Game Engines
by Tshuan Samba · in General Discussion · 02/26/2002 (2:30 pm) · 26 replies
I need help on what engines to use for a action rpg:
I've looked into:
Lithtech
Tourqe
The Quake 3 engine
The new unreal engine
quest3d
3dgamestudio
genesis
If you know of anyother good ones please post
I've looked into:
Lithtech
Tourqe
The Quake 3 engine
The new unreal engine
quest3d
3dgamestudio
genesis
If you know of anyother good ones please post
#2
None of the other "cheap" engines have been proven in a real enironment like TGE has.
02/26/2002 (3:33 pm)
From what I have seen, Torque is the best deal.None of the other "cheap" engines have been proven in a real enironment like TGE has.
#3
Obviously all stated below is my opinion, and may not be in line with up to date info (I did this a few months back)
When I went through this excercise my choices where:
Lithtech : Similar setup / license to GG but with Real. Now I don't like Real as a company one bit (you try find the free player on their web site). But i've really liked a lot of the released lithtech games (shogo / blood 2 are underated), NOLF was ace. But lithtech does have some serious 'gotcha' flaws. This was a while back when I looked but they also had a much older version than current for licenses of this nature. To me this shows from the start they're not willing to support indy developers (indy's get outdated tech... games don't sell, vicious circle)
Powerrender : I personally like this engine, Chris E is a helpful... err 'vocal' chap but obviously knows what he's doing (take a look at PowerRenderX!). But to me it suffers from a chronical lack of documentation. Seeming to follow the mindset of why waste time on documentation when you can be adding a spiffy feature. And the developer community is somewhat less visable/helpful than torques. Without a lot of time, it would be hard to complete a sizeable product with it. It's also missing any kind of networking. Revised pricing is less suitable to one-man band operations. Worth looking at though. I'd say it's graphically superior to torque and may suit a slower pace RPG better.
I started off with this engine, but i'm not a competent enough programmer to make it work properly without detailed docs / tutorials (and couldn't afford the source at the time). A major reason I moved to Torque, seems i'm not the only one either as i've seen a few projects make this move.
Wild Tangent : A very interesting / promising engine. Again another similar arrangment to GG. Nice demos, not bad docs. Despite what they say I think you're stuck with JAVA to do anything clever with it though. Using the games seems a bit unnatural though (but you can do .exe ones too). I've not seen any demos of a true full blown environment yet (the space sim using it is very good though). Performance seemed an issue. I'll be using it for another project of mine, but not my first one. Worth a look.
Torque : Ha ha, you're in the right place for that one :) Fairly complete offering. Excellent helpful community and staff. It was definatly released premature (intentionally, and it's done well for it), people are getting to know it well now. Seems to have 'holes' in the functionality that are eventually being plugged. Obviously I/we're biased here though. Guess the fact there hasn't been a game released with it yet (tribes2 obviously, but not a pure torque game) might count against it.
I never played with any of the others deeply, something like dark basic or the other easier engines seem to suffer for it. If you want to write a game to play it rather than sell it, don't discount them. Always a good idea to start simple and work your way up.
02/26/2002 (4:11 pm)
I think anyone seriously looking at making there own game has faced this question, and as pointed out, unless you've got some serious money your options are more limited.Obviously all stated below is my opinion, and may not be in line with up to date info (I did this a few months back)
When I went through this excercise my choices where:
Lithtech : Similar setup / license to GG but with Real. Now I don't like Real as a company one bit (you try find the free player on their web site). But i've really liked a lot of the released lithtech games (shogo / blood 2 are underated), NOLF was ace. But lithtech does have some serious 'gotcha' flaws. This was a while back when I looked but they also had a much older version than current for licenses of this nature. To me this shows from the start they're not willing to support indy developers (indy's get outdated tech... games don't sell, vicious circle)
Powerrender : I personally like this engine, Chris E is a helpful... err 'vocal' chap but obviously knows what he's doing (take a look at PowerRenderX!). But to me it suffers from a chronical lack of documentation. Seeming to follow the mindset of why waste time on documentation when you can be adding a spiffy feature. And the developer community is somewhat less visable/helpful than torques. Without a lot of time, it would be hard to complete a sizeable product with it. It's also missing any kind of networking. Revised pricing is less suitable to one-man band operations. Worth looking at though. I'd say it's graphically superior to torque and may suit a slower pace RPG better.
I started off with this engine, but i'm not a competent enough programmer to make it work properly without detailed docs / tutorials (and couldn't afford the source at the time). A major reason I moved to Torque, seems i'm not the only one either as i've seen a few projects make this move.
Wild Tangent : A very interesting / promising engine. Again another similar arrangment to GG. Nice demos, not bad docs. Despite what they say I think you're stuck with JAVA to do anything clever with it though. Using the games seems a bit unnatural though (but you can do .exe ones too). I've not seen any demos of a true full blown environment yet (the space sim using it is very good though). Performance seemed an issue. I'll be using it for another project of mine, but not my first one. Worth a look.
Torque : Ha ha, you're in the right place for that one :) Fairly complete offering. Excellent helpful community and staff. It was definatly released premature (intentionally, and it's done well for it), people are getting to know it well now. Seems to have 'holes' in the functionality that are eventually being plugged. Obviously I/we're biased here though. Guess the fact there hasn't been a game released with it yet (tribes2 obviously, but not a pure torque game) might count against it.
I never played with any of the others deeply, something like dark basic or the other easier engines seem to suffer for it. If you want to write a game to play it rather than sell it, don't discount them. Always a good idea to start simple and work your way up.
#4
02/26/2002 (6:03 pm)
well unreal is 10,000 quake 3 is about 20,000 plus 1,500 per title, so I think that I will go with tourqe were can I find power render X?
#5
You must be confused. The Quake 2 engine can be licensed for $10000. The Quake 3 engine can only be licensed for "$250000 guarantee, against 5% royalty of the wholesale price of the title". Definately not cheap. On top of that, they don't license it to whoever has the cash, but only to the people they deem worthy.
relevant link: http://www.idsoftware.com/corporate/idtech/index.html
On another note, It should be emphasized that Torque is also multi platform, something that lithtech can't claim. They seem to be very tied down to DirectX.
02/26/2002 (8:57 pm)
Andrew:You must be confused. The Quake 2 engine can be licensed for $10000. The Quake 3 engine can only be licensed for "$250000 guarantee, against 5% royalty of the wholesale price of the title". Definately not cheap. On top of that, they don't license it to whoever has the cash, but only to the people they deem worthy.
relevant link: http://www.idsoftware.com/corporate/idtech/index.html
On another note, It should be emphasized that Torque is also multi platform, something that lithtech can't claim. They seem to be very tied down to DirectX.
#6
The Real Networks/Lithtech license was attractive at first. You get full access to the Lithtech SDK and tools... but in order to use it free of charge you must agree to an exclusive publishing deal through Real Networks, which must be first approved by Real Networks. Basically, it appeared to me to be a use at your own risk proposition. No guarantee that your game would ever see light of day. And if you decided to publish outside of Real Networks agreement, you are stuck with then paying a LithTech licensing fee. $75K at the minimum.
Some other options you may not have explored:
Crystal Space - this one never really has even reached a 1.0 stage, and it doesn't look up to par with current engines. But it has a fairly interesting isometric feature that I liked.
Destiny 3D - the successor of Genesis 3D. Getting all my information second hand here from one of my partners on this one... lots of hype, claims that it will be better than the Quake 3 engine, etc... but so far it seems mostly talk. Nothing yet to back up these claims, the engine is still in development and in pieces that don't necessarily mesh together well. But if they can come out with something to back up the talk, it might be worth checking out. For a membership fee to their website.
02/26/2002 (9:22 pm)
PowerRender can be found at http://www.powerrender.com/. This also contains a link for PowerRender X (which I had not heard of until today). When I first looked at this a couple months ago, I was fairly impressed. But I couldn't get any saved maps to load in the world editor without crashing. Might have been a Windows XP thing, might have been problems with video drivers, I don't know. I haven't gone back since. But it does have some cool demos (especially one rather nice character animation of a knight) that show off some features that Torque lacks, such as bump mapping.The Real Networks/Lithtech license was attractive at first. You get full access to the Lithtech SDK and tools... but in order to use it free of charge you must agree to an exclusive publishing deal through Real Networks, which must be first approved by Real Networks. Basically, it appeared to me to be a use at your own risk proposition. No guarantee that your game would ever see light of day. And if you decided to publish outside of Real Networks agreement, you are stuck with then paying a LithTech licensing fee. $75K at the minimum.
Some other options you may not have explored:
Crystal Space - this one never really has even reached a 1.0 stage, and it doesn't look up to par with current engines. But it has a fairly interesting isometric feature that I liked.
Destiny 3D - the successor of Genesis 3D. Getting all my information second hand here from one of my partners on this one... lots of hype, claims that it will be better than the Quake 3 engine, etc... but so far it seems mostly talk. Nothing yet to back up these claims, the engine is still in development and in pieces that don't necessarily mesh together well. But if they can come out with something to back up the talk, it might be worth checking out. For a membership fee to their website.
#7
They are promising a "Professional" version in a few months that has good performance with BSP among other features. It looks nice, but the language is a very very very very watered down "BASIC" sort of languge. Advanced features and quality networking will be pretty much impossible.
If you just want to fiddle around (like a kid with legos) try this out.
I Don't even think it's a discussion for people going to produce a retail product. Torque is a solid engine, amazing netcode, and a tiny price. Real's license just is too cryptic, and form what I've heard problematic. Even still, I'm all over Torque for its netcode and terrain. Two key features to he project I'm working on.
02/26/2002 (10:16 pm)
Another option is Dark Basic. Right now, it's slow, unwieldy and very limited.They are promising a "Professional" version in a few months that has good performance with BSP among other features. It looks nice, but the language is a very very very very watered down "BASIC" sort of languge. Advanced features and quality networking will be pretty much impossible.
If you just want to fiddle around (like a kid with legos) try this out.
I Don't even think it's a discussion for people going to produce a retail product. Torque is a solid engine, amazing netcode, and a tiny price. Real's license just is too cryptic, and form what I've heard problematic. Even still, I'm all over Torque for its netcode and terrain. Two key features to he project I'm working on.
#8
02/26/2002 (10:30 pm)
Just to name some more: check out The Nebula Device (www.radonlabs.de, powerful and cross-platform with TCL scripting, but lack of documentation, no in-game-editors or other handy stuff, ... completely open source, though...) and Fly3D (www.fly3d.com.br, version 1.0 is open source, but the new version is not and will cost you 10.000 $; it has some neat plugins and exporters and some type of editor ....) - I've tried both for a couple of weeks... but believe me, once you have seen and especially USED Torque, you would never want to go back to any of these... ;)
#9
02/26/2002 (10:45 pm)
Oh, how about BlitzBasic? http://www.blitzbasic.com. A friend of mine does tech support for them. The shots are pretty impressive, and they have a similar setup as GarageGames, but they allow the licensees to take their game to whatever publisher they wish. You can even download a demo of the engine free of charge.
#10
another down fall is the fact that Torque is damn near everything you need! heh im gonna buy it soon, even though im using Nebula.
02/27/2002 (5:15 am)
AHHHH you guys completly missed an engine tha is darn near as powerfull if not more so. www.radonlabs.de its FREE! (yes FREE) and check out the lisence (note its not quite as detailed (in docs) as torque, but its fairly simplistic (if you dont do any engine work)another down fall is the fact that Torque is damn near everything you need! heh im gonna buy it soon, even though im using Nebula.
#11
02/27/2002 (5:31 am)
heh, id gave us the q2 engine for xmas last year, you can do what you want with it for free,,,as long as you do a tc and and release the source for your tc.
#12
Btw you did miss: http://nevrax.org/news/
its a nice engine
02/27/2002 (5:33 am)
actually stefan mentioned the nebula device two posts up....Btw you did miss: http://nevrax.org/news/
its a nice engine
#13
02/27/2002 (9:14 am)
q3a/t source is readily available as well I have it installed. same prinical as q2, if you relase a game source goes with it. But I have noticed a few q2 MODS that dont have their source readily available hrmmmmmm
#14
02/27/2002 (1:17 pm)
Yeah I have darkBASIC and ive been using it for awhile but don't think that DarkBasic would be able to handle it, im looking at the Nebula Device and it looks real good. I don't think you can license total conversions/mods other wise we would've just modded of of max payne.
#15
the SDK is not GPL'ed
What was release on Quake3 is the SDK not the engine code...
SDK lets you modify gameplay.. not engine
Same as with HL's SDK... its to make mods
02/27/2002 (1:31 pm)
ronald?! u are nuts... q3 source isnt availabe.. only the SDK is available... quake 2 mods use the SDK not the engine code... so they dont release source code...the SDK is not GPL'ed
What was release on Quake3 is the SDK not the engine code...
SDK lets you modify gameplay.. not engine
Same as with HL's SDK... its to make mods
#16
If your looking for an engine for under $1k, pickup Torque, its the only option imo - unless your going to build your own. Even if your going to build your own, I would suggest picking up Torque anyway.
To be honest, Torque SDK is a chance of a lifetime. You have never had access to so much for so little. While still in development, its by far the best buy. If Torque cost upwards $1000, I would still purchase it..because for the technology, ease of use/learning curve, and price..(even at $1-10k) there is not one engine on earth that can beat it, and its only $100. Plus support, free resources and code snippets (that you would have a hell of a time finding on near any other engine). It doesnt yet have a full game with source that comes with the SDK, but there is a demo- and that, in many cases is better than full source (because its barebones).
If your looking to make a professional quality game, whether you have any previous experience in games or not, and you dont have thousands upon thousands to invest, Torque is your engine. Do not waste your time with free engines, do not waste your time with 'cheap' engines.
My team dropped LithTech engine and started using Torque.
After looking at engine for two years, slowly building an engine of my own, and using several commercial, free, and trial engines, we are satisfied with one thus far:
Torque Gaming Engine
This is my impression after using Torque for only a few months.
02/27/2002 (2:25 pm)
If you want to pay upwards $1-10k go ahead and get Unreal/Quake - But make sure you have the team to utilize that technology to make it worth it.If your looking for an engine for under $1k, pickup Torque, its the only option imo - unless your going to build your own. Even if your going to build your own, I would suggest picking up Torque anyway.
To be honest, Torque SDK is a chance of a lifetime. You have never had access to so much for so little. While still in development, its by far the best buy. If Torque cost upwards $1000, I would still purchase it..because for the technology, ease of use/learning curve, and price..(even at $1-10k) there is not one engine on earth that can beat it, and its only $100. Plus support, free resources and code snippets (that you would have a hell of a time finding on near any other engine). It doesnt yet have a full game with source that comes with the SDK, but there is a demo- and that, in many cases is better than full source (because its barebones).
If your looking to make a professional quality game, whether you have any previous experience in games or not, and you dont have thousands upon thousands to invest, Torque is your engine. Do not waste your time with free engines, do not waste your time with 'cheap' engines.
My team dropped LithTech engine and started using Torque.
After looking at engine for two years, slowly building an engine of my own, and using several commercial, free, and trial engines, we are satisfied with one thus far:
Torque Gaming Engine
This is my impression after using Torque for only a few months.
#17
02/27/2002 (2:36 pm)
I made the mistake of buying 3dGamestudio before Torque. I can safely say, 3dgs is a piece of crap. Go with Torque
#18
02/27/2002 (3:24 pm)
Torque seems to be the engine to use thats what were gonna go with.
#19
02/27/2002 (3:29 pm)
so lithtech is freely avail for non-commercial use?
#20
Not that I know of. My team was using the LithTechSDK to develop with, intending to fully license it after we got off the ground. It had some cool features that many engines do not have, but it didnt seem worth it. If you were looking at LithTech I would much rather look into NDL, NetImmerse, Alchemy, or one of many other engines out there. LithTech Jupiter looks promising, if your willing to part with more than 250k.
02/27/2002 (6:42 pm)
EXodus:Not that I know of. My team was using the LithTechSDK to develop with, intending to fully license it after we got off the ground. It had some cool features that many engines do not have, but it didnt seem worth it. If you were looking at LithTech I would much rather look into NDL, NetImmerse, Alchemy, or one of many other engines out there. LithTech Jupiter looks promising, if your willing to part with more than 250k.
Torque Owner Jim McLuckie