Alpha2 1.1 is live
by Josh Williams · in Torque Game Builder · 12/23/2005 (12:28 pm) · 37 replies
Hey guys,
We put up a new verison of the Alpha. :) Just in time for Christmas, we seem to be on a holiday release schedule.
This new version includes the t2d3DShapes, bug fixes and more stuff. I'm hoping that the next release will include some editors and the merge with TGE 1.4! We'll see how it goes.
Thanks very much to Melv, Matt Langley, and Paul Scott for all their work on this! Also, remember to checkout the T2D section on TDN... lots of great new docs up there, built for T2D 1.1. :)
Sorry for the short post, lots left to do today. I'll check in later.
Please note... when you report bugs, please mark them as Alpha 2! And if you feel really helpful, in your bug reports, please help us indentify where in the code, script or assets the bug lies... and if you feel extra, extra helpful, go ahead and provide a nice fix! Thanks. The whole idea with these alphas is to give everyone a preview of what's to come, give you early updates, and hopefully have everyone help out making the engine better.
We put up a new verison of the Alpha. :) Just in time for Christmas, we seem to be on a holiday release schedule.
This new version includes the t2d3DShapes, bug fixes and more stuff. I'm hoping that the next release will include some editors and the merge with TGE 1.4! We'll see how it goes.
Thanks very much to Melv, Matt Langley, and Paul Scott for all their work on this! Also, remember to checkout the T2D section on TDN... lots of great new docs up there, built for T2D 1.1. :)
Sorry for the short post, lots left to do today. I'll check in later.
Please note... when you report bugs, please mark them as Alpha 2! And if you feel really helpful, in your bug reports, please help us indentify where in the code, script or assets the bug lies... and if you feel extra, extra helpful, go ahead and provide a nice fix! Thanks. The whole idea with these alphas is to give everyone a preview of what's to come, give you early updates, and hopefully have everyone help out making the engine better.
#2
12/23/2005 (1:26 pm)
Downloading it now!!! :)
#3
12/23/2005 (2:17 pm)
Very cool. i wont have time to play with this until jan, but i am definatly looking forward to it.
#4
12/23/2005 (2:40 pm)
Sweet :) I've literally just started a new project with 1.1, so I'll move over to Alpha 2 and see what happens. 
#5
12/23/2005 (3:45 pm)
Quote:Ditto, most likely. Can't wait!
Very cool. i wont have time to play with this until jan, but i am definatly looking forward to it.
#6
You can find the tutorial on TDN here or just get the download directly outside of TDN from here.
Happy Xmas everyone!
- Melv.
12/24/2005 (10:39 am)
I've just added an example DTS shape plus animations (Reinstated Soldier from Strategem) that is used in the 3D shape tutorial on TDN or the PDF that comes with the T2D alpha#2.You can find the tutorial on TDN here or just get the download directly outside of TDN from here.
Happy Xmas everyone!
- Melv.
#8
12/24/2005 (11:22 am)
Linux version working, required changes submitted to Josh.. Enjoy :)
#9
12/25/2005 (11:08 am)
I hope the Mac project file got some Christmas cheer. :) Thanks for the update, guys!
#10
I dont mean to be difficult, but these releases are getting to be frustrating. Sure t2d3DShapes is a cool new feature, but it is not what I paid for when I bought T2D early adopter back in May of 2005. Why not concentrate on fixing bugs and implementing the features that were promised when T2D was first offered as a product?
12/30/2005 (12:50 pm)
Hello,I dont mean to be difficult, but these releases are getting to be frustrating. Sure t2d3DShapes is a cool new feature, but it is not what I paid for when I bought T2D early adopter back in May of 2005. Why not concentrate on fixing bugs and implementing the features that were promised when T2D was first offered as a product?
#11
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=36609
12/30/2005 (1:09 pm)
@ Christopher - Early Adopter, we asked for the Alpha. Patiencewww.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=36609
#12
12/30/2005 (1:19 pm)
Yes, I've seen that thread. I appreciate that the developers are keeping us up to date on their progress, but I am concerned about the fact that new features are being implemented before old problems are adressed.
#13
That being said, bug fixing is, in most development nomenclatures, a post-Alpha task. Ergo, it comes after all the T2D 1.1 alphas are done. In many theories, it comes after all feature development, which would put it between Early Adopter and Release versions, accepting that some bugs (show-stoppers that interfere with major features, etc) obviously need to be fixed to make any particular release worthy of release.
While I agree that there has been some significant misprioritization of several features in T2D's development (a criticism that unfortunately carries through to even the most recent Alpha releases), it is not fair to say that this carries over to bug fixing, due to the reasons I explained above.
12/30/2005 (4:19 pm)
Christopher's question is one of priorities, which has always been my chief criticism of the development of T2D. Which is more important to T2D: 3D shape rendering or 2D animation support? The highest priority items, ie: the most important, should be worked on first.That being said, bug fixing is, in most development nomenclatures, a post-Alpha task. Ergo, it comes after all the T2D 1.1 alphas are done. In many theories, it comes after all feature development, which would put it between Early Adopter and Release versions, accepting that some bugs (show-stoppers that interfere with major features, etc) obviously need to be fixed to make any particular release worthy of release.
While I agree that there has been some significant misprioritization of several features in T2D's development (a criticism that unfortunately carries through to even the most recent Alpha releases), it is not fair to say that this carries over to bug fixing, due to the reasons I explained above.
#14
To folks like Christopher, I say: fix it yourself if it is a critical show stopper. This is one of the BIG benefits of having the source code. Assuming that you've clearly articulated your issue in the Report Bugs forum, you can either wait for Melv to fix it, or fix it yourself. There are a number of "critical" features that are must have for my title that Melv hasn't implemented; here's a couple of examples: 2D bitmapped fonts, line drawing, arbitrary polygon rendering, support for collision polygons that are non-convex, support for collision polygons that change per-frame with an animation, and a key-frame animation system that's more sophisticated than just frame x and time y. What am I doing about it? mostly building this functionality myself for my title. When the functionality is general purpose enough, I share it with the rest of the community. When it's not, I don't bother.
The important thing is: no matter how much work Melv does, it will never be "good enough." He will never implement everyone's pet feature. There will always be at least one feature per title that you will probably need to code yourself, regardless of how far T2D gets. That is not failure. To the extent that T2D is saving us from writing 95 - 99% of the engine ourselves, GG has completely succeeded.
12/31/2005 (12:58 am)
I agree with Smaug that most bug fixing is typically done after all features are in. Having worked on commercial, off the shelf packaged software for a decade, I know that this model works well, even if it is frustrating to users who have a "pet bug" that they want to see resolved.To folks like Christopher, I say: fix it yourself if it is a critical show stopper. This is one of the BIG benefits of having the source code. Assuming that you've clearly articulated your issue in the Report Bugs forum, you can either wait for Melv to fix it, or fix it yourself. There are a number of "critical" features that are must have for my title that Melv hasn't implemented; here's a couple of examples: 2D bitmapped fonts, line drawing, arbitrary polygon rendering, support for collision polygons that are non-convex, support for collision polygons that change per-frame with an animation, and a key-frame animation system that's more sophisticated than just frame x and time y. What am I doing about it? mostly building this functionality myself for my title. When the functionality is general purpose enough, I share it with the rest of the community. When it's not, I don't bother.
The important thing is: no matter how much work Melv does, it will never be "good enough." He will never implement everyone's pet feature. There will always be at least one feature per title that you will probably need to code yourself, regardless of how far T2D gets. That is not failure. To the extent that T2D is saving us from writing 95 - 99% of the engine ourselves, GG has completely succeeded.
#15
12/31/2005 (12:58 am)
@Christopher: If you feel that certain features / bugs are not prioritized correctly, suggest a priority list. I read these forums several times a day and I don't think I've ever seen you suggest a list of issues that "must" be fixed with relative priority to your title. If you haven't, how can you possibly whine about not having your needs met? What are your needs? I hate to call you out specifically, but your post as is just isn't helpful. It's noise. If you want action and support, suggest what's most important to you. Melv listens. For almost every issue I've brought up, he has followed up quickly and in many cases given me a bug number to know that my issue is being tracked.
#16
Fortunately, Melv is not just building an engine for puzzle games. I am a huge fan of the Nintendo Game Boy and DS. Most of the games on those platforms are 2D and if you look at the breadth of technology used by different 2D games you see that Melv is actually building the right stuff for a 2D "platform" and fortunately, not just a 2D "genre."
12/31/2005 (1:06 am)
There's one more thing that I think is worth pointing out: T2D is Melv's baby. Melv does not work for Garage Games. They are his publisher. That means that to some extent, Melv can do whatever he wants with his product. Melv has particular interests that he thinks are cool, even if you don't. He obviously thinks that t2dShape3D is "cool." I happen to strongly agree with him and applaud his efforts. I can imagine how to other people, this could be seen as "wasted effort." For example, if my goal was to only ever create Tetris knock offs, then Melv is "going in the wrong direction and has completely failed."Fortunately, Melv is not just building an engine for puzzle games. I am a huge fan of the Nintendo Game Boy and DS. Most of the games on those platforms are 2D and if you look at the breadth of technology used by different 2D games you see that Melv is actually building the right stuff for a 2D "platform" and fortunately, not just a 2D "genre."
#17
I am sure that these things will be addressed before the product is released. This was,afterall, just posted because we asked to see what they where working on.
We can't have everything the way we want.
12/31/2005 (2:15 am)
I understand Chris's concern with seing bugs that existed from before not being fixed. But like Smaug said(oww it hurts to say that) Alpha products are generally proof of concept releases and in no way intended to be used as a final product. I am sure that these things will be addressed before the product is released. This was,afterall, just posted because we asked to see what they where working on.
We can't have everything the way we want.
#18
I could get a little annoyed by this post but I won't simply because I can understand the misconception of what is going on (or not) behind the scenes because there's very little exposure of it. I will say that what goes into the release is not my call; GG actually own T2D. If I were to work on things that I wanted to then you'd know what misprioritization was; that's not the case. Everyone got to see T2D when it was a new-born and the stuff that was released was an odd-ball mix of features that was originally criticised for being a mis-prioritization of features and I tried my best to address that by detailing how T2D came about. What you got originally was a glossed-up version of what I originally developed. We knew we had major functionality to add and this is what we've been doing. The changes to the basic-systems in T2D have absorbed most of my year and I think we've done a great job.
For lots of people, I can understand them saying, why isn't feature X in yet instead of this shape thingy! A weekend out was hardly a replacement for weeks/months of development.
In the end, I'm not bothered whether the fact that we're calling "adding features whilst fixing existing bugs" an "alpha" release or a "chocolate cake" release; the name is completely unimportant to me. What does matter is that we've tried to respond to the criticism that releases are not coming regularly enough and bug-fixes are not seemingly being dealt with (because of the long time between releases).
We do not guarantee that all fixes known have been fixed. This is either because we don't get to it, cannot easily fix it without breaking existing stuff, have a broader way of fixing it (typically alongside other bugs) or deem it as not a T2D problem but a user problem in which case we make something simpler or try to explain the issue.
Features such as advanced-animation, vector-support, better graphics-layer, more control over image-maps, merging with latest TGE, networking, release-packaging utility, game-builder interface, professional editor tools, resource-encryption, yada yada have designs and some are being worked-on right now. You haven't got them yet, it doesn't mean we've forgot or are off in the blue-sky writing "cool" things. There's also alot of "future" work going on behind the scenes at GG and T2D has to be part of that. We're not just envisioning what the final v1.1 release will be, we're looking beyond that.
If you haven't got the patience or T2D doesn't yet have all the features needed to write your game then either wait, write it yourself or do a different game. In the meantime, we'll continue to fix bugs (which I spend most of my time doing) whilst trying to move T2D forward. There's been talk about showing a tech-roadmap but don't hold me to that. Even if we were, it would make your choices the same. You wouldn't have it now unless you are the kind of developer that thinks waiting for a month or two for the first-release of a feature is better than adding it yourself and moving forward with your game.
I will say that there are game-studios using v1.0.2 (not the alpha) that have and are currently writing games and they're not all simple casual games either. Work with it or work around it but in the end, we'll get it in there for you.
Patience Luke.
- Melv.
12/31/2005 (6:08 am)
I think you are also under the misunderstanding that the stuff that gets added into each release has just been developed since the last one; that's just not true and isn't an indication of our priorities. The Shapes thing was completed early October and it was something that was already nearly complete as it was developed for Strategem; I just spent a Saturday finishing it and a Sunday afternoon typing up some doco for it. For me, this was a nice break from fixing bugs because this is what I do, day in, day out, fix bugs. This was a "fun" object to have and is very powerful; it's hardly distracted me from the core development though. It's nice to stagger things like this in releases as it makes them more "fun". I'm sorry some folks don't see it for what it is.I could get a little annoyed by this post but I won't simply because I can understand the misconception of what is going on (or not) behind the scenes because there's very little exposure of it. I will say that what goes into the release is not my call; GG actually own T2D. If I were to work on things that I wanted to then you'd know what misprioritization was; that's not the case. Everyone got to see T2D when it was a new-born and the stuff that was released was an odd-ball mix of features that was originally criticised for being a mis-prioritization of features and I tried my best to address that by detailing how T2D came about. What you got originally was a glossed-up version of what I originally developed. We knew we had major functionality to add and this is what we've been doing. The changes to the basic-systems in T2D have absorbed most of my year and I think we've done a great job.
For lots of people, I can understand them saying, why isn't feature X in yet instead of this shape thingy! A weekend out was hardly a replacement for weeks/months of development.
In the end, I'm not bothered whether the fact that we're calling "adding features whilst fixing existing bugs" an "alpha" release or a "chocolate cake" release; the name is completely unimportant to me. What does matter is that we've tried to respond to the criticism that releases are not coming regularly enough and bug-fixes are not seemingly being dealt with (because of the long time between releases).
We do not guarantee that all fixes known have been fixed. This is either because we don't get to it, cannot easily fix it without breaking existing stuff, have a broader way of fixing it (typically alongside other bugs) or deem it as not a T2D problem but a user problem in which case we make something simpler or try to explain the issue.
Features such as advanced-animation, vector-support, better graphics-layer, more control over image-maps, merging with latest TGE, networking, release-packaging utility, game-builder interface, professional editor tools, resource-encryption, yada yada have designs and some are being worked-on right now. You haven't got them yet, it doesn't mean we've forgot or are off in the blue-sky writing "cool" things. There's also alot of "future" work going on behind the scenes at GG and T2D has to be part of that. We're not just envisioning what the final v1.1 release will be, we're looking beyond that.
If you haven't got the patience or T2D doesn't yet have all the features needed to write your game then either wait, write it yourself or do a different game. In the meantime, we'll continue to fix bugs (which I spend most of my time doing) whilst trying to move T2D forward. There's been talk about showing a tech-roadmap but don't hold me to that. Even if we were, it would make your choices the same. You wouldn't have it now unless you are the kind of developer that thinks waiting for a month or two for the first-release of a feature is better than adding it yourself and moving forward with your game.
I will say that there are game-studios using v1.0.2 (not the alpha) that have and are currently writing games and they're not all simple casual games either. Work with it or work around it but in the end, we'll get it in there for you.
Patience Luke.
- Melv.
#19
Plus it doesn't make sense to fix some bugs if you know what you are going to add is going to create more bugs.
Lets just wait it out and see.
12/31/2005 (11:36 am)
Like me. I am jus hanging out dablling with things. learning things and waiting for a more complete product. Just because it isn't finished, doesn't mean that you can't learn from it.Plus it doesn't make sense to fix some bugs if you know what you are going to add is going to create more bugs.
Lets just wait it out and see.
#20
I am trying to be as civil as possible here. I understand that you guys are working hard to add things in, but how about finishing what you set off to do in the beginning? I remember hearing a while ago, when we were first considering using t2d, that there would be a final version out in the summer of '05, then that got pushed back to "the end of the year". What is the current timetable?
12/31/2005 (1:12 pm)
My priority list is really just having a bug free release of 1.0 and packaging utility. That's really all that I paid for. I guess what bothers me most is that there's allready work being done on a 1.1 alpha, while 1.0 was never released in a bug free version. I am trying to be as civil as possible here. I understand that you guys are working hard to add things in, but how about finishing what you set off to do in the beginning? I remember hearing a while ago, when we were first considering using t2d, that there would be a final version out in the summer of '05, then that got pushed back to "the end of the year". What is the current timetable?
Associate David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake
I should have it by New Year's!