Hrm, why is there no Mapping/level designer Catergory

#1 hehe, also.

Mapping = low skill.
modeleing = high skill.

Mapper = some guy who left CS to make CS vU.ber
Level designer = someone who's got skill, but beyond what they learned from some half-assed Quake with CT theme.

Oh sorry... I get a bit rude when I have CS flashbacks.

#2 I have never touched half life. CS or other.

RPG mapping, thats a skill.

D40k

#3 Did you try the mapping section under Creative?

#4 Creative? on the forums?

I mean in my profile.

D40k

#5 rpg mapping? what?

#6 Really Pretty Good mapping

#7 I tried some really pretty good mapping myself, but it was way over my head. I'll stick to design.

(jk)

#8 There are some real time 3d rpg games around.

Its a different type of map. Mapping for half-life (and its spawn) is about making a level that is good for Frag matches, or capture the flag. Or what ever it is. RPG mapping is about making a map that looks real. It needs nothing more than to make you feel you are there.

While half-life maps can do this, thats not what there about.

Think about.

Either way. Just because you have decided that mapping is not a skill, even though I'm sure there are a few people who would disagree with you at all major games companies... Its not a reason to not have a mappers catergory under skills. Don't you want to know if a 3d artist can make models, or make maps. All thats really important is that they are very different. And hence shoudl have sperate catergories.

Darkness40k

#9 The problem is that many games are in fact produced with the "standard" 3d tools like 3dmax or otherwise. So why bother giving seperate categories?

And just an FYI, I used to be a very active mapper. I made a handful of maps for Quake 2, Half-Life, TFC, and CS. I gave up mapping since I felt it really was like playing in QBasic and saying you're a programmer.

"look i can make maps! Therefore I make games!"

I got nothing against mappers... mainly cause I am one. I just don't really feel it's quite so much of a "job" then it is just a hobby.

Although... since mappers are generally less dedicated and usually more annoying then other parts of the team, we could shove em all into their own forums and make it easier to weed out their ideas :P Just kidding!

#10 Hello,

I'm confused. I just checked the forums. The category is Creative, and under that category I see subsections on 3D Modeling, Animation, Game Design, Sound and Mapping - among others.

What's your complaint??

#11 He wants to be able to specify mapping as his skill in his profile. Seems reasonable to me.

#12 It depends on what engine you're talking about.

Mapping for CS is just a balancing act between relative prettiness and game balance for fragmatches. And mapping for Tribes 1/2 is even easier; it's all just drag-and-drop.

But single-player mapping, especially single-player mapping using a BSP engine, is a pretty serious undertaking.

I made Fan Missions for Thief, and let me tell you -- the amount of *creative* (non-programming) work that goes into ONE completed, professional-quality Thief 2 Fan Mission is probably more than it took to make a lot of triple-A titles. Like Tribes 2, for instance; it's all about gameplay balance and mechanics, but practically nothing to do with content -- a handful of models and skins, some maps made with the mapping tools, a handful of Worldcraft prefabs.

#13 umm... I don't see why you are debating wether or not mapping is a skill.

all he wants is for people to see that he can map by looking at his profile. it doesn't really matter if it's a skill or not (which by the way it is =).

#14 Nah mapping is a skill, just not one that I really put on the same plane as programmer, modeler, or sound person.

Hehe, as for single-player maps... they are harder but don't even touch a small portion of a triple F title (assuming they exist)

I really don't care, I'm just talking out loud... mappers are cool, but their abilities go to their head much quicker than any other type of person. So giving them their own category will only hasten the process :p

#15 Well, like Luc said, it really, really, REALLY depends on what kind of game you're making. Here's a list of the skills/categories you should list based on what you use:

First Person Atmosphere/Story Driven Games
This not really mapping skill, it's much more a designer's skill. They use their mapping techniques (which most designers have as a skill, if they don't they're practically useless) and designing knowledge to build the story and atmosphere, as well as make the level look great.

First Person Action/Graphics Driven Games
Mapper. This is for games like Quake where not much creativity is needed, just technical know-how. There really is no category, surprisingly enough, for this kind of mapper in Garage Games. Scriptor/Mod might be appropriate.

3D Games not Using an Engine Editor (instead using a 3D Art Editor like 3DS Max)
3D Artist skill. Modeler is an incorrect term because modelers are 3D artists that make models for the game. If the afore-mentioned game is plot-driven, the 3D artist will usually also have design skills. If it's not, then it's just 3D Artist.

However, most recently released games use an engine editor over 3DS Max since the engine editor can easily be configured for the engine, allowing easy input of AI, object properties, and all that good stuff.


Also, Luc, what FMs did you make? (I'm working on a Thief 2 FM right now)

#16 I tend to disagree with you Matt. Although throwing together a map in a night or two might be fairly easy, making that level fun to play is another story. Balancing the level is a skill and one which not very many level designers for most mods possess. CS was fun because some (definately not all) levels where well balanced and not symmetrical. Balancing a map for team games is even more of a challenge. Anyway...

I think a level designer catagory would be cool.

Alc

#17 If you want to see some really high quality, well-designed maps, check out Day of Defeat for Half-Life. I think that mod has some of the best maps I've ever seen in any mod. Beautiful textures, excellent buildings, etc. The only complaint I have is that most/all of the maps seem to give Axis the advantage...oh well.

#18 I'm still confused on why DoD has become popular. It's just Counter-Strike with less goals and a WWII theme...

And Counter-Strike was just Quake with less health and realistic weapons.

Dunno, DoD maps haven't really impressed me. They are nice, but nothing spectacular. Too tiny to really give the feeling of war. More like WWII based tactical ops... and as well all know, that wasn't really what went on in WWII.

Mapping is fine, I guess it's just my distaste for all these mappers who make one or two maps that don't suck and now they feel they own the world. Mappers are definately the most egocentric part of community game design... hell, even in professional game design.

Look at that gimp Cliffyb, American Mcgee and Levelord. They made some okay stuff, but they think they own the world. Mapping is the most rudimentary "Skill" for game design, and I think that it inflates people's self-worth.

They make a map, and think they'll be able to have a career on it. Even the best mappers aren't employed anywhere near as much as quality programmers or modelers, mainly because there are just so many level designers.

Level designing is the most hobbyish of all the aspects of game design in my book... and I've been annoyed by the somewhat ego-driven people behind it. Make one nice thing, and they expect us to worship em... I guess it's sort of a jealousy thing. They produce the simplest part of the game, yet they reap the most credit.

Give them a category, and that's fine... I'm just thinking it'll lower the GG community a bit into having a ton of kids running around saying "I made a counter-strike map, lemme work for you!". Not really a big complaint, but I Guess it's just from what I've learned.

I was a mapper. I worked on mapping for a few projects and mods officially and otherwise. I thought I'd have a career with it... then I realized that it's a joke. It's one of the few areas where you're not going to have a solid career if you focus in it. Sure, might get a contract job here and there, but it's by far the most common "skill" out there and the least applicable outside of games.

What are you going to do if the games industry crumbles or slows (or just doesn't grow to accomidate the newcomers)? The skills used in mapping are not applicable outside of game design. I learned that, and realized that focussing on programming is a much better choice than drawing boxes and painting textures.

I guess I just am trying to convince others that if they think that mapping is their way to get the foot in the door (and it just might be, but if that's all you can do... who cares if you got in the door?) Get some real skills before you plan on breaking into the games industry. If you want to map... make sure you have some other skills like 3d modeling, 2d artwork, sound, or programming.

#19 Seems like a reasonable request. If you want to put it in now, just use Designer in the pull down and clarify it in the Long Talent Description. I really think by definition alone, Designer would cover level design. But that's just me.

#20 Designers are not mappers. Designers usually come up with the story and all that stuff, and make maps, like I said in my post (which apparently went ignored).

What I'm saying is that making a map with a game that concentrates on story is much harder than doing so with a game like counterstrike (which is so easy to do it's not even funny). For instance, making a Thief FM requires scripting, writing, and mapping skills, as well as atmospheric expertise. Quake and CS maps just require the editor and mouse usage.

Some mappers have gotten jobs just by mapping. Sledge, who made the critically-acclaimed Thief 2 FM, The Inverted Manse, is now working at Ion Storm Austin on Thief 3 -- the sole reason being that his mission was just that good. Not only does making a Thief FM require the skills I mention above, it also requires art skills for custom models, textures and camera features. So, as I said before the value of a mapper can't be judged generally, it ALWAYS depends on the type of game they are mapping for.

However, then there are the mappers who make maps for games like CS, Doom and Quake that we all know and loathe for their arrogance.

Let me clarify the positions again, that most gaming companies use:
Designer: Designs the aspects of the game by contributing to the design doc, writing the story, building the game idea and mapping out the missions/areas. They can also help with drawing concept art. Designers point the direction in which the project goes.
Mapper: Just maps missions. They are, as mentioned before, the least important member of the development team.
3D Artist: Modelers, video artists, and sometimes mappers. Very important members of the team.

Also, you guys are talking about slapping maps together in a few nights...Thief FMs typically take 4 months to a year to complete. And that's working three hours a day. It always depends on the complexity of the mission, obviously.