Jeff is right. We suck creatively. Let's do something about it.
by Matt W · in Torque Game Engine · 03/01/2002 (2:39 pm) · 47 replies
While I feel we have some very solid projects coming out of Garagegames, we are just climbing the long staircase of game design as opposed to free-climbing some jagged cliff.
I feel my project is very well-designed, and has some very unique features that are innovative and creative. I feel the same way about many of the other projects I've seen around.
So don't think I'm slamming anyone in particular with this post.
We have not tried to really go out on a limb and try to extend the boundaries of gaming or genres, and that's something we should be doing. You can't do high-risk titles in a standard company nowadays because of the cost. We've spent a small amount of money to get here, so let's enjoy the fact that if we fall on our faces we'll walk away unharmed.
I want to work on something truly innovative as a side project to the game I'm working on now. Something that makes people say "Whoa, that's different".
I propose Project Innovation
A game that is designed to shake things up, and really extend beyond a simple genre or formula. A game that epitomizes what indie gaming would be like in an ideal world, and something that when others see it they might be willing to take a larger risk themselves.
I have many ideas... but nothing set. Any genre, any theme, any format. I don't care, I just want to be a part of something that extends beyond "finishing" a product, and more into the realm of artistic masterpiece in terms of design.
Who's up for this? I am.
Post your opinions on such a project, but not the ideas for games. I'd like to see who is interested before brainstorming ideas, since there are so many ways this could head. Sticking to one idea now would only limit our creativity if this gets off the ground.
I feel my project is very well-designed, and has some very unique features that are innovative and creative. I feel the same way about many of the other projects I've seen around.
So don't think I'm slamming anyone in particular with this post.
We have not tried to really go out on a limb and try to extend the boundaries of gaming or genres, and that's something we should be doing. You can't do high-risk titles in a standard company nowadays because of the cost. We've spent a small amount of money to get here, so let's enjoy the fact that if we fall on our faces we'll walk away unharmed.
I want to work on something truly innovative as a side project to the game I'm working on now. Something that makes people say "Whoa, that's different".
I propose Project Innovation
A game that is designed to shake things up, and really extend beyond a simple genre or formula. A game that epitomizes what indie gaming would be like in an ideal world, and something that when others see it they might be willing to take a larger risk themselves.
I have many ideas... but nothing set. Any genre, any theme, any format. I don't care, I just want to be a part of something that extends beyond "finishing" a product, and more into the realm of artistic masterpiece in terms of design.
Who's up for this? I am.
Post your opinions on such a project, but not the ideas for games. I'd like to see who is interested before brainstorming ideas, since there are so many ways this could head. Sticking to one idea now would only limit our creativity if this gets off the ground.
#2
Simple is what I'm hoping for. An idea, not really utilized in a 3d game before would be perfect and require less work than an intricate game that fits into a genre or formula like all of the projects currently being worked on.
03/01/2002 (3:21 pm)
By masterpiece I meant "truly innovative, but a good game". In terms of innovation, that's a masterpiece. Games don't have to be "super innovative" to be a masterpiece, but I want to get some project that is innovative for the sake of being innovative. Right now, we have some good stuff coming up but isn't "super innovative".Simple is what I'm hoping for. An idea, not really utilized in a 3d game before would be perfect and require less work than an intricate game that fits into a genre or formula like all of the projects currently being worked on.
#3
I hope this forum helps.
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/01/2002 (3:44 pm)
Umm. I didn't say we suck:) I said I was disappointed. But, hey, we are really only six months old, so I'll cut some slack.I hope this forum helps.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#4
be a cool twist on the RTS genre.
-Tim aka Spock
03/01/2002 (4:54 pm)
I thought of an idea for an rts....I think it would be cool..not sure how innovative it is. A RTS with supernatural creatures. You could have a vampire lead a group of zombies and werewolves into battle against a Necromancer leading a group of skeletons and ghosts.be a cool twist on the RTS genre.
-Tim aka Spock
#5
03/01/2002 (5:03 pm)
speak for yourself I have a creative way to use torque. . .if only programmers would tag on to my idea . . I'd make you rich 
#7
03/01/2002 (5:23 pm)
Read Jeff's .plan, you'll understand this thread then.
#8
Oh, and if I'm wrong please show me where I can go to dispel the thought that so far GG community has been pretty "uncreative". Rosenbaum, I'd like to hear your idea but I have a feeling yours is either unrealistically designed, or just like most of the other "innovative" games we've seen so far.
Don't get me wrong, the project I'm working on has many features not seen in Multiplayer FPSes but what I'm talking about is "super creative" projects. Things we wouldn't see in the major gaming scene because they'd be too risky.
Please, I want to be proven wrong, but your "nah you are wrong" really doesn't do much but prepare me for someone who's got another game idea that really doesn't do much but improve upon Quake/Counter-Strike.
03/01/2002 (5:45 pm)
The name escapes me, but that's been done (supernatural RTS) just last year. Was supposed to be pretty good.Oh, and if I'm wrong please show me where I can go to dispel the thought that so far GG community has been pretty "uncreative". Rosenbaum, I'd like to hear your idea but I have a feeling yours is either unrealistically designed, or just like most of the other "innovative" games we've seen so far.
Don't get me wrong, the project I'm working on has many features not seen in Multiplayer FPSes but what I'm talking about is "super creative" projects. Things we wouldn't see in the major gaming scene because they'd be too risky.
Please, I want to be proven wrong, but your "nah you are wrong" really doesn't do much but prepare me for someone who's got another game idea that really doesn't do much but improve upon Quake/Counter-Strike.
#9
Did it do anything really innovative? It had a dated graphics engine, pretty standard plot (science experiment went wrong, and you have to fix it), and the only thing that I can see that it did better than others was AI.
The feel of the game made Halflife great. Making a great game isn't about stacking different ideas together. I mean do we really need a SciFi Cowboy MMORTS/RPG/FPS with voice chat?
Getting the atmosphere and game balance makes the game great.
Look at Blizzards games... nothing really innovative there. Just well thought out, balanced gameplay.
03/01/2002 (7:31 pm)
Lets look at the best (or most popular) game in recent times. Halflife.Did it do anything really innovative? It had a dated graphics engine, pretty standard plot (science experiment went wrong, and you have to fix it), and the only thing that I can see that it did better than others was AI.
The feel of the game made Halflife great. Making a great game isn't about stacking different ideas together. I mean do we really need a SciFi Cowboy MMORTS/RPG/FPS with voice chat?
Getting the atmosphere and game balance makes the game great.
Look at Blizzards games... nothing really innovative there. Just well thought out, balanced gameplay.
#11
03/01/2002 (9:56 pm)
I just thought of a great way to make a console game out of swing dancing. I doubt you'll need to kill me.
#12
03/02/2002 (11:26 am)
The good ideas will come whenever they're ready. Just be sure to help out the people that come up with them whenever they decide to tell you about their designs.
#13
Good wine is not made on it's creation day.
It must be aged.
(But don't wait too long, or you'll have vinegar!)
My metafor.
03/02/2002 (1:53 pm)
Jeff,Good wine is not made on it's creation day.
It must be aged.
(But don't wait too long, or you'll have vinegar!)
My metafor.
#14
What I'm saying is, how can you really define and aim for an innovative game to develop? Doesn't the gaming public and all the factors affect how "innovative" or "unique" a game is?
(I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm just asking questions and making points. This post is not intended against any projects or individuals)
03/02/2002 (2:03 pm)
You know, as a development team, I don't think you can call your own game "innovative" or "unique" or "one of a kind." I think it's more or less a fluke when it actually happens. You know, dumb luck. I always bring up Counter-Strike, and I'll do it again. Seriously...who would have thought this game would be as huge as it is? I think it's more or less the gaming public (from gamers to reviewers) who decide the fate of the game. It's a whole lot of different factors that affect what will happen to the game (graphics, gameplay, promotion, community, timeframe of release). For instance, a good example of timeframe of release is C&C2. This game sucked. Hard. Now, do you think it would have sucked as much if StarCraft came AFTER and not BEFORE? It's a tough call...What I'm saying is, how can you really define and aim for an innovative game to develop? Doesn't the gaming public and all the factors affect how "innovative" or "unique" a game is?
(I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm just asking questions and making points. This post is not intended against any projects or individuals)
#15
-it has been done before (or at least most aspects of it).... so i have an example to work towards. Most important of all, the egnine is designed for it.
-the other ideas needed engine changes.. and I could not find a engine programmer, one wich wansn't afraid of math (even tough i gladly would pay em his license back)
Now you can say i chose the easy way... but don't we all have to learn to stand on our feet before we learn to walk? I mean... its pretty normal not that much original games are being develloped here. 90% or more never released a game before. So, most of us chose the easy way.
After my current project however we'll make some more innovative games (I even started writing all my ideas down in the form of design documents)
(and matt, looking at your project website i see you did pretty much the same thing.... a non original concept wich is spiced up)
03/02/2002 (2:14 pm)
I have some good ideas for innovative games... but, i chose a less innovative (but still pretty original) concept for the following reasons:-it has been done before (or at least most aspects of it).... so i have an example to work towards. Most important of all, the egnine is designed for it.
-the other ideas needed engine changes.. and I could not find a engine programmer, one wich wansn't afraid of math (even tough i gladly would pay em his license back)
Now you can say i chose the easy way... but don't we all have to learn to stand on our feet before we learn to walk? I mean... its pretty normal not that much original games are being develloped here. 90% or more never released a game before. So, most of us chose the easy way.
After my current project however we'll make some more innovative games (I even started writing all my ideas down in the form of design documents)
(and matt, looking at your project website i see you did pretty much the same thing.... a non original concept wich is spiced up)
#16
/me searches through his stack of game CDs...
Thief? Completely new approach to FPS games, and it was awesome.
Homeworld?
Civilization?
Sim City?
Xcom?
And the list goes on.
There are two ways to make a great game:
1. Quality: For example, something like Halo would fit in here. NOTHING new or innoventive (other than the graphics), but the game is awesome, even on a crappy console. The trick here is just to make the game so high quality that it is really fun. Blizzard games also fall into this category.
2. Great Idea: Like the above listed games. These are the greatest games of all time, even if they dont have the best graphics, etc. They are genuinely fun because of their new approach.
At least, thats how I see it.
03/02/2002 (2:17 pm)
To counter your arguement Anthony... :)/me searches through his stack of game CDs...
Thief? Completely new approach to FPS games, and it was awesome.
Homeworld?
Civilization?
Sim City?
Xcom?
And the list goes on.
There are two ways to make a great game:
1. Quality: For example, something like Halo would fit in here. NOTHING new or innoventive (other than the graphics), but the game is awesome, even on a crappy console. The trick here is just to make the game so high quality that it is really fun. Blizzard games also fall into this category.
2. Great Idea: Like the above listed games. These are the greatest games of all time, even if they dont have the best graphics, etc. They are genuinely fun because of their new approach.
At least, thats how I see it.
#17
03/02/2002 (5:28 pm)
Just make the games you like to make. If it's new and unique, woooha. Make your own genre, go for it! If it's a boring clone FPS but you liked making it, whats the problem ? Each developer will make what suits them. I was a bit dissapointed by Jeff's statement. After reading further I could understand it, but I think it left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I hope they will support the FPS games as much as the more off the wall types.
#18
03/02/2002 (5:34 pm)
Yeah, I agree with Shawn here on this one. Jeff's attitude towards game ideas is a little erm, grumpy. And he's of GarageGames, the site that's going to be publishing our games. I'd hate to see a really good FPS from a group on this site be put on the backburner in favor of something else just because it's "another FPS." Seems like it might be another Sim City situation that he described (Maxis had a hard time getting recognition when it was first released).
#19
I don't doubt the stuff we'll see come out of GG will be great, but I wanna work on something really different as well as something really cool (which I am doing now)
03/02/2002 (5:39 pm)
I am not pessimistic, I just have a strange urge to create some really unique game.I don't doubt the stuff we'll see come out of GG will be great, but I wanna work on something really different as well as something really cool (which I am doing now)
#20
How often am i supposed to play the same game with new units and a halfharted change in the storyline. I realize that when you invest that kind of money into a product you would like to reap as much benefits out of it as you can.
But torque imho torque or a similar low cost tool is a great possibility i enables a "indy" scene to go into direction the commercial scene cannot because it cannot afford to fail. Just like Video for the movies.
There are a few innovative concepts out there Parappa the Rapper (even though they made a sequel), Kuri Kuri mix a completely cooperative Game. I think we should add to that list
03/03/2002 (4:18 am)
Owning a mac where the gaming opportunities are a bit more reduced i turn to the playstation to play most of the games i play. But i have to agree with the side that say that there is no innovation out there. Just look at how many followups there are to games. Warcraft III, Diablo II, Tekken 4, Age of Whoever ... the list goes on and on.How often am i supposed to play the same game with new units and a halfharted change in the storyline. I realize that when you invest that kind of money into a product you would like to reap as much benefits out of it as you can.
But torque imho torque or a similar low cost tool is a great possibility i enables a "indy" scene to go into direction the commercial scene cannot because it cannot afford to fail. Just like Video for the movies.
There are a few innovative concepts out there Parappa the Rapper (even though they made a sequel), Kuri Kuri mix a completely cooperative Game. I think we should add to that list
Torque Owner Anthony McCrary
The best work I have ever has been done in the shortest amount of time (or what seemed like), and with probably as little thought as possible. Things just "came to me".
It's easy and possible to "over do" something by thinking about it too much.