Torque Good Engine for WoW Style MMO?
by Dave Kushner · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 10/04/2005 (2:20 pm) · 32 replies
Hey, guys! I'm a bit new at this "building a game from scratch" stuff. I have done alot of modding in the past, mostly for the Source and Unreal engines. I am 15 and have been a level designer since I was three. I don't just practice level design, I study it. I study different methods of fluidity and mission design. I also study many practical "mapping" methods such as optimizations and player-server interaction tools for MMOs. I am planning on creating, with friends and a good team of course, a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game and was wondering if Torque was the engine for me?
I do not own 3d Studio, Max or otherwise, and realisticly cannot afford it at the moment. Will I be able to create worlds and structures otherwise? Will the Torque engine supply the necissary "torque" (har har) to create a 3rd person, walk-a-round style of gameplay a la World of Warcraft?
Thanks in advance.
Post Script: If you guys have any better ideas for an appropriate engine, I'd love to hear them.
I do not own 3d Studio, Max or otherwise, and realisticly cannot afford it at the moment. Will I be able to create worlds and structures otherwise? Will the Torque engine supply the necissary "torque" (har har) to create a 3rd person, walk-a-round style of gameplay a la World of Warcraft?
Thanks in advance.
Post Script: If you guys have any better ideas for an appropriate engine, I'd love to hear them.
#22
You may want to contact him about his technology, which I think he will license out when finished. Maybe he will give you a sneak peak if you impress enough?
Note, that being an indie will essentially require your game to be able to be served by the people playing it (as MUDs in ye olde times were) as you will likely not have enough funds for a dedicated server/server farm. This is of course assuming you intend to take advantage of the "Massive" title. If not, then you could just do as stated above and work on a series of connected levels or something similar. Torque can handle about 128 clients or so (I think I read somewhere) out of the box.
10/05/2005 (2:05 am)
I agree with Joshua... You seem like a programmer yes? Programming is the easy part of making a MMORPG. There is just so much content required that it would be extreamly hard for any indie team to do it without licensing artwork from others (as I believe Josh Ritter has done).You may want to contact him about his technology, which I think he will license out when finished. Maybe he will give you a sneak peak if you impress enough?
Note, that being an indie will essentially require your game to be able to be served by the people playing it (as MUDs in ye olde times were) as you will likely not have enough funds for a dedicated server/server farm. This is of course assuming you intend to take advantage of the "Massive" title. If not, then you could just do as stated above and work on a series of connected levels or something similar. Torque can handle about 128 clients or so (I think I read somewhere) out of the box.
#23
10/05/2005 (6:00 am)
Well, if you were to have another game being sold as well as this one, you could probably afford to host dedicated servers. Also, monthly fees wouldn't be a bad idea. You might want to look into getting Advanced 3D Game Programming All in One. Advanced not the other one. While the original book is a great read, the Advanced one goes into more detail on making game services for use in Torque. Not to mention all the AI and artwork detail. :) It is a really good book though. I'd recommend it to every developer.
#24
Although I don't present it as advice, you might be interested in the route I'm taking, as a dev with a lot of C++ and the sum total of only one finished game (and that was a GID). I'm using Torque to develop an MORPG - note the single M. I thought I'd see what I can do in the way of a smaller, more intimate multiplayer RPG.
I've been working through Dreamer's Advanced MMORPG tutorial, which is very worthwhile if you're willing to fill in the blanks and don't just want copy and paste code. It's basically taught me TorqueScript too, which is handy; it's hard to learn anything in a vacuum but if you're working towards a goal there's a reason to keep going.
2km x 2km world size? Not a problem. That's four square miles! I'm going to have a central town, and a few satellite villages. If in the future I really want more space, a portal-based zoning system that punts the player onto a server running on a different port may well be worth looking at and would require a minimum of engine changes.
Besides, with creative design a "massive" world may only be presented to the player as a limited area. Consider a city on a shard of land that has been ripped from it's home world and now drifts through space, seemingly always in the calm at the centre of a raging storm. Anyone trying to leave the city disappears into the storm, and is not heard from again.
Perhaps the entire storm phases in and out of existance in different worlds, and anything trapped in it gets sucked to the centre, where the city awaits, in the eye of the storm. One week, a helicopter crash-lands on the edge of the city; next week, a bewildered troll is found wandering down the main street trying to find her cave, having just stepped out for a wash in the rain.
What kind of society would form from a group of interdimensional misfits with no way of leaving the city? Although there are a lot of interesting tangents to follow in that design my point was just that although the actual play area is small, that small area interfaces with a massive world. There's no hard and fast rule that says you have to let them GO there!
128 players max? No worries. Upwards of 100 players + NPCs in your immediate vicinity, plus a strongly-suggested external world, will not feel small. I'm not out for profit on this one anyway, it's a learning experience and a chance to experiment with different RPG concepts. A lower number of players may allow me to evolve a richer, more character based experience.
Lack of art assets? The terrain builder goes a long way. And those cottages, docks and towers from the SDK look a hell of a lot better as to-be-going-on graphics than most programmer art.
If you really, really want to do an MMORPG, why not start by building a small, defined area of your world and the code to support it? You'd probably have a lot more luck finding funding/team members when you can show potential investors what you have and explain that your problem is scaling it with your available resources.
Edit: .planned it :)
10/05/2005 (6:27 am)
Hi Dave,Although I don't present it as advice, you might be interested in the route I'm taking, as a dev with a lot of C++ and the sum total of only one finished game (and that was a GID). I'm using Torque to develop an MORPG - note the single M. I thought I'd see what I can do in the way of a smaller, more intimate multiplayer RPG.
I've been working through Dreamer's Advanced MMORPG tutorial, which is very worthwhile if you're willing to fill in the blanks and don't just want copy and paste code. It's basically taught me TorqueScript too, which is handy; it's hard to learn anything in a vacuum but if you're working towards a goal there's a reason to keep going.
2km x 2km world size? Not a problem. That's four square miles! I'm going to have a central town, and a few satellite villages. If in the future I really want more space, a portal-based zoning system that punts the player onto a server running on a different port may well be worth looking at and would require a minimum of engine changes.
Besides, with creative design a "massive" world may only be presented to the player as a limited area. Consider a city on a shard of land that has been ripped from it's home world and now drifts through space, seemingly always in the calm at the centre of a raging storm. Anyone trying to leave the city disappears into the storm, and is not heard from again.
Perhaps the entire storm phases in and out of existance in different worlds, and anything trapped in it gets sucked to the centre, where the city awaits, in the eye of the storm. One week, a helicopter crash-lands on the edge of the city; next week, a bewildered troll is found wandering down the main street trying to find her cave, having just stepped out for a wash in the rain.
What kind of society would form from a group of interdimensional misfits with no way of leaving the city? Although there are a lot of interesting tangents to follow in that design my point was just that although the actual play area is small, that small area interfaces with a massive world. There's no hard and fast rule that says you have to let them GO there!
128 players max? No worries. Upwards of 100 players + NPCs in your immediate vicinity, plus a strongly-suggested external world, will not feel small. I'm not out for profit on this one anyway, it's a learning experience and a chance to experiment with different RPG concepts. A lower number of players may allow me to evolve a richer, more character based experience.
Lack of art assets? The terrain builder goes a long way. And those cottages, docks and towers from the SDK look a hell of a lot better as to-be-going-on graphics than most programmer art.
If you really, really want to do an MMORPG, why not start by building a small, defined area of your world and the code to support it? You'd probably have a lot more luck finding funding/team members when you can show potential investors what you have and explain that your problem is scaling it with your available resources.
Edit: .planned it :)
#25
Matt Vitelli, you seem to be a never ending source of knowledge when it comes to building games and I thank you for that. We do have servers lined up and we are trying to secure more from the same place we are recieving our funding. In our order, we ask for a grant of 50, IBM Blade, Intel Zeon rack servers. Our programmers and server communication specialists agree that this will be enough for a substantial number of members but what do you think? Also, as a level designer, will the seems of my worlds be visible? I do not want the player to be walking around and suddenly come to the edge of the word and by the miracle of modern technology, be transported to a thriving city.
If you all truly agree that I am incapable of creating an MMO, we had already devised a small FPS game based on the Torque engine but decided that an MMO would draw more of a crowd and therefore more of a fanbase for when we released the FPS.
Once again thank you for all of your support and posts.
--Dave
The Open Source Rebellion
theosr.7.forumer.com
10/05/2005 (7:49 am)
Well, thank you all once again. Realm Crafter, disappointingly, did not go up for sale this morning but I still think it is the best and most easy to use program available for our intentions. Dylan, thank you for your input it is very valuable but I'm afraid I am no programmer. That side of development seems to have an IQ of 200 prerequisite. We do, however have three, extremely talented programmers and scripters on our team who are well versed in the workings of MMO programming and functions. I am a level designer, true to heart and will be doing most of the world creation for the game.Matt Vitelli, you seem to be a never ending source of knowledge when it comes to building games and I thank you for that. We do have servers lined up and we are trying to secure more from the same place we are recieving our funding. In our order, we ask for a grant of 50, IBM Blade, Intel Zeon rack servers. Our programmers and server communication specialists agree that this will be enough for a substantial number of members but what do you think? Also, as a level designer, will the seems of my worlds be visible? I do not want the player to be walking around and suddenly come to the edge of the word and by the miracle of modern technology, be transported to a thriving city.
If you all truly agree that I am incapable of creating an MMO, we had already devised a small FPS game based on the Torque engine but decided that an MMO would draw more of a crowd and therefore more of a fanbase for when we released the FPS.
Once again thank you for all of your support and posts.
--Dave
The Open Source Rebellion
theosr.7.forumer.com
#26
Good luck though.
PS: Where are you getting funding that would cover that many rack servers? Go ahead and get a couple more and send 'em my way.
10/05/2005 (8:06 am)
Nobody agrees that you are incapable of creating a MMO with Torque. Just simply stating it is a lot of work involved, specially if you are new with the engine. Mr Ritter's been working on Minions of Mirth for years now with a good size team. Do a search for Dreamer's tutorials. They are awesome and could help you on the path. Also be sure to get the TSE that way you'll have better "WoW" style graphics.Good luck though.
PS: Where are you getting funding that would cover that many rack servers? Go ahead and get a couple more and send 'em my way.
#27
-Matt Vitelli
10/05/2005 (1:34 pm)
I think you definately can make a MMO using Torque and I really think you should give it a try. But yeah, if Mr. Ritter decides on selling the source code used for Minions of Mirth, that would be an excellent start. Making another game would really help you though. You could use it as a way of income for your MMO and if you can think of something that can be made fast, but still be fun and innovative you're doing great! Realm Crafter does look interesting, but with Torque you get so many more options and possibilities. I'd definately recommend using Shader Engine for it though. It would give you next gen tools and not to mention the massive worlds. Heck, if you use Shader Engine and make maybe 5 maps. (Each using Atlas, the new terrain) you can have a world larger than life. :) But yes. I think you can make a MMO, most definately. But you will need another source of income while you make it. Good luck and don't give up!-Matt Vitelli
#28
I have a programming team doing that with our project, and a creative team doing the content and I would choose modeling and texturing over bug testing 300 000 lines of code to find the memory leak that occurs when ultra rare event "A" happens to coincide with random event "B"
And this is something that might be suitable for TNL, you want a persistant seamless world you are opening a whole new can of worms. I remember when our network programmers read through the whitepaper by Gas Powered on the seamless world of DS they kind of looked at me with the 'you want us to do this? You have to be f'ing kidding me' look on their face. And these are network programmers with degrees and years of experience.
As for making an mmo at 15, as suggested by a lot of others and now by myself, learn to walk before you figure out how to break the sound barrier. It is a massive undertaking(hence the name) which requires a huge number of manhours(or womanhours) to pump out something decent and worthwhile. Which means a decent team of at least 5-10 people, which means the guy in charge needs to know and have exprience running/motivating teams in a remotely cooperative setting. Join a smaller project, lend your expertise, see how they run things and learn what to do and more importantly what not to do(for every thing you learn how to do right, you see 5 things that are being done wrong or which could be done better).
But then again that's just me, and my humble 2 cents, at the end of the day you have to look at how you can most efficiently use your time. Is it by trying to re-invent the wheel painfully or can you increase your learning curve by spending a 6-12 months or so with others and working smaller, learning a lot more in a group setting, etc etc.
Food for thought.
10/05/2005 (2:54 pm)
Dylan: Programming is the easy part? I would dissagree to the complete extreme with that. If you mean programming is the least time consuming part I might disagree a bit less, but have you gone through created the server/database architecture from scratch required to make a persistant world able to sustain a few thousand concurrent connections effeciently and be stable to boot?I have a programming team doing that with our project, and a creative team doing the content and I would choose modeling and texturing over bug testing 300 000 lines of code to find the memory leak that occurs when ultra rare event "A" happens to coincide with random event "B"
And this is something that might be suitable for TNL, you want a persistant seamless world you are opening a whole new can of worms. I remember when our network programmers read through the whitepaper by Gas Powered on the seamless world of DS they kind of looked at me with the 'you want us to do this? You have to be f'ing kidding me' look on their face. And these are network programmers with degrees and years of experience.
As for making an mmo at 15, as suggested by a lot of others and now by myself, learn to walk before you figure out how to break the sound barrier. It is a massive undertaking(hence the name) which requires a huge number of manhours(or womanhours) to pump out something decent and worthwhile. Which means a decent team of at least 5-10 people, which means the guy in charge needs to know and have exprience running/motivating teams in a remotely cooperative setting. Join a smaller project, lend your expertise, see how they run things and learn what to do and more importantly what not to do(for every thing you learn how to do right, you see 5 things that are being done wrong or which could be done better).
But then again that's just me, and my humble 2 cents, at the end of the day you have to look at how you can most efficiently use your time. Is it by trying to re-invent the wheel painfully or can you increase your learning curve by spending a 6-12 months or so with others and working smaller, learning a lot more in a group setting, etc etc.
Food for thought.
#29
Of course, in my humble opinion, MMORPGs are highly overrated as fun to create. I am aware that it gives you the feeling of being a diety, but sometimes I think that all these "MMORPG noobs" would be just as satisfied occupying the position of a high-ranking GM and content creator for an existing MMORPG.
I wish you good luck on your endeavors though. I never thought of using articulacy to compensate for my age. I'm actually fourteen. ;) It seems we've got a lot of things in common, not too much funding, and normally considdered too young for game development, but lots of will and persiverance. Hopefully, we both make it into the industry. ^_^
EDIT: As for the original question, Torque is an entirely adequate tool for an MMORPG. Josh Ritter has done a great job with his game "Minions of Mirth". Oh and by the way, WoW does not have any terribly advanced graphical features, other than the good water and the spectacular spell effects. It's really very low-poly. It only seems like the graphics are amazing because the modelers were highly skilled, and the art direction was incredible.
10/10/2005 (7:23 am)
It's been said again and again by many people that an MMORPG is a bad start, simply because of the scale and complexity of the product, not to mention the monitary cost. I suggest stop trying to create a WoW style game as a first venture, and start with something that dosn't dwarf your ability to make it to procure some funding and recognition. Funding is important, recognition far more so. For an MMORPG, you need several team members, at least twenty.Of course, in my humble opinion, MMORPGs are highly overrated as fun to create. I am aware that it gives you the feeling of being a diety, but sometimes I think that all these "MMORPG noobs" would be just as satisfied occupying the position of a high-ranking GM and content creator for an existing MMORPG.
I wish you good luck on your endeavors though. I never thought of using articulacy to compensate for my age. I'm actually fourteen. ;) It seems we've got a lot of things in common, not too much funding, and normally considdered too young for game development, but lots of will and persiverance. Hopefully, we both make it into the industry. ^_^
EDIT: As for the original question, Torque is an entirely adequate tool for an MMORPG. Josh Ritter has done a great job with his game "Minions of Mirth". Oh and by the way, WoW does not have any terribly advanced graphical features, other than the good water and the spectacular spell effects. It's really very low-poly. It only seems like the graphics are amazing because the modelers were highly skilled, and the art direction was incredible.
#30
Sure, there have been a few indies that have made mmorpgs but have any of these been their first games made? And were any of the lead developers non-programmers? It just seems to me that if you are going to succeed in something this monumental (and indie) that the leader also has to be the lead "worker" and not just the lead "teller". No?
10/17/2005 (11:53 am)
Not to be rude but I don't even understand how a non-programmer with no industry experience can attempt to be a team leader/developer of a mmorpg (regrardless of age). Does anybody know if this has ever worked? You hear it all the time from newbies (I am still a newbie myself) but I would like to know if it has "ever" worked.Sure, there have been a few indies that have made mmorpgs but have any of these been their first games made? And were any of the lead developers non-programmers? It just seems to me that if you are going to succeed in something this monumental (and indie) that the leader also has to be the lead "worker" and not just the lead "teller". No?
#31
P.S.
My partner in Scryer Games lives in Houston.
11/25/2005 (10:03 am)
I was in on the Pre-Order for Ream Crafter(which allowed us to help with the Beta Testing), and it is still a W.I.P. Realm Crafter is still one of the best programs to start off with to make an MMORPG. They are a very responsive DEV team. Worth a look even if it isn't complete yet.P.S.
My partner in Scryer Games lives in Houston.
#32
but it lacked more depth beyond ranks and certification system. And SWG.. well they nerfed it into a pile of bantha
podo (Combat downgrade).
But I would like to see some more original MMOG's. If I see another sword or robe i'll puke. For now.
And yes I will be looking at Vanguard when it launches? Why Because EQ1 was great before Sony got
there hands on it and started nerfing.
The Prarie games folks, Minions of Mirth already have built an excellent basic MMOG system using TGE
and integrated python for middleware, connecting to a good database.
11/25/2005 (10:37 am)
I am tired of the hack and slash MMORPG's. I want more sci fi. Really enjoyed Anarchy Online, loved planetsidebut it lacked more depth beyond ranks and certification system. And SWG.. well they nerfed it into a pile of bantha
podo (Combat downgrade).
But I would like to see some more original MMOG's. If I see another sword or robe i'll puke. For now.
And yes I will be looking at Vanguard when it launches? Why Because EQ1 was great before Sony got
there hands on it and started nerfing.
The Prarie games folks, Minions of Mirth already have built an excellent basic MMOG system using TGE
and integrated python for middleware, connecting to a good database.
Torque Owner Chris
Pffft. My sister was making levels for Re-Volt at ( barely) four. Not at all impossible, nor even unlikely.