Working on research paper: answer a few quick questions?
by Sanctus Legacy Online Admin · in General Discussion · 11/28/2005 (7:21 am) · 7 replies
'Tis a quite simple list of questions, mostly, but if you can help me out by answering them, I would be very appreciative. I'm doing a research paper for my History of Digital Media class on the past, present, and speculative future of independent game development, and I'm trying to gather some statistics for a small snippet about this particular community.
1) Name? (optional, naturally)
2) Age/Gender/Location?
3) Have you started any games that were finished? How many?
4) Have you started any games that were not finished? How many?
5) Have you joined any games that were finished? How many?
6) Have you joined any games that were not finished? How many?
7) Do you have any "professional" or paid experience? How much? If it doesn't breach any NDAs: what games?
Optional, but appreciated:
8) In your opinion (or from your experience- and please indicate if that is the case), what are some of the biggest challenges for independent development? In other words: why do many projects fail? Your answer can be something very literal and plain (dealing, perhaps, with things like resources or tools), or it can be something very abstract and even moral (dealing, perhaps, with the mind of an independent gamer or the mind of the consumer).
9) Do you believe that independent game development will grow gradually easier or gradually harder? Where do you see independent game development being in 5 years, and what changes will take place that bring us there?
Very optional, but very appreciated:
10) Describe, for me, the independent game development community: both limited here to GarageGames.com, and also throughout other gamedev communities.
11) And, just for fun, we'll ask one of time's greatest questions: will there ever be an independent MMORPG that outsells mainstream MMORPGs? If so: how long til we see it? What factors will have to come into play?
1) Name? (optional, naturally)
2) Age/Gender/Location?
3) Have you started any games that were finished? How many?
4) Have you started any games that were not finished? How many?
5) Have you joined any games that were finished? How many?
6) Have you joined any games that were not finished? How many?
7) Do you have any "professional" or paid experience? How much? If it doesn't breach any NDAs: what games?
Optional, but appreciated:
8) In your opinion (or from your experience- and please indicate if that is the case), what are some of the biggest challenges for independent development? In other words: why do many projects fail? Your answer can be something very literal and plain (dealing, perhaps, with things like resources or tools), or it can be something very abstract and even moral (dealing, perhaps, with the mind of an independent gamer or the mind of the consumer).
9) Do you believe that independent game development will grow gradually easier or gradually harder? Where do you see independent game development being in 5 years, and what changes will take place that bring us there?
Very optional, but very appreciated:
10) Describe, for me, the independent game development community: both limited here to GarageGames.com, and also throughout other gamedev communities.
11) And, just for fun, we'll ask one of time's greatest questions: will there ever be an independent MMORPG that outsells mainstream MMORPGs? If so: how long til we see it? What factors will have to come into play?
About the author
#2
2. 36 years old, SLC Utah
3. Yes. Nine have completed, shipped, and sold. I also had several "hobby" projects that reached some stage of completion but were never commercial endeavors.
4. More than I care to count, especially if you consider all the experimenting I did back in the Commodore 64 days. However, for games that were intended to be commercial products, I worked on three games that were cancelled in the design / early production stage, and I've got one indie game that I pulled the plug on in mid-development. I've got one more project that is in production now.
5. I consulted for a professional indie game development studio, but I really wasn't on the dev team.
6. See #5.
7. Yes - I worked in the videogame industry for six years. Game credits include Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jet Moto, and Animorphs for the Sony Playstation (and PC); Outwars, Snowmobile Racing, and Snowmobile Championship 2000 for the PC; and ECW 2: Anarchy Rulz! for the Sega Dreamcast.
8. Lack of experience, lack of discipline, lack of professionalism. 95% of indies come in with no idea what it takes to make a game, and figure, "How hard can it be?" They have some neat ideas. They crank on the game during the early, prototyping stage, amazed at how quickly it all comes together. Then they get to the "80% complete" stage - which really only takes 20% of the time (the last 20% takes 80% of the time) and progress slows to a grind, and they get discouraged, and quit.
9. I don't think it's going to get harder or easier. As the tools and techniques improve, that just means we'll make more and more elaborate games with fancier graphics. The amount of work stays more-or-less the same.
10. I really don't know how to describe this - it varies wildly. The GG.com crowd tends to have more hobbyist leanings. The indiegamer.com forums (at least the vocal minority) consist more of "professional indies" doing it for a living (or at least a suppplemental income). The gamedev.com crowd seems to be more newbies and wannabes trying to break into the industry.
11. Strange wording of the question - so it's difficult to answer. Indie games ARE commercial, unless you are releasing them for free. If you are asking if an indie MMORPG will ever outsell a "mainstream" MMORPG backed by a major publisher, I think the answer is "Yes, it's already happened." There are many MMORPGs that have failed dismally, and some indie MMORPGs that are extremely popular. Adventure Quest, Yo Ho Ho Puzzle Pirates, Kingdom of Loathing, and others have quite a few more players than some mainstream MMORPGs that launched and then sank.
However, if you are asking if an indie MMORPG will ever beat out one of the top three (or top ten) mainstream MMORPGs in terms of sheer revenue generation, I think the answer is "no." The movie "The Blair Witch Project" is heralded as the most profitable movie of all time in terms of ROI, but it's WAY WAY down the list of top grossing movies of all times. You just won't see a real "indie" MMORPG make the kind of money World of Warcraft is making any time in the forseeable future. It takes a heck of a lot of money, skill, and luck to create and market a game like that.
11/28/2005 (8:41 am)
1. Jay Barnson2. 36 years old, SLC Utah
3. Yes. Nine have completed, shipped, and sold. I also had several "hobby" projects that reached some stage of completion but were never commercial endeavors.
4. More than I care to count, especially if you consider all the experimenting I did back in the Commodore 64 days. However, for games that were intended to be commercial products, I worked on three games that were cancelled in the design / early production stage, and I've got one indie game that I pulled the plug on in mid-development. I've got one more project that is in production now.
5. I consulted for a professional indie game development studio, but I really wasn't on the dev team.
6. See #5.
7. Yes - I worked in the videogame industry for six years. Game credits include Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jet Moto, and Animorphs for the Sony Playstation (and PC); Outwars, Snowmobile Racing, and Snowmobile Championship 2000 for the PC; and ECW 2: Anarchy Rulz! for the Sega Dreamcast.
8. Lack of experience, lack of discipline, lack of professionalism. 95% of indies come in with no idea what it takes to make a game, and figure, "How hard can it be?" They have some neat ideas. They crank on the game during the early, prototyping stage, amazed at how quickly it all comes together. Then they get to the "80% complete" stage - which really only takes 20% of the time (the last 20% takes 80% of the time) and progress slows to a grind, and they get discouraged, and quit.
9. I don't think it's going to get harder or easier. As the tools and techniques improve, that just means we'll make more and more elaborate games with fancier graphics. The amount of work stays more-or-less the same.
10. I really don't know how to describe this - it varies wildly. The GG.com crowd tends to have more hobbyist leanings. The indiegamer.com forums (at least the vocal minority) consist more of "professional indies" doing it for a living (or at least a suppplemental income). The gamedev.com crowd seems to be more newbies and wannabes trying to break into the industry.
11. Strange wording of the question - so it's difficult to answer. Indie games ARE commercial, unless you are releasing them for free. If you are asking if an indie MMORPG will ever outsell a "mainstream" MMORPG backed by a major publisher, I think the answer is "Yes, it's already happened." There are many MMORPGs that have failed dismally, and some indie MMORPGs that are extremely popular. Adventure Quest, Yo Ho Ho Puzzle Pirates, Kingdom of Loathing, and others have quite a few more players than some mainstream MMORPGs that launched and then sank.
However, if you are asking if an indie MMORPG will ever beat out one of the top three (or top ten) mainstream MMORPGs in terms of sheer revenue generation, I think the answer is "no." The movie "The Blair Witch Project" is heralded as the most profitable movie of all time in terms of ROI, but it's WAY WAY down the list of top grossing movies of all times. You just won't see a real "indie" MMORPG make the kind of money World of Warcraft is making any time in the forseeable future. It takes a heck of a lot of money, skill, and luck to create and market a game like that.
#3
2) 20/M/Ontario,Canada
3) 1
4) None, unless you count prototyping, but they arent meant to be finished
5) 0
6) 0
7) A few contracts inside this community ranging from small script changes to major engine mods.
8) People lack the ambition and perseverance to complete a game. When the going gets tough, they bail.
9) I don't think the independent market is really changing at all. It won't be easier or harder. People still want to play games that are fun and the difficulty of creating fun games is not changing.
10) The GG community is constantly growing. There's always people joining it, and people bailing. Every once in a while someone comes and stays. Those people are the people who really form the community. If you looked around you'd probably see that 80% of the people that join the community bail in under a year.
11) This is not a great question. Indies should not make MMORPG's (In my opinion). On GG, if you look at the number of people that come into the community with the idea of starting a MMORPG and the number of completed MMORPG's you'd find 1 completed (Josh Ritters "Minions of Mirth") and about 10,000 failed projects.
However, to directly answer the question. Sales and budget are not directly related. Indie's can outsell funded games, no matter what the genre.
11/30/2005 (5:39 am)
1) Chris Labombard2) 20/M/Ontario,Canada
3) 1
4) None, unless you count prototyping, but they arent meant to be finished
5) 0
6) 0
7) A few contracts inside this community ranging from small script changes to major engine mods.
8) People lack the ambition and perseverance to complete a game. When the going gets tough, they bail.
9) I don't think the independent market is really changing at all. It won't be easier or harder. People still want to play games that are fun and the difficulty of creating fun games is not changing.
10) The GG community is constantly growing. There's always people joining it, and people bailing. Every once in a while someone comes and stays. Those people are the people who really form the community. If you looked around you'd probably see that 80% of the people that join the community bail in under a year.
11) This is not a great question. Indies should not make MMORPG's (In my opinion). On GG, if you look at the number of people that come into the community with the idea of starting a MMORPG and the number of completed MMORPG's you'd find 1 completed (Josh Ritters "Minions of Mirth") and about 10,000 failed projects.
However, to directly answer the question. Sales and budget are not directly related. Indie's can outsell funded games, no matter what the genre.
#4
2.) 15/M/TX
3.) No
4.) No
5.) No
6.) No
7.) Yes, I was doing a freelancing job at $3 per model
And Im currently working on a game, don't know if that will help?
11/30/2005 (5:46 am)
1.) Bejong Yang2.) 15/M/TX
3.) No
4.) No
5.) No
6.) No
7.) Yes, I was doing a freelancing job at $3 per model
And Im currently working on a game, don't know if that will help?
#5
2.16/M/Maine
3.Well, I made 2 on my own, but neither were of great quality. They were more like tests of what I could do.
4.I've started 3, two didnt get finished, and the third I'm currently working on and our team is making great progress. The first one was shut down because of our host was cutting back. And the second the leader became too lazy.
5. Well, yes see #3
6. Yep, see #4
7. Nope. If we can get our current game to sell when its done ill make some money though.
8. Projects fail because people get tired of the game and from laziness.
9. Independent game development will stay the same, the workflow and bugs will get worked out and make game creation more streamline, but new technology will always be coming out making the process always challenging.
10. If you are polite, communities are generally supportive, understanding and willing to teach you how to become a pro.
11.I doubt it. Some might get close, but mainstream MMORPG's almost always have more support, more servers, and will be easier for the general public to purchase.
12/01/2005 (8:39 pm)
1. Ben Jones2.16/M/Maine
3.Well, I made 2 on my own, but neither were of great quality. They were more like tests of what I could do.
4.I've started 3, two didnt get finished, and the third I'm currently working on and our team is making great progress. The first one was shut down because of our host was cutting back. And the second the leader became too lazy.
5. Well, yes see #3
6. Yep, see #4
7. Nope. If we can get our current game to sell when its done ill make some money though.
8. Projects fail because people get tired of the game and from laziness.
9. Independent game development will stay the same, the workflow and bugs will get worked out and make game creation more streamline, but new technology will always be coming out making the process always challenging.
10. If you are polite, communities are generally supportive, understanding and willing to teach you how to become a pro.
11.I doubt it. Some might get close, but mainstream MMORPG's almost always have more support, more servers, and will be easier for the general public to purchase.
#6
2) 20/Male/Australia
3) 1, (if mods count?)
4) about 10
5) no
6) currently working on an unfinished game for someone else.
7) no
8) The technology is challenging. Generally, projects fail because some integral technologies cannot be implemented, or are too hard to be implemented. For example, torque will not handle something that isn't a FPS.. if u try to do something crazy like flip the level block around, then it will have a SPACK ATTACK!! When this integral feature to the gameplay cannot be implemented, most people just loose motivation, and u all move on. This happens so much.
9) I hope it becomes an artform!
10) Most people in the community are passionate enthusiasts, which do not wish to even make a cent from their work. They instead revel in the pleasure of their own creations, their art, their lifestyle!
11) i hope not.. and i pity the person who succeeds! Hopefully this will never happen. However, in the case that it does, they'll have to get past me wielding a mighty big table leg, before they can publish the damn thing!
12/01/2005 (9:35 pm)
1) Skye Gellmann2) 20/Male/Australia
3) 1, (if mods count?)
4) about 10
5) no
6) currently working on an unfinished game for someone else.
7) no
8) The technology is challenging. Generally, projects fail because some integral technologies cannot be implemented, or are too hard to be implemented. For example, torque will not handle something that isn't a FPS.. if u try to do something crazy like flip the level block around, then it will have a SPACK ATTACK!! When this integral feature to the gameplay cannot be implemented, most people just loose motivation, and u all move on. This happens so much.
9) I hope it becomes an artform!
10) Most people in the community are passionate enthusiasts, which do not wish to even make a cent from their work. They instead revel in the pleasure of their own creations, their art, their lifestyle!
11) i hope not.. and i pity the person who succeeds! Hopefully this will never happen. However, in the case that it does, they'll have to get past me wielding a mighty big table leg, before they can publish the damn thing!
#7
2) 39/Male/Eugene, OR
3) Yes: 12
4) Yes: 9 some where abandoned after prototype stage (spelltris, turrets,) others stopped when Dynamix was closed (Red Baron on console in design stage, Trophy Bass 5, MiniGolf Maniacs) and one was killed off while in the end of the design stage (Herds) by the execs at corporate.
5) Don't understand the question.
6) Don't understand the question.
7) Yes: 9 years: Starseige, StarSeige:Tribes, Tribes 2, Trophy Hunting 4, Trophy Hunting 5, Contraptions-Return of the Incredible Machine, Even More Contrapitons, Trophy Bass 3, Trophy Bass 4, Trophy Bass 5 (unshipped), MiniGolf Maniacs (unshipped), ThinkTanks, ThinkTanks XBOX (for live arcade), at the moment working on a casual game that I cannot talk about.
8) Projects fail mostly because the developers lack experience and perseverence. The don't have the experience to realize that they are 10% done when they think they are 95% done and they don't have the perseverence to stick it out. This is tightly coupled with the tendency for newer developers to undertake a game where the scope is too large for the team and the design is too ambitious.
9) I think it will get easier to make games, as the tools will improve. I think the standards and expectations of consumers to rise, making it harder to make product that is of the quality needed to sell. I also think that the ease of use of the tools will create a situation where even more developers will undertake games of greater scope than they can accomplish. So, no easier or harder.. just different, with the same problems facing all developers (overscope and over ambitious design)
10) GarageGames: A lot of hobbyists with a smattering of professionals. IndieGamer: used to be where the 'serious' working independent developers hung out, has become a bunch of clueless noobs arguing about stupid things using knowledge of the industry and business models that have become outdated. I don't know about the other communities and I have looked and decided they were not worth my time.
12/02/2005 (7:57 am)
1) Joe Maruschak2) 39/Male/Eugene, OR
3) Yes: 12
4) Yes: 9 some where abandoned after prototype stage (spelltris, turrets,) others stopped when Dynamix was closed (Red Baron on console in design stage, Trophy Bass 5, MiniGolf Maniacs) and one was killed off while in the end of the design stage (Herds) by the execs at corporate.
5) Don't understand the question.
6) Don't understand the question.
7) Yes: 9 years: Starseige, StarSeige:Tribes, Tribes 2, Trophy Hunting 4, Trophy Hunting 5, Contraptions-Return of the Incredible Machine, Even More Contrapitons, Trophy Bass 3, Trophy Bass 4, Trophy Bass 5 (unshipped), MiniGolf Maniacs (unshipped), ThinkTanks, ThinkTanks XBOX (for live arcade), at the moment working on a casual game that I cannot talk about.
8) Projects fail mostly because the developers lack experience and perseverence. The don't have the experience to realize that they are 10% done when they think they are 95% done and they don't have the perseverence to stick it out. This is tightly coupled with the tendency for newer developers to undertake a game where the scope is too large for the team and the design is too ambitious.
9) I think it will get easier to make games, as the tools will improve. I think the standards and expectations of consumers to rise, making it harder to make product that is of the quality needed to sell. I also think that the ease of use of the tools will create a situation where even more developers will undertake games of greater scope than they can accomplish. So, no easier or harder.. just different, with the same problems facing all developers (overscope and over ambitious design)
10) GarageGames: A lot of hobbyists with a smattering of professionals. IndieGamer: used to be where the 'serious' working independent developers hung out, has become a bunch of clueless noobs arguing about stupid things using knowledge of the industry and business models that have become outdated. I don't know about the other communities and I have looked and decided they were not worth my time.
Torque 3D Owner Sean H.
1. Sean H.
2. 26/M/MD
3. no
4. no
5. no
6. no
7. no
FYI my little game is very much a WIP.