Getting a character to actually work
by Neil Marshall · in Artist Corner · 03/04/2002 (10:40 am) · 22 replies
What do I need to do to get a model to actually operate as a character?
I've created the shape and managed to get it to show up in the torque engine. I called the object "Player", I added "Mount0" and "Mount1", I added the "Eye" and "Cam" objects and re-exported. I ran UnMessDTS on it and replaced the player.dts with my new player.dts file.
When I run torque on the scortched earth level, it starts loading and then crashes. I tried to modify the .cs file but that didn't help at all. What exactly do I need to do to take a shape from just a normal dts to one that I can actually control? I don't care about animations at this point. I just want to get the character attached to the camera.
I've created the shape and managed to get it to show up in the torque engine. I called the object "Player", I added "Mount0" and "Mount1", I added the "Eye" and "Cam" objects and re-exported. I ran UnMessDTS on it and replaced the player.dts with my new player.dts file.
When I run torque on the scortched earth level, it starts loading and then crashes. I tried to modify the .cs file but that didn't help at all. What exactly do I need to do to take a shape from just a normal dts to one that I can actually control? I don't care about animations at this point. I just want to get the character attached to the camera.
#2
03/04/2002 (10:50 am)
It could crash for many reasons. It's hard to guess from just what you are saying what the problem could be. I would suggest taking a read through Joe's DTSexport doc. If you are still having trouble after that you could come back and post the specific problem you are having. Everyone here seems very willing to help out with clearly defined problems. Good luck=)
#3
03/04/2002 (11:07 am)
You might also want to check to make sure that you have your .cfg set up to export the correct nodes.
#4
What are the minimum nodes a character needs ? I don't see any errors in the dump file and it does not show up in the veiwer tool... i have tried to follow the step by step i found in the forums but i am still having trouble. we are using max 5.1 for the models and meshes... are there specific names that must be used for the nodes or for the files ?... any help or links to tutorials would be appreciated.
Between biped and bones and multires and unmessdts... i'm not sure how or what i need to setup or how to set it up....
10/07/2003 (9:54 pm)
I've been trying for 2 weeks to get a single character to work in the engine...What are the minimum nodes a character needs ? I don't see any errors in the dump file and it does not show up in the veiwer tool... i have tried to follow the step by step i found in the forums but i am still having trouble. we are using max 5.1 for the models and meshes... are there specific names that must be used for the nodes or for the files ?... any help or links to tutorials would be appreciated.
Between biped and bones and multires and unmessdts... i'm not sure how or what i need to setup or how to set it up....
#5
Logan
10/08/2003 (12:25 am)
Buddy, I guess that you must have missed the DTS Exporter Documentation that is freely available here on the GarageGames website. This document covers pretty much everything that you need to know about exporting anything to a DTS file. Read it, do the tutorials and look at the example files that come with it (as well as what comes with Torque and even Realmwars) and know it off by heart as it will be your bible. Once you do you will find that exportering anything to a DTS or DSQ file is easy as eating pancakes.Logan
#6
10/09/2003 (8:39 am)
...pancakes? Hmm.....if things were only that simple....System settings must be everything(and your tool versions...): I cannot get MultiRes to work for anything, with anything, any way....following the documentation to the letter will leave you scratching your head, wondering....???:)What/where did I go wrong????????? I like following directions, it's very linear; there is a definite beginning, middle, and ending, working around stuf is hard if your system isn't the exact same....:) I'm now off to find out why the -showTool's buttons don't stop animations....probably in our .exe build??? and again, my system, probably...
#7
10/09/2003 (10:46 am)
I have followed the tutorial... and no i didn't miss it... i read it first.... but i am still having problems with just plain shapes... multi detail works but multi res does not.... and collision doesn't work at all... yes i have bought the paul steed book plus a few others... yes i have read and downloaded all the tutorials.... yes i graduated college at 17.. so i'm pretty sure i know how to read.... no i can't get a character into torque no matter how many times i follow the tutorials step by step
#8
I have only been able to attach a segmented character to a Biped, this allowed me to link to the default animations. If you are running Max5.0, I can only say that you will find this as difficult as I have to accomplish. Reading countless OLD OUTDATED tutorials is pointless and a bit wastefull, IMHO.
A much better idea,again IMHO, would be for someone who has successfully done some exporting from 5.0, do a lovely tutorial on their working, successful workflow. Again, because following the documention; as is, will use up a lot of time better spent artistically rather than asking artists to become code hounds....
What will happen when the Major Tool goes to version 6,7,8???...oh, yeah, go read the old tuts...did you miss them? ahhahaha, I am taking this with a little humor...
10/10/2003 (5:01 am)
Hey Buddy,I have only been able to attach a segmented character to a Biped, this allowed me to link to the default animations. If you are running Max5.0, I can only say that you will find this as difficult as I have to accomplish. Reading countless OLD OUTDATED tutorials is pointless and a bit wastefull, IMHO.
A much better idea,again IMHO, would be for someone who has successfully done some exporting from 5.0, do a lovely tutorial on their working, successful workflow. Again, because following the documention; as is, will use up a lot of time better spent artistically rather than asking artists to become code hounds....
What will happen when the Major Tool goes to version 6,7,8???...oh, yeah, go read the old tuts...did you miss them? ahhahaha, I am taking this with a little humor...
#9
Delete the mesh in the player.max file in the player folder and add your own mesh. Now at least you know the file has all the required nodes. Play with the config file until the export is stable.MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A CONFIG FILE IN THE FOLDER YOUR EXPORTING FROM.
Don't know what the term is in MAX but "bake" your mesh so all the modifiers are gone THEN apply multires and skin modifier if using.
If your using a skin modifier whether on a single mesh or a segmented it has to be a child of the scene and not a child of the nodes(as the player.max file is linked to the appropiate nodes because no skin modifier is used).
I can't stress enough the importance of getting comfortable with config files and experimenting with them. If your creating your own animations their essential for good blend anims.
Regardless if you think those tutorials are out dated They have all the ingredients you need to make a successful export. Keep it open as you work and you'll see little tricks that you missed I promise.
I guarantee if you keep experimenting within a week you'll be exporting like clockwork.
I work in multiple softwares and although changes in max 5 might be a legitimate stumbling block don't point your finger at the software as being the culprit - it creates a mental block to the answer. Assume there is a work around and you'll find it faster.
10/10/2003 (7:16 am)
Hmmm, I'm still in max4 at home but I've seen max5 and although I haven't exported from it, it doesn't appear to have changed that drastically. What I can offer is how I eventually got these things exporting well.Delete the mesh in the player.max file in the player folder and add your own mesh. Now at least you know the file has all the required nodes. Play with the config file until the export is stable.MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A CONFIG FILE IN THE FOLDER YOUR EXPORTING FROM.
Don't know what the term is in MAX but "bake" your mesh so all the modifiers are gone THEN apply multires and skin modifier if using.
If your using a skin modifier whether on a single mesh or a segmented it has to be a child of the scene and not a child of the nodes(as the player.max file is linked to the appropiate nodes because no skin modifier is used).
I can't stress enough the importance of getting comfortable with config files and experimenting with them. If your creating your own animations their essential for good blend anims.
Regardless if you think those tutorials are out dated They have all the ingredients you need to make a successful export. Keep it open as you work and you'll see little tricks that you missed I promise.
I guarantee if you keep experimenting within a week you'll be exporting like clockwork.
I work in multiple softwares and although changes in max 5 might be a legitimate stumbling block don't point your finger at the software as being the culprit - it creates a mental block to the answer. Assume there is a work around and you'll find it faster.
#10
@Buddy, Why don't you try to explain your problems in more detail and I could help you walk through them here the forums so that other people who may potentially have the same problem as you can learn from it as well. Please upload your file somewhere so that I can look at it and let you know what is going on.
As for Multires, most problems with it are due to incorrect usage of the modifier (it needs to be on top of the stack), giving it the LOD information it needs for export, proper placement in the hierarchy, or they are using a bad compile of the DTS Exporter modifier.
Collision data problems usually come from have Col (the name for the collision geometry) name mixed up with Collision (used for the detail markers).
@Rex
The docs will become updated as needed. As such though they are incredibly thorough and in depth to the point where you can learn everything you need to learn about the exporter there. This is something that no "tutorial" could ever teach.
In regards to whether or not you think it is worthwhile for an artist to read the docs... well my personal opinion is suck it up and read them. The exporter is a tool just like any graphics application that you own and/or use, as such you need to know how it works in order to use it properly and successfully. Otherwise you will be doomed to having a frustrating time working not only with Torque but with pretty much every other engine on the planet.
Having a simplied exporter process would be nice, but you know what, you lose a lot of control that you get, and I do not know about you, but I for one appreciate the control that I get from the exporter.
@Duke well said.
10/10/2003 (7:37 am)
@Everyone, in regards to tutorials. A tutorial simply will not work due to the complexity that is involved in the DTS exporter, as such the only documentation that you should read in regards to DTS Exporter are the docs written by Joe Maruschak (most of the other tutorials on the net are not very thorough, nor do they tend to explain what is really going on or why you are doing something a certain way).@Buddy, Why don't you try to explain your problems in more detail and I could help you walk through them here the forums so that other people who may potentially have the same problem as you can learn from it as well. Please upload your file somewhere so that I can look at it and let you know what is going on.
As for Multires, most problems with it are due to incorrect usage of the modifier (it needs to be on top of the stack), giving it the LOD information it needs for export, proper placement in the hierarchy, or they are using a bad compile of the DTS Exporter modifier.
Collision data problems usually come from have Col (the name for the collision geometry) name mixed up with Collision (used for the detail markers).
@Rex
The docs will become updated as needed. As such though they are incredibly thorough and in depth to the point where you can learn everything you need to learn about the exporter there. This is something that no "tutorial" could ever teach.
In regards to whether or not you think it is worthwhile for an artist to read the docs... well my personal opinion is suck it up and read them. The exporter is a tool just like any graphics application that you own and/or use, as such you need to know how it works in order to use it properly and successfully. Otherwise you will be doomed to having a frustrating time working not only with Torque but with pretty much every other engine on the planet.
Having a simplied exporter process would be nice, but you know what, you lose a lot of control that you get, and I do not know about you, but I for one appreciate the control that I get from the exporter.
@Duke well said.
#11
I know I'm just missing something simple on exporting the player files.
I have started taking the player examples and disassembling them piece by piece... in order to find out where i am going wrong... I find the schematic views the most help and also using the search by name to list what is being used. I will update if i get it right and maybe add a little to the tutorials if i can.
10/10/2003 (7:52 am)
I agree the tutorials were extremely helpful... i can make shapes all day without error.... i will recheck my use of the col and collision names to make sure i didn't transpose them.I know I'm just missing something simple on exporting the player files.
I have started taking the player examples and disassembling them piece by piece... in order to find out where i am going wrong... I find the schematic views the most help and also using the search by name to list what is being used. I will update if i get it right and maybe add a little to the tutorials if i can.
#12
I've programed/repaired/operated robotic lighting fixtures and advanced lighting control boards, with as many knobs/buttons/subpanels as these GUI's contain, I am comfortable with any Human Input Device that I encounter, I can't remember a combination of articles that has proven this difficult to get working in tandem...???:) I'm sure I'll eventually find the 10 secrets needed to master it...you know; it's a rule of thumb, every task has about 10 little 'tricks' that do the job; once discovered, the rest is fluff......:)
10/10/2003 (7:48 pm)
OH, I've read the documents, printed them out and study them quite a bit. I'm not saying an artist shouldn't know/read any information available, hardly(that's foolish); it's just that what I've read has not worked and my experiments have not, and all the advice I've received has not, that's all. :)I've programed/repaired/operated robotic lighting fixtures and advanced lighting control boards, with as many knobs/buttons/subpanels as these GUI's contain, I am comfortable with any Human Input Device that I encounter, I can't remember a combination of articles that has proven this difficult to get working in tandem...???:) I'm sure I'll eventually find the 10 secrets needed to master it...you know; it's a rule of thumb, every task has about 10 little 'tricks' that do the job; once discovered, the rest is fluff......:)
#13
@Rex, I am curious to hear exactly what has not worked exactly. Maybe I can help point you into a direction that can work if you give me more information on what you are doing.
10/11/2003 (11:57 pm)
@buddy, you can also uplaod your files somewhere and someone who is knowledgable and experianced with the exporter can take a look at them and try to help you out too.@Rex, I am curious to hear exactly what has not worked exactly. Maybe I can help point you into a direction that can work if you give me more information on what you are doing.
#14
Basically two issues:
1.Can't get any MultiRes to work, no matter what I do, either crashes Max(with it applied to anything) or doesn't generate the subdetail meshes with detail levels, just repeats the mesh several times.
2.Although not as many attempts as the above, but; attaching a mesh to a BIPED system, with Skin modifier, doesn't allow the model to link to default animations. When loaded into the -showTool, no animations are included in the thread count/descriptions, and it stands as a statute? Pretty sure all verts are included in envelopes...
I've got some time today to look at another attempt at a single mesh(with no LOD's, just a default placeholder--for now)to the BIPED. I wasn't up on CS before this(used Bones mostly), but after studying the documentation and a few tuts, I like it's ease of setup...and the Max documentations are fine examples and pieces of hard work, for the earlier versions of the modeling tool, no disrespect intended, at all.
...these are two I've been struggling with for some months...using Max5 with the max5_2dts exporter.
I like this engine, however; I'm holding off more investments on Tools/Utilities until I see practical, real results...:):\ At this point it is difficult for me at the juncture to justify it; if it will take extraordinary work/effort to use tools purchased today(that keep upgrading) while the links to the engine lag behind, will be a very difficult obsticle to overcome. I'm not even above commisioning an exporter that would work for my setup...I am in the process of putting together a couple different approaches to solve this issue. Thanks again for any advice...
Rex
10/12/2003 (7:39 am)
Thanks, Logan,Basically two issues:
1.Can't get any MultiRes to work, no matter what I do, either crashes Max(with it applied to anything) or doesn't generate the subdetail meshes with detail levels, just repeats the mesh several times.
2.Although not as many attempts as the above, but; attaching a mesh to a BIPED system, with Skin modifier, doesn't allow the model to link to default animations. When loaded into the -showTool, no animations are included in the thread count/descriptions, and it stands as a statute? Pretty sure all verts are included in envelopes...
I've got some time today to look at another attempt at a single mesh(with no LOD's, just a default placeholder--for now)to the BIPED. I wasn't up on CS before this(used Bones mostly), but after studying the documentation and a few tuts, I like it's ease of setup...and the Max documentations are fine examples and pieces of hard work, for the earlier versions of the modeling tool, no disrespect intended, at all.
...these are two I've been struggling with for some months...using Max5 with the max5_2dts exporter.
I like this engine, however; I'm holding off more investments on Tools/Utilities until I see practical, real results...:):\ At this point it is difficult for me at the juncture to justify it; if it will take extraordinary work/effort to use tools purchased today(that keep upgrading) while the links to the engine lag behind, will be a very difficult obsticle to overcome. I'm not even above commisioning an exporter that would work for my setup...I am in the process of putting together a couple different approaches to solve this issue. Thanks again for any advice...
Rex
#15
There seems to be some issues with the compile of the R5 exporter and the MultiRes modifier. My guess is that this might be happening to you. A work around is to use the R4 multires.dlm file in your R5 max, and then use the Bravetree R4 exporter.
As for the animations... you unfortunately cannot use the default sequences unless your model shares the same nodes (minue geometry) with what is in the sequences (ie. same bone names, same DTS node objects). The easiest solution that I can give to you in regards to this is to tear out the geometry from the RW Orc or the Torque Demo Guy and use the biped and DTS nodes from there. If you like I have a download of the biped w/ nodes available on the Realm Wars site, you could download the file, and merge in the DTS nodes into your scene if you like and that should solve the problem for you (or use the rig and nodes).
Please note that you should try to keep the your biped size the same general form and shape that is used in the samples that I mentioned above. If they aren't they will still work, but you might get a few wierd results because the transforms between your DTS and the sequences might be slightly off and scew the results you get in the engine.
Logan
10/12/2003 (8:23 am)
Rex,There seems to be some issues with the compile of the R5 exporter and the MultiRes modifier. My guess is that this might be happening to you. A work around is to use the R4 multires.dlm file in your R5 max, and then use the Bravetree R4 exporter.
As for the animations... you unfortunately cannot use the default sequences unless your model shares the same nodes (minue geometry) with what is in the sequences (ie. same bone names, same DTS node objects). The easiest solution that I can give to you in regards to this is to tear out the geometry from the RW Orc or the Torque Demo Guy and use the biped and DTS nodes from there. If you like I have a download of the biped w/ nodes available on the Realm Wars site, you could download the file, and merge in the DTS nodes into your scene if you like and that should solve the problem for you (or use the rig and nodes).
Please note that you should try to keep the your biped size the same general form and shape that is used in the samples that I mentioned above. If they aren't they will still work, but you might get a few wierd results because the transforms between your DTS and the sequences might be slightly off and scew the results you get in the engine.
Logan
#16
I got one memory error... It was due to not following the last part about having a multires.. after i did that it was smooth sailing... err modeling... I even followed the one for animating the shape... works like a charm
try these... do them step by step and you should have no problems... also be sure you have the correct dts exporter for your versions of max... 3,4 or 5 .. there is a version out for 5 make sure you get it if you are using 5. I saved my *.max to a folder, then i put a dtsDefault.cfg in there and reopened my *.max file... then exported using the >Utilities>Max2Dts Tools
.. also make sure you have collapse unchecked
follow these
http://www.garagegames.com/articles/dhannah/tutorials/
I got models to make :-)
10/12/2003 (12:38 pm)
Thanks for the help.... took me 4 hours, but I got it working with no errors.... I followed the tutorial step by step...I got one memory error... It was due to not following the last part about having a multires.. after i did that it was smooth sailing... err modeling... I even followed the one for animating the shape... works like a charm
try these... do them step by step and you should have no problems... also be sure you have the correct dts exporter for your versions of max... 3,4 or 5 .. there is a version out for 5 make sure you get it if you are using 5. I saved my *.max to a folder, then i put a dtsDefault.cfg in there and reopened my *.max file... then exported using the >Utilities>Max2Dts Tools
.. also make sure you have collapse unchecked
follow these
http://www.garagegames.com/articles/dhannah/tutorials/
I got models to make :-)
#17
Is there anyway to change the default player size ?
I have player characters that are scaled between 12-40 meters tall... when i put them in the game engine they sink to their calfs knees or waists.... if there is no way to go beyond the 2 meter player height i will have to rescale all of my terrains and objects down to 1/4 or 1/6 of what they are now... not to mention reworking all the texture maps...
Any advice would be appreciated
Here are a few screen shots to show you the problem...
http://www.is3025.com/beta/cmn1.gif
http://www.is3025.com/beta/cmn2.gif
10/12/2003 (7:40 pm)
New problem....Is there anyway to change the default player size ?
I have player characters that are scaled between 12-40 meters tall... when i put them in the game engine they sink to their calfs knees or waists.... if there is no way to go beyond the 2 meter player height i will have to rescale all of my terrains and objects down to 1/4 or 1/6 of what they are now... not to mention reworking all the texture maps...
Any advice would be appreciated
Here are a few screen shots to show you the problem...
http://www.is3025.com/beta/cmn1.gif
http://www.is3025.com/beta/cmn2.gif
#18
As for scaling your character, check the resources section as someone posted a resource that could do this... though I don't know how well it actually performs.
Logan
10/13/2003 (6:50 pm)
Check the location of the pivot point on your bounds node, it should be located at the feet of your player character. This is required because the engine will use the bounds node position to place the character on the map, if you do this differently you would need to offset the node in code and that is never a recommended option to do.As for scaling your character, check the resources section as someone posted a resource that could do this... though I don't know how well it actually performs.
Logan
#19
When i switch to the world editor and import the player as a shape then bounds box looks fine... but when i switch the view and look at the player character... the bounds box is small... 2 meter or 1 meter ... so i am sure that it is in the code.... maybe the player.cc file ?
I found the scaling code rescource, but not quit sure how or where it gets used.
thanks for the help and the suggestion of the scaling rescource
10/13/2003 (8:55 pm)
The bounds pivot point was fine.... it is in the code somewhere i think...When i switch to the world editor and import the player as a shape then bounds box looks fine... but when i switch the view and look at the player character... the bounds box is small... 2 meter or 1 meter ... so i am sure that it is in the code.... maybe the player.cc file ?
I found the scaling code rescource, but not quit sure how or where it gets used.
thanks for the help and the suggestion of the scaling rescource
#20
This question is vaguely related: Are you haveing any luck having your Multires details for the character animate the same way the skinned mesh does? After much dinking about (yes, I *did* read all the instruxxions first)I've gotten Multires to work in Max4, but the lower poly models do not adopt the "skin" animations of the original mesh, they only retain the xyz transform date for the Bip01 node.
02/19/2004 (7:21 am)
HI Guys!This question is vaguely related: Are you haveing any luck having your Multires details for the character animate the same way the skinned mesh does? After much dinking about (yes, I *did* read all the instruxxions first)I've gotten Multires to work in Max4, but the lower poly models do not adopt the "skin" animations of the original mesh, they only retain the xyz transform date for the Bip01 node.
Torque 3D Owner Phil Carlisle
you need to get an idle animation in your model exported as idle dsq and remove all the other anim dsq files from the player.cs file.
Phil.