credit card info on the internet and using paypal to pay doesn't have the same risks involved.
Stephen Zepp: FYI it is very easy to create a CGI app that waits for PayPals reponse that the payment is completed. They call it IPN i think, or they used to at least. That doesn't solve any of the other issues they have with digital goods (odd since they are a digitial payment system but thats life) and returns/refunds. You could always cancel there accounts if they cancel payments (also automated through IPN).
Associate David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake