Player/Weapons
by Xavier "eXoDuS" Amado · in Artist Corner · 03/02/2002 (8:05 am) · 38 replies
I really dont understand this perfectly... but, to make the weapon seen on the screen... with a part of the player arms.. i would have to edit the player model and make his arms higher right?
Also, if i would like the left hand to hold the weapon too... i would have to move the hand or can i use some kind of 2nd mount point that would automatically rotate and attach the weapon to the 2nd mount point?
What about reloading animations? I would need to create animations separetly and beg that they look nice?
I mean, i would have to animate the weapon AND the player model separately and then play them at the same time right?
Hope someone can help me a bit with this questions :\
Also, if i would like the left hand to hold the weapon too... i would have to move the hand or can i use some kind of 2nd mount point that would automatically rotate and attach the weapon to the 2nd mount point?
What about reloading animations? I would need to create animations separetly and beg that they look nice?
I mean, i would have to animate the weapon AND the player model separately and then play them at the same time right?
Hope someone can help me a bit with this questions :\
About the author
#22
05/30/2002 (2:16 am)
I have done mods for Red Faction where you included the arms for each gun. It wasn't a big deal to animate. I don't understand the problem here. If the guns are different held they must have different animations anyway by both characters in 3rd person view and the player in 1st person view. A reload on a 3rd person character doesn't have to look exactly the same as in 1st person as long as they have the same duration. It's only you as player that can see what "your" arms are doing. What do you mean with halfarm animations? When I create the arms I model from upperarm to the fingertips. No problem to animate a waving.
#23
model 1:
-seen when weapon is laying on the ground
-seen in hands of player by other players
model 2:
-Only seen in first person, by the player
advantages:
- better reload animations etc
The player model hands are not that detailed (fingers etc)... The hands on the weapon are detailed, and can have their own texture = even more detail (vains on the arms, even hair, realistic skin....)
-better animations... much more detailed animations
-better performance:
first model doesn't have to be that detailed
-....
--> about synching animations.. the player animation should only be a rough imitation of the weapon animation.. the arms don't have to do exactly the same as the arms on the weapon model. After all, the player can't see his own model when in first person.
Now, I'm sure Toruqe doesn't support this at the moment...
Question is what we should do to have it this way... not and endless discussion wether or not its good... cuz it is the best way in my opinion to have good looking graphics.
05/30/2002 (3:02 am)
basically what I would need is to be able to use 2 differnt models:model 1:
-seen when weapon is laying on the ground
-seen in hands of player by other players
model 2:
-Only seen in first person, by the player
advantages:
- better reload animations etc
The player model hands are not that detailed (fingers etc)... The hands on the weapon are detailed, and can have their own texture = even more detail (vains on the arms, even hair, realistic skin....)
-better animations... much more detailed animations
-better performance:
first model doesn't have to be that detailed
-....
--> about synching animations.. the player animation should only be a rough imitation of the weapon animation.. the arms don't have to do exactly the same as the arms on the weapon model. After all, the player can't see his own model when in first person.
Now, I'm sure Toruqe doesn't support this at the moment...
Question is what we should do to have it this way... not and endless discussion wether or not its good... cuz it is the best way in my opinion to have good looking graphics.
#24
05/30/2002 (3:32 am)
I think the two weapon models is a good idea.
#25
Look at the resources for RealmWars, only one player model, and only one weapon model, it is used in BOTH views. There are TWO INSTANCES of the weapon model for the weapons on the ground and in hand, but that is data managemnet issues, they both refer to the same MESH data.
The first person view in TORQUE really is the first person view, unlike the FAKE First Person View in HL/Quake derived and others.
The ADVANTAGES to this is you only have to animate one set of objects, for both views, it saves DEVELOPMENT resources on only having to track a single set of resources ( models, textures, animations, etc ), and makes the game less "hackable" because if the user removes the models from the first person view, to get an advantage, they remove them from the 3rd person view also.
Personally I don't see any benefit of moving the view down to the chest and having a completelty different set of animations other than personal preference and the "thats they way I am used to doing it" mindset.
Than again, I want my game to be a sim, not an arcade style shooter.
One of the reasons I picked TGE is the very fact that the first person view IS the same view as the third person, the camera is just attached at the head, like it is supposed to be.
To make it like half-life is simple, just mount the camera lower, in the middle of the chest, that is what HL/Quake derived do.
05/30/2002 (8:03 am)
Actually in TORQUE the weapon the player holds IS the weapon the PLAYER sees in first person view so it IS important what they look like.Look at the resources for RealmWars, only one player model, and only one weapon model, it is used in BOTH views. There are TWO INSTANCES of the weapon model for the weapons on the ground and in hand, but that is data managemnet issues, they both refer to the same MESH data.
The first person view in TORQUE really is the first person view, unlike the FAKE First Person View in HL/Quake derived and others.
The ADVANTAGES to this is you only have to animate one set of objects, for both views, it saves DEVELOPMENT resources on only having to track a single set of resources ( models, textures, animations, etc ), and makes the game less "hackable" because if the user removes the models from the first person view, to get an advantage, they remove them from the 3rd person view also.
Personally I don't see any benefit of moving the view down to the chest and having a completelty different set of animations other than personal preference and the "thats they way I am used to doing it" mindset.
Than again, I want my game to be a sim, not an arcade style shooter.
One of the reasons I picked TGE is the very fact that the first person view IS the same view as the third person, the camera is just attached at the head, like it is supposed to be.
To make it like half-life is simple, just mount the camera lower, in the middle of the chest, that is what HL/Quake derived do.
#26
And moving the camara down.. what does that solve? nothing!
Also, saving DEVELOPMENT time? I don't think so... Like its set up now it would take longer to make good animations. With the system we want its easy, and it will look a ton better.
05/30/2002 (8:12 am)
euhm.. jarod... we all know that is is like that right now!.. we're asking how to change it!!!And moving the camara down.. what does that solve? nothing!
Also, saving DEVELOPMENT time? I don't think so... Like its set up now it would take longer to make good animations. With the system we want its easy, and it will look a ton better.
#27
05/30/2002 (8:18 am)
Well just turn renderfirstperson to false and use the offsets to position the weapon in the 1st person view. You can also set this model to a different one which includes the hands, tho i think it's stupid. Just make the player hands very detailed at a closer view point... that's what LODs are for, so everyone will see a low detail hands and weapon, but the player will see them really close, so he will see the very detailed hands and weapon.
#28
They don't have to be the same model.
05/30/2002 (1:40 pm)
Quote:
Look at the resources for RealmWars, only one player model, and only one weapon model, it is used in BOTH views. There are TWO INSTANCES of the weapon model for the weapons on the ground and in hand, but that is data managemnet issues, they both refer to the same MESH data.
They don't have to be the same model.
#29
I offered a solution that required as little effort as possible. Moving the camera DOWN will give the whacked view that you want with more of the arms and weapon showing, it will also put you CLOSER to the weapon so that LOD could be set very close and kick in a higher res model.
About saving time:
I said it would save DEVELOPMENT resources, on non-trival projects ( like on the commercial projects I have worked on ) managing the resources takes more DEVELOPMENT time than actually creating the assets.
I know from my commercial experience that managing two sets of assets for each weapon and player model ( not to mention textures ) will take more time and effort than creating one weapon and one player model and animating one set of assets like TGE is designed to do now.
It requires that the modeler/animator ADAPT and CHANGE their workflow to be different and more effecient, and requires more thought and planning, thinking is hard work or more people would do it :)
Now imagine you have a class based game with 12 classes and 42 weapons. Do the math, which will be more work, modeling, texturing and animating one model for each weapon and player class or TWO.
As others have stated you can mount different models for each of the views if you want. From what I can see the instances you would want to seem to be exceptions rather than the rule. Anybody have a non-contrived reason to do this?
Just because TGE is different is not BAD it is different, the way HL / Quake do things IS WORSE than the way TGE does things, most everyone will agree on that.
EASY and "look a ton better" are SUBJECTIVE opinions.
I will be working on a player and weapons for my game in the coming weeks, I have a PLAN for managing this exact problem and will try doing it as I stated above, with the ARMS as an attachment to the body as an experiment.
As soon as that LW animation exporter is released :)
05/30/2002 (3:48 pm)
Quote:euhm.. jarod... we all know that is is like that right now!.. we're asking how to change it!!!
And moving the camara down.. what does that solve? nothing!
Also, saving DEVELOPMENT time? I don't think so... Like its set up now it would take longer to make good animations.
I offered a solution that required as little effort as possible. Moving the camera DOWN will give the whacked view that you want with more of the arms and weapon showing, it will also put you CLOSER to the weapon so that LOD could be set very close and kick in a higher res model.
About saving time:
I said it would save DEVELOPMENT resources, on non-trival projects ( like on the commercial projects I have worked on ) managing the resources takes more DEVELOPMENT time than actually creating the assets.
I know from my commercial experience that managing two sets of assets for each weapon and player model ( not to mention textures ) will take more time and effort than creating one weapon and one player model and animating one set of assets like TGE is designed to do now.
It requires that the modeler/animator ADAPT and CHANGE their workflow to be different and more effecient, and requires more thought and planning, thinking is hard work or more people would do it :)
Now imagine you have a class based game with 12 classes and 42 weapons. Do the math, which will be more work, modeling, texturing and animating one model for each weapon and player class or TWO.
As others have stated you can mount different models for each of the views if you want. From what I can see the instances you would want to seem to be exceptions rather than the rule. Anybody have a non-contrived reason to do this?
Just because TGE is different is not BAD it is different, the way HL / Quake do things IS WORSE than the way TGE does things, most everyone will agree on that.
Quote:With the system we want its easy, and it will look a ton better.
EASY and "look a ton better" are SUBJECTIVE opinions.
I will be working on a player and weapons for my game in the coming weeks, I have a PLAN for managing this exact problem and will try doing it as I stated above, with the ARMS as an attachment to the body as an experiment.
As soon as that LW animation exporter is released :)
#30
1: Is it possible to have a character with a dummy to which you attach a gun (a low poly version gun)?
2: Is it possible to make a first person gun (high poly version gun) with arms included?
My opinion - I think this is the best way of making a fps shooter. Model a good character and attach the guns to a dummy. Make rough animations for reload sequences and such, because the guns are low poly with not much detail like lose ammo. Model a pair of detailed arms and guns with ammo and moving mechanics and more advanced animations.
Now imagine you have a class based game with 12 classes and 42 weapons. Do the math, which will be more work, modeling, texturing and animating one model for each weapon and player class or TWO
I don't think that is the right mathematic. It doesn't have to be much work. Many 3rd person character animations for guns can share animations like twohanded guns. You can often copy animations from one character to another with no or small adjustments. First person animations can also be copied from one arm setup to another.
05/31/2002 (2:56 am)
I'm a newbie and know nada about the game engine (so far) so you must explain:1: Is it possible to have a character with a dummy to which you attach a gun (a low poly version gun)?
2: Is it possible to make a first person gun (high poly version gun) with arms included?
My opinion - I think this is the best way of making a fps shooter. Model a good character and attach the guns to a dummy. Make rough animations for reload sequences and such, because the guns are low poly with not much detail like lose ammo. Model a pair of detailed arms and guns with ammo and moving mechanics and more advanced animations.
Now imagine you have a class based game with 12 classes and 42 weapons. Do the math, which will be more work, modeling, texturing and animating one model for each weapon and player class or TWO
I don't think that is the right mathematic. It doesn't have to be much work. Many 3rd person character animations for guns can share animations like twohanded guns. You can often copy animations from one character to another with no or small adjustments. First person animations can also be copied from one arm setup to another.
#31
euhm.. my way what you see in first person view has its own texture and about double the polygons.... I wouldn't say that saying it'll look better is subjective. Don't defend you're own opninions until they sound stupid...you post in this thread, repeating things, post it in CAPITALS, like you know better, but in fact you don't offer a real solution to the question...(What do we change in order to have 2 different models?)
The way its set up now (latest head release) it just misses the arms... but someone stated I can use 2 different models, so i should check that.
05/31/2002 (3:55 am)
Quote:
EASY and "look a ton better" are SUBJECTIVE opinions
euhm.. my way what you see in first person view has its own texture and about double the polygons.... I wouldn't say that saying it'll look better is subjective. Don't defend you're own opninions until they sound stupid...you post in this thread, repeating things, post it in CAPITALS, like you know better, but in fact you don't offer a real solution to the question...(What do we change in order to have 2 different models?)
The way its set up now (latest head release) it just misses the arms... but someone stated I can use 2 different models, so i should check that.
#32
not true, the objects in Torque have LOD ( Level of Detail ) which means the closer you get the more polys are rendered, the farther away, the less polys.
If you are HOLDING a weapon you can't get much closer to it can you? Thus you get a high polygon mesh, if you are far away you get the lower resolution mesh. Player models and everything else that derives from ShapeBase supports this functionality.
With Torque you are NOT limited to a single resolution model for a single view, you can have as many as you want ( more than 3 - 4 LOD is a waste in most cases ).
Remember Torque IS NOT QUAKE derived so those LIMITATIONS of that engine don't apply.
It seems you need to get some education on the engine. Instead of insisting that it is a stupid way of doing things, as I stated earlier it is only DIFFERENT. Unless someone is not willing to learn, then different != bad, just different.
I and others have offered multiple solutions involving the LOD concept that is ALREADY built into the engine, you don't seem to understand these concepts as they apply to this problem as solutions. If you want more explaination on HOW these are solutions, just ask.
And for the record, years of experience do let me know I know better, if you don't understand why someone is right, does not mean they are wrong.
And the ability to mount different mesh images to player models in first and thrid person views is documented in the scripts. I forget the exact place, but it was pretty obvious when I looked at the scripts the last time.
Last I have to say on this, if you have the source, then code in the hacky HL / Quake style model rendering.
Either way, good luck.
05/31/2002 (12:18 pm)
Quote:euhm.. my way what you see in first person view has its own texture and about double the polygons.... I wouldn't say that saying it'll look better is subjective. Don't defend you're own opninions until they sound stupid...you post in this thread, repeating things, post it in CAPITALS, like you know better, but in fact you don't offer a real solution to the question...(What do we change in order to have 2 different models?)
The way its set up now (latest head release) it just misses the arms... but someone stated I can use 2 different models, so i should check that.
not true, the objects in Torque have LOD ( Level of Detail ) which means the closer you get the more polys are rendered, the farther away, the less polys.
If you are HOLDING a weapon you can't get much closer to it can you? Thus you get a high polygon mesh, if you are far away you get the lower resolution mesh. Player models and everything else that derives from ShapeBase supports this functionality.
With Torque you are NOT limited to a single resolution model for a single view, you can have as many as you want ( more than 3 - 4 LOD is a waste in most cases ).
Remember Torque IS NOT QUAKE derived so those LIMITATIONS of that engine don't apply.
It seems you need to get some education on the engine. Instead of insisting that it is a stupid way of doing things, as I stated earlier it is only DIFFERENT. Unless someone is not willing to learn, then different != bad, just different.
I and others have offered multiple solutions involving the LOD concept that is ALREADY built into the engine, you don't seem to understand these concepts as they apply to this problem as solutions. If you want more explaination on HOW these are solutions, just ask.
And for the record, years of experience do let me know I know better, if you don't understand why someone is right, does not mean they are wrong.
And the ability to mount different mesh images to player models in first and thrid person views is documented in the scripts. I forget the exact place, but it was pretty obvious when I looked at the scripts the last time.
Last I have to say on this, if you have the source, then code in the hacky HL / Quake style model rendering.
Either way, good luck.
#33
For anything to look convincing you have to do custom animations for each gun, because a MP5 is two handed and so is an M60 but the size and way the weapons are held are completely different, it will look silly. Even PISTOLS are two handed in real life, and they to differnt in size, shape and hand placement, no one but competition shooters shoot "cowboy style".
If you are doing a fantasy/sci-fi game where you can make all the weapons have the same size grip and hand placements, this is not a problem.
The most awesome example of PERFECT modeling in a FPS is the new Rogue Spear: Raven Sheild.
Notice that third person view does not HAVE to be blocky choppy inaccurate animation. RS:RS does have one advantage, it supposedly supports a parameterizable real time IK skeleton animation system.
The movie download is 54MB but it is well worth it!
05/31/2002 (12:32 pm)
Quote:I don't think that is the right mathematic. It doesn't have to be much work. Many 3rd person character animations for guns can share animations like twohanded guns. You can often copy animations from one character to another with no or small adjustments. First person animations can also be copied from one arm setup to another.
For anything to look convincing you have to do custom animations for each gun, because a MP5 is two handed and so is an M60 but the size and way the weapons are held are completely different, it will look silly. Even PISTOLS are two handed in real life, and they to differnt in size, shape and hand placement, no one but competition shooters shoot "cowboy style".
If you are doing a fantasy/sci-fi game where you can make all the weapons have the same size grip and hand placements, this is not a problem.
The most awesome example of PERFECT modeling in a FPS is the new Rogue Spear: Raven Sheild.
Notice that third person view does not HAVE to be blocky choppy inaccurate animation. RS:RS does have one advantage, it supposedly supports a parameterizable real time IK skeleton animation system.
The movie download is 54MB but it is well worth it!
#34
ok, I was going to post quit a reply here.. but i'm not going to becuase it will probably be too offending..
anyway.. you think you know it all better as much as you want.. I still want to do it the other way. And yes, I do know how the Torque engine works, and no I'm not a newbie either (come down out of your tower, you're no better then the rest of us, if you were so superior what are you doing here in the first place?)
There are people actually wanting to help here, some usefull posts..overread your post and tell me where it helps???
Did you even check out the demo? If so, you would see that cuurently there are no arms. Now this is just a setting in the scripts.. and you can change this so the whole player model is rendered. What you get to see then is the closest LOD of that player model's arms (and whatever), wich still isn't that detailed compared to what you could do if you had the same amount of polygons for just arms and a weapon. This is our point... what we are saying all along.
All we need is the ability to set a different model, wich is probably possible, still haven't had the time to look into it... but some people already pointed out it is.
I'm sorry if this post was offending in any way.. its a bit late overhere and I just get pissed of by people prentending to know all the answers but not really giving any...
05/31/2002 (3:08 pm)
Quote:
And for the record, years of experience do let me know I know better, if you don't understand why someone is right, does not mean they are wrong
ok, I was going to post quit a reply here.. but i'm not going to becuase it will probably be too offending..
anyway.. you think you know it all better as much as you want.. I still want to do it the other way. And yes, I do know how the Torque engine works, and no I'm not a newbie either (come down out of your tower, you're no better then the rest of us, if you were so superior what are you doing here in the first place?)
There are people actually wanting to help here, some usefull posts..overread your post and tell me where it helps???
Did you even check out the demo? If so, you would see that cuurently there are no arms. Now this is just a setting in the scripts.. and you can change this so the whole player model is rendered. What you get to see then is the closest LOD of that player model's arms (and whatever), wich still isn't that detailed compared to what you could do if you had the same amount of polygons for just arms and a weapon. This is our point... what we are saying all along.
All we need is the ability to set a different model, wich is probably possible, still haven't had the time to look into it... but some people already pointed out it is.
I'm sorry if this post was offending in any way.. its a bit late overhere and I just get pissed of by people prentending to know all the answers but not really giving any...
#35
You can often copy animations from one character to another with no or small adjustments.
Jarrod wrote:
For anything to look convincing you have to do custom animations for each gun, because a MP5 is two handed and so is an M60 but the size and way the weapons are held are completely different, it will look silly. Even PISTOLS are two handed in real life, and they to differnt in size, shape and hand placement, no one but competition shooters shoot "cowboy style".
Please read bold text careful. And if you make all gun animations for one character, it's easy to copy those to all other characters. At least in 3D Max with biped. The same for 1st person.
Notice that third person view does not HAVE to be blocky choppy inaccurate animation.
And that's not what we are saying. It's just that you don't win anything on doing advanced animations for 3rd person models. Mostly you see your enemies at far distance and if you get close things are going so fast and you are occupied staying alive or killing the others. No use to waste develop time and game performance on things players doesn't see anyway.
And for the record, years of experience do let me know I know better, if you don't understand why someone is right, does not mean they are wrong.
That is the kind of discussion I hear at kindergarten...
And the ability to mount different mesh images to player models in first and thrid person views is documented in the scripts. I forget the exact place, but it was pretty obvious when I looked at the scripts the last time.
I didn't ask how, just if it's possible. Pity that you with so much wisdom doesn't want to say "yes" or "no".
05/31/2002 (3:24 pm)
I wrote:You can often copy animations from one character to another with no or small adjustments.
Jarrod wrote:
For anything to look convincing you have to do custom animations for each gun, because a MP5 is two handed and so is an M60 but the size and way the weapons are held are completely different, it will look silly. Even PISTOLS are two handed in real life, and they to differnt in size, shape and hand placement, no one but competition shooters shoot "cowboy style".
Please read bold text careful. And if you make all gun animations for one character, it's easy to copy those to all other characters. At least in 3D Max with biped. The same for 1st person.
Notice that third person view does not HAVE to be blocky choppy inaccurate animation.
And that's not what we are saying. It's just that you don't win anything on doing advanced animations for 3rd person models. Mostly you see your enemies at far distance and if you get close things are going so fast and you are occupied staying alive or killing the others. No use to waste develop time and game performance on things players doesn't see anyway.
And for the record, years of experience do let me know I know better, if you don't understand why someone is right, does not mean they are wrong.
That is the kind of discussion I hear at kindergarten...
And the ability to mount different mesh images to player models in first and thrid person views is documented in the scripts. I forget the exact place, but it was pretty obvious when I looked at the scripts the last time.
I didn't ask how, just if it's possible. Pity that you with so much wisdom doesn't want to say "yes" or "no".
#36
Have you come to a conclusion yet? Is it possible to have a separate weapon/forearms model only visible to the client when in 1st person mode, while other players see the regular animations for the 3rd person view? I understand the arguments for not doing this but in my opinion, this looks best for arcade-style FPS's (we won't even have a 3rd person view mode in our game). Also I love the cool idle animations for the weapons in HL, et.c. which is an extremely cheap effect to achieve in 3DSMAX, and would give the player something to watch while tranporting himself over longer distances.
Regarding the problems with creating reload animations for both the player model and the weapon model, if I were _not_ to go with the HL/Quake style, could perhaps be solved by "design-time-mounting" the particular weapon in 3DSMAX, as is done in Torque, and making sure the animations sync? That is, I first create the weapon model and animate its reload sequence (remove clip, insert clip, arm weapon, et.c.). Then I temporarily merge the weapon model with my player model and "mount" it like it would be done in Torque. Finally, I create a player animation that match the reload animation in the weapon model.
However, the HL/Quake/RTCW-style is what we'd really like to go with. Any comments are very much appreciated. Thanks for your time.
Greger Ohlson.
02/19/2003 (6:39 am)
Hi All! I'm currently tackling this problem as well, and I was wondering how you guys have worked it out in your projects (I know this thread is old, but I'll give it a shot before starting a new one)?Have you come to a conclusion yet? Is it possible to have a separate weapon/forearms model only visible to the client when in 1st person mode, while other players see the regular animations for the 3rd person view? I understand the arguments for not doing this but in my opinion, this looks best for arcade-style FPS's (we won't even have a 3rd person view mode in our game). Also I love the cool idle animations for the weapons in HL, et.c. which is an extremely cheap effect to achieve in 3DSMAX, and would give the player something to watch while tranporting himself over longer distances.
Regarding the problems with creating reload animations for both the player model and the weapon model, if I were _not_ to go with the HL/Quake style, could perhaps be solved by "design-time-mounting" the particular weapon in 3DSMAX, as is done in Torque, and making sure the animations sync? That is, I first create the weapon model and animate its reload sequence (remove clip, insert clip, arm weapon, et.c.). Then I temporarily merge the weapon model with my player model and "mount" it like it would be done in Torque. Finally, I create a player animation that match the reload animation in the weapon model.
However, the HL/Quake/RTCW-style is what we'd really like to go with. Any comments are very much appreciated. Thanks for your time.
Greger Ohlson.
#37
02/22/2003 (4:26 am)
The only person I know who has done this properly is the game called crime force. Download it here : www.crimeforce.com
#38
Have a nice day,
Greger.
02/22/2003 (8:59 am)
Thanks Jeff. Checked it out a while back, but never realized that they we're using this approach. Will download it again, and hack it apart.Have a nice day,
Greger.
Torque Owner Jarrod Roberson
The waving motion would have to be included in each animation if done this way also. But I don't see a half-arm movement problem.