A problem with money: too much too fast
by Bryce "Cogburn" Weiner · in General Discussion · 09/29/2005 (10:54 pm) · 16 replies
My project has just launched its website (www.versusthegame.com) and I'm running into a few issues I was wondering if anyone had some thoughts on.
We are targeting a specific audience of FPS gamers as our core. With the one or two posts I've made in the appropriate gaming forums, our site reached over 10,000 unique hits in 24 hours after going live. We seem to have found our market.
Now we are flooded with an unexpected number of requests to assist our indie project, to the point of some offering what amounts to several thousand dollars of seed money and commercial software. We've also attracted intrest from GameSpot.com in the form of a quick "I like what you are doing here". I have formed an LLC to cover copyrights, but this type of response so early in our development cycle is ... unnerving.
I have 3 other team members that I consider "core" (they are permitted to speak at will about the project and are most intimate with the details), but there are number of others (less than 10) that are on the "team". Right now we are running our project like a mod team. It seemed perfectly logical given the nature of what we were doing. We all have jobs, we all have lives, and this is a side project that we all take seriously. Our design document is slowly reaching maturity, but we are still far from knowing where we are going to need to spend money.
As Producer, I sit at the core of the project and make sure that things get done. I am also expected to handle the financial status of our project. How best do you recommend I handle the delicate issues of money, reimbursement, investment and donations to a project that may, in the end, become a commercial product... especially when we aren't ready for it yet?
Of course... Like any venture... It may also fail... And then what happens? How best do you prepare potential investors in a video game production that they may in the end lose their money? Are there considerations to be made based on the nature of the product or do you think it could be handled like any other commerical venture?
We are targeting a specific audience of FPS gamers as our core. With the one or two posts I've made in the appropriate gaming forums, our site reached over 10,000 unique hits in 24 hours after going live. We seem to have found our market.
Now we are flooded with an unexpected number of requests to assist our indie project, to the point of some offering what amounts to several thousand dollars of seed money and commercial software. We've also attracted intrest from GameSpot.com in the form of a quick "I like what you are doing here". I have formed an LLC to cover copyrights, but this type of response so early in our development cycle is ... unnerving.
I have 3 other team members that I consider "core" (they are permitted to speak at will about the project and are most intimate with the details), but there are number of others (less than 10) that are on the "team". Right now we are running our project like a mod team. It seemed perfectly logical given the nature of what we were doing. We all have jobs, we all have lives, and this is a side project that we all take seriously. Our design document is slowly reaching maturity, but we are still far from knowing where we are going to need to spend money.
As Producer, I sit at the core of the project and make sure that things get done. I am also expected to handle the financial status of our project. How best do you recommend I handle the delicate issues of money, reimbursement, investment and donations to a project that may, in the end, become a commercial product... especially when we aren't ready for it yet?
Of course... Like any venture... It may also fail... And then what happens? How best do you prepare potential investors in a video game production that they may in the end lose their money? Are there considerations to be made based on the nature of the product or do you think it could be handled like any other commerical venture?
#2
Bryce, i am going to sound like an ass I know, but probably because I am one?
but, I'm assuming that all this has happened over the last 3 days or so.
If that's true, then I think you are going to be heading towards a pretty major bubble-burst. That bubble being full of the hype that got you to post your question.
If you are inferring that you got linked to by a major game site (GameSpot.com) that's probably where the 10k visitors came from. Similar to a slashdotting, it probably doesnt accuratly represent "real" interest. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing... getting the word out is always a good thing.
Though judging from the contents of your website... you have no content. and that's the problem that you obviously should first address.
Ignore the uphoria of people wanting to give you money. Well, dont ignore it, just dont count your eggs until they hatch (when they actuall give you money).
So back to content, that's what it takes. If this is your (and your team member's) first project, then chances are you are going to fail. But hey, if you cant stand failure or disappointment you definatly dont belong in the indie market.
So back again, to CONTENT. focus on the project, spend real work working on your architecture, and then write a very dumb prototype of your ideas then re-evaluate your architecture and then start the game..
back to your question about investors, unless you know a lot of powerful/rich (the same?) people, and/or unless you can sell an eskimo ice in the middle of winter, it's back to the content. You will always have people offering you money (and taking away your IP) if you have something worth it. (even if it just appears worth it, that's good enough i suppose)
If you are concerned with loosing money, well if you set up a LLC (depends what type of LLC) you are partially protected. if you have investors do you have shareholders, etc. Anyway, i am rambling on here, hope that helped a little.
09/29/2005 (11:14 pm)
I dont know anything about how skilled you are as a producer, so anything i say here that is too "Noob" please dont feel insulted, just ignore it.Bryce, i am going to sound like an ass I know, but probably because I am one?
but, I'm assuming that all this has happened over the last 3 days or so.
If that's true, then I think you are going to be heading towards a pretty major bubble-burst. That bubble being full of the hype that got you to post your question.
If you are inferring that you got linked to by a major game site (GameSpot.com) that's probably where the 10k visitors came from. Similar to a slashdotting, it probably doesnt accuratly represent "real" interest. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing... getting the word out is always a good thing.
Though judging from the contents of your website... you have no content. and that's the problem that you obviously should first address.
Ignore the uphoria of people wanting to give you money. Well, dont ignore it, just dont count your eggs until they hatch (when they actuall give you money).
So back to content, that's what it takes. If this is your (and your team member's) first project, then chances are you are going to fail. But hey, if you cant stand failure or disappointment you definatly dont belong in the indie market.
So back again, to CONTENT. focus on the project, spend real work working on your architecture, and then write a very dumb prototype of your ideas then re-evaluate your architecture and then start the game..
back to your question about investors, unless you know a lot of powerful/rich (the same?) people, and/or unless you can sell an eskimo ice in the middle of winter, it's back to the content. You will always have people offering you money (and taking away your IP) if you have something worth it. (even if it just appears worth it, that's good enough i suppose)
If you are concerned with loosing money, well if you set up a LLC (depends what type of LLC) you are partially protected. if you have investors do you have shareholders, etc. Anyway, i am rambling on here, hope that helped a little.
#3
09/29/2005 (11:29 pm)
How can I put this delicately? Don't take their money. No matter what. They will screw over your game and they will make you want to quit making games before it's all over. I have very very little experience with this, but I do have funding for my game. I have known many artists who were funded and let me tell you what happens... control. Anyone who funds someone with little or no professional experience is either looking for getting rich quick or having a pet project. They don't take it seriously like you do. They will try to control what you do. The people who are funding my game are people I have known for 10 years now and who are practically second parents to me. I know them and trust them. People who contact you after seeing your hard work and want to pay what is really a pretty pathetically small amount are just looking to take advantage. I say don't let them do it. Take it from someone who has seen it over and over again. People don't just hand over money to strangers with no strings attached. If it isn't an established company... you are asking for a nightmare. That's my two cents. Maybe someone with more experience will have better advice than this. Good luck. Sounds like your game is kick ass. Don't give it up so cheaply. 
#4
Not all first projects are doomed to fail, if this is your first or second, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that you keep your core team insipred, with inspiration comes focus and reliability.
You wanna make sure that for every shovel you have a latter, that way you wont dig yourself too deep, but keep the number one lesson in starting a business in mind. No matter what, to succeed in a business you have to take risks. If you know your team is up for it, and can handle the task at hand, take the money and make the best of it, just make sure to do all the research needed before hand. Also remember than once you recieve backing, you are no longer an indie team, as you are not self funded.
Before you accept funding, make sure you have the interest of a publisher, without that, you will never be able to pay back the funders and you would have just laneded yourself in a great big hole of debt, and your business will be gonners. Remember, not only are you creating a game, your creating a business image. Of course selling the game is the theme to the story, but the underlying detail is that you are also selling your company, so that your future attempts at creating something viable have that much more chance of survival.
I hope I helped somewhat. I have been in a position very similar to yours. What I ended up doing was returning 5k worth of donations, I knew I couldn't complete the task at hand.
Good luck!
- Anthony Bertolo
09/29/2005 (11:35 pm)
You will likely need a way to keep the current site visitors into site users. You want to keep the visitor interested in what you have going on, usually this means pumping out media such as screenshots and in-game footage. This is where you will find your problem. You may find that such a user base is a hassel at project start, usually you would keep from going live until near or after beta stage. To do this your team must be driven to succeed.Not all first projects are doomed to fail, if this is your first or second, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that you keep your core team insipred, with inspiration comes focus and reliability.
You wanna make sure that for every shovel you have a latter, that way you wont dig yourself too deep, but keep the number one lesson in starting a business in mind. No matter what, to succeed in a business you have to take risks. If you know your team is up for it, and can handle the task at hand, take the money and make the best of it, just make sure to do all the research needed before hand. Also remember than once you recieve backing, you are no longer an indie team, as you are not self funded.
Before you accept funding, make sure you have the interest of a publisher, without that, you will never be able to pay back the funders and you would have just laneded yourself in a great big hole of debt, and your business will be gonners. Remember, not only are you creating a game, your creating a business image. Of course selling the game is the theme to the story, but the underlying detail is that you are also selling your company, so that your future attempts at creating something viable have that much more chance of survival.
I hope I helped somewhat. I have been in a position very similar to yours. What I ended up doing was returning 5k worth of donations, I knew I couldn't complete the task at hand.
Good luck!
- Anthony Bertolo
#5
09/29/2005 (11:43 pm)
Let it cool down, get your project under control, then when you know that you've really got a good solid prototype take the money if it's sizeable enough. Otherwise ... forget the money and complete the game all the way without letting anyone touch your baby! I typically believe that the only good money is from a happy customer who gets a product for their money. It's not the only good money but it's the only 'solid' money. Basically, if you're not getting money from people who've purchased your game because they enjoyed playing it somewhere or because they're selling it to people who'll enjoy it then be cautious. Funding puts control of the game in other people's hands.
#6
Also like the little comment in the forums about the tribes2-esque footprints :-p wonder where they got that idea.
Good plan for the game though, only problem is that it is a very large task to complete.
09/29/2005 (11:48 pm)
Wow, you get great feedback for what you have in terms of an alpha video (which in my opinion is more or less a simple level with trees and a fxshapereplicator).Also like the little comment in the forums about the tribes2-esque footprints :-p wonder where they got that idea.
Good plan for the game though, only problem is that it is a very large task to complete.
#7
09/29/2005 (11:54 pm)
Where's the alpha video?
#8
This is actually project number four. The first was a moderately successfully web-based game, the other two were Torque-based design projects that simply failed.
This time around I feel we have the right mix of skilled, dedicated people to at least make it to a prototyping stage. We do have industry contacts and a little contact with money. Dave Georgenson helped craft our initial design treatment and has been a resource of immeasurable depth. The GameSpot attention was somewhat unexpected in that one of our development team is a friend of one of the editors (its a recognizable name which is why I didn't mention it initially).
We really did not expect anything like we've seen. We weren't going for some kind of full launch. I think we just tapped into the right community for the style of game we are creating. I wasn't even ready to post about our idea for YOUR perusal yet, but I wanted SOMETHING to ground out ... the euphoria.
In an hour I have some serious food for thought. I'm looking forward to what gets posted when the sun comes up.
[EDIT: and someone did slashdot us on gamespot.com I have since found out, but it was only 2 hours ago]
09/30/2005 (12:07 am)
Thank you all for your quick and well considered responses. I'm starting to relax from my panic. :)This is actually project number four. The first was a moderately successfully web-based game, the other two were Torque-based design projects that simply failed.
This time around I feel we have the right mix of skilled, dedicated people to at least make it to a prototyping stage. We do have industry contacts and a little contact with money. Dave Georgenson helped craft our initial design treatment and has been a resource of immeasurable depth. The GameSpot attention was somewhat unexpected in that one of our development team is a friend of one of the editors (its a recognizable name which is why I didn't mention it initially).
We really did not expect anything like we've seen. We weren't going for some kind of full launch. I think we just tapped into the right community for the style of game we are creating. I wasn't even ready to post about our idea for YOUR perusal yet, but I wanted SOMETHING to ground out ... the euphoria.
In an hour I have some serious food for thought. I'm looking forward to what gets posted when the sun comes up.
[EDIT: and someone did slashdot us on gamespot.com I have since found out, but it was only 2 hours ago]
#9
Well here's some more. How many of those hits were humans? How many of the humans that came to your site, didn't see any screenshots, and immediately left? Let's be generous and say 1,000 people took the time to read the text on the site. How many of those people will be back?
Hits are easy. Having a finished product that converts hits to sales is hard.
09/30/2005 (12:16 am)
"but I wanted SOMETHING to ground out ... the euphoria."Well here's some more. How many of those hits were humans? How many of the humans that came to your site, didn't see any screenshots, and immediately left? Let's be generous and say 1,000 people took the time to read the text on the site. How many of those people will be back?
Hits are easy. Having a finished product that converts hits to sales is hard.
#10
09/30/2005 (6:17 pm)
Along Josh's bitter lines, you should probably register your site with the major search engines asap. i cant find you via Google. 
#11
As the producer, you have the danger of being a slave to investors.
Gratz on generating a buzz, it will help drive you and your team.
My opinion is generate a buzz, and then lock it down tight.
Do it in bursts until you are ready to go "live", this will help you understand what kind of resources you need and what to expect.
I personally wouldn't want the stress of trying to keep the buzz up.
Also, Josh has a very good point.
Not all of those hits are humans.
The first time (and only so far) I released a demo, I realized I was in WAY over my head.
But it helped me get perspective.
Your goals seem very realistic.
I feel that TGE is a great choice for this type of game.
Good luck, I think if you keep at it, you will do very well.
Ari
10/02/2005 (7:57 pm)
Keep it secret, keep it safe.As the producer, you have the danger of being a slave to investors.
Gratz on generating a buzz, it will help drive you and your team.
My opinion is generate a buzz, and then lock it down tight.
Do it in bursts until you are ready to go "live", this will help you understand what kind of resources you need and what to expect.
I personally wouldn't want the stress of trying to keep the buzz up.
Also, Josh has a very good point.
Not all of those hits are humans.
The first time (and only so far) I released a demo, I realized I was in WAY over my head.
But it helped me get perspective.
Your goals seem very realistic.
I feel that TGE is a great choice for this type of game.
Good luck, I think if you keep at it, you will do very well.
Ari
#12
There is actually quite alot of us game devs up here.
Gish was created by some guys from my home town.
Ari.
10/02/2005 (8:00 pm)
Oh, and I live about 90 mins north of Ant in Mendocino county.There is actually quite alot of us game devs up here.
Gish was created by some guys from my home town.
Ari.
#13
It looks like I'm actually moving to Santa Barbara in the next 2 weeks for a new job. I'm looking forward to being closer to the places where game development happens. We'll have to grill out. ;)
[EDIT: If you are interested in seeing how we handled the specifics of our sponsorship program, here's a link to the instructions we posted. http://www.versusthegame.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=179 I can remember if our forum moderator forced people to register to see that forum or not, but if you are interested in how we set it up it might be worth your time.]
10/02/2005 (8:38 pm)
We've opted for a "sponsorship" program, where people can purchase GG.com widgets that we need (Soldier Pack and Tank Pack were sponsored today, actually). Anyone who sponsors a product gets their name used in-game on an object or location. We've had them forward the recipts as well so we can file taxes on them like good little citizens. Response has been fantastic.It looks like I'm actually moving to Santa Barbara in the next 2 weeks for a new job. I'm looking forward to being closer to the places where game development happens. We'll have to grill out. ;)
[EDIT: If you are interested in seeing how we handled the specifics of our sponsorship program, here's a link to the instructions we posted. http://www.versusthegame.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=179 I can remember if our forum moderator forced people to register to see that forum or not, but if you are interested in how we set it up it might be worth your time.]
#14
10/03/2005 (3:24 am)
Quote:Where's the alpha video?www.versusthegame.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=35
#15
Just remember, it's only one person's view, and it is not focused on Indies, but it is a person with a LOT of experience in the business.
I also recommend Game Development and Production by Erik Bethke. That is by Wordware Publishing. ISBN 1-55622-951-8
Both of these books are more focused on the production and business side of the game process. They are relevant, practical, and provide a way of getting your game from concept to FCS. Not the only way to be sure, but it is a path that works. Even if you don't follow it, it makes sense to see all the things you may be expected to do, or handle in the future.
10/03/2005 (7:08 am)
You might also want to take an evening and spend it perusing "The Game Producer's Handbook" by the same happy people who brought you those 3D Game Programming All in One Books by Mr. Finney, Premier Press. The ISBN is 1-59200-617-5.Just remember, it's only one person's view, and it is not focused on Indies, but it is a person with a LOT of experience in the business.
I also recommend Game Development and Production by Erik Bethke. That is by Wordware Publishing. ISBN 1-55622-951-8
Both of these books are more focused on the production and business side of the game process. They are relevant, practical, and provide a way of getting your game from concept to FCS. Not the only way to be sure, but it is a path that works. Even if you don't follow it, it makes sense to see all the things you may be expected to do, or handle in the future.
#16
10/03/2005 (8:57 pm)
If you want to stop getting so many web site hits, i suggest making your site less awesome looking. It's WAY to professional looking. :-D 
Torque Owner Chris