Censorship

#21 The problem I see is that most parents don't know much about the game their child wants to buy, when they see that their kid is trying to buy something with a big-ass sticker on it saying that minors can't buy this game, most parents are going to assume that the game is inappropriate. I don't know of any 12 year olds who can drive to EB games and buy a game, they have to go with their parents anyways, kids already aren't allowed to buy AO games and most stores don't let anyone under 17 buy M rated games, all this does is let the government have their way with what gets out and is put in kids' hands, it's practically censorship. They have a similar policy in Germany Medal of Honor isn't gory, but it DOES involve violence, it's slapped with an 18 on it. This isn't going to just restrict gory games, it's going to restrict anything that the "peeps" in the government feel is violent.

#22 I dont see a problem with this.
why is it a 13 yr old kid needs a game about blowing peoples limbs off n stuff.
let him play something else there are lots of games out there.

now if only they could modify the tv's system of rating and controlling those ratings.

#23

Quote:
don't know of any 12 year olds who can drive to EB games and buy a game, they have to go with their parents anyways

LOL you don't live in the city, do you?

In major U.S. cities (like where I live, East Coast, U.S.A.) tons of kids go to the mall by themselves. We have a thing called mass transit. When I go to any one of the malls downtown or anywhere else in the city, I see tons of kids there without adult "guardians" with them. It's a common thing over here. Kids in Philadelphia ride the bus alone as young as 10 years old...many even younger.

#24

Quote:LOL you don't live in the city, do you?

I'd have to agree with Nmuta, I live in Phoenix and kids are packed in the malls at all times, plus theres a gamestop I see each week by a 30 Theater building and the whole area is crawling with kids all alone...

#25 I want the sticker.. that way it will be "cool" to have item..

The sticker will sell a LOT more of the violent games..

When you tell people they can't have something they will try 2x as hard to get it.

#26 The fake ID business will extend to games

#27 Not allowing minors to by a product is NOT unconstitutional.

I think its great. Now the pissed of parents whos kid was killed by someone elses kid while playing Xbox can't bitch as much about how its the game makers fault - never mind the fact that they left two 7 yearolds in a house alone with a loaded shotty or that they - made the choice - to LET thier kids play it...


This will make them take responsibility. Shame they can't just do it, but atleast its getting done.

#28 @ Mat, na, just more bit torrent users.

#29 "Not allowing minors not to by a product is NOT unconstitutional."

But specifically targeting one media with a vague law that can be interpreted by the judge to mean whatever he wants it to mean is.

If they wrote a proper law with proper wording that didn't have a bunch of vague loopholes in it, I don't think it would be an issue. But that doesn't give them any power outside of what the law states. If they are vague, then they have that power.

#30 Have you read the bill? Thats what I thought.

#31 OMG I just read my post. It says ""Not allowing minors not to by a product is NOT unconstitutional." Effectively saying minors must buy a product. ROFL Talk about a screw up.

#32 "Have you read the bill? Thats what I thought."

Please don't act as if I'm some stupid kid whose arguing for the sake of arguing. I have read the bill, and disagree with it on the grounds that it can be interpreted by a judge to be whatever he wants it to be.


First of all, I also have to say that the biggest problem here is that they want to treat games differently than other media because:
"As amended,
this bill makes legislative findings that prolonged
exposure to violent video games may increase feelings of
aggression and cause psychological harm to minors, and that
the state has a compelling interest in preventing such
harms."
A claim that is not justified by any real scientific findings.


In a sane world, this wouldn't be an issue because "reasonable person" would be anybody. But an unreasonable judge, that the state has deemed to be a reasonable person, will cause problems here. It has happened before and if we allow it, it will happen again.

I am pasting below the part of the bill that scares me. Look for the following phrases:

"...if those acts are depicted in the game in a manner
that does either of the following:"

"It causes the game, as a whole, to lack serious
literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for
minors. "

So art can now be defined by a judge through this bill. Wonderful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

3.The state has a compelling interest in preventing
violent, aggressive, and antisocial behavior, and in
preventing psychological or neurological harm to minors
who play violent video games.

"Violent video game" means a video game in which the range
of options available to a player includes killing, maiming,
dismembering, or sexually assaulting an image of a human
being, if those acts are depicted in the game in a manner
that does either of the following:

1.Comes within all of the following descriptions:

A. A reasonable person, considering the game as a
whole, would find appeals to a deviant or morbid
interest of minors.

B. It is patently offensive to prevailing standards in
the community as to what is suitable for minors.

C. It causes the game, as a whole, to lack serious
literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for
minors.

#33 "The Entertainment Software Association (ESA) is disappointed by the California General Assembly's action. We believe that AB 1179 is unnecessary and will restrict the First Amendment rights of California's citizens. Instead of signing a clearly unconstitutional bill into law, we're asking the Governor to focus his resources on a more effective resolution, working with industry in our efforts to help parents make the right game choices for their unique families.

"In the end, this is an effort to substitute the government's judgment for parental supervision and turn retailers into surrogate parents. This is misguided. Each family is unique. There is no question that some games have content that is offensive to some audiences. The same can be said of TV, films, music, and books. But government does not regulate their sales, nor should government regulate the sale of video games. Ultimately, parents -- not government or industry -- must be the gatekeepers when it comes to deciding what media should be brought into the home."

#34 First off, what state is this?

Second off, this is easy to get around - just get your parents, older sibling, friend's sibling, cousin, boyfriend, girlfriend, itfriend, stolen credit card, etc, and have them buy the game for you.

I believe there was a big discussion on this when it was going to be passed in Illinois (?)

[edit]
Oh, and for the record, I support this law, even though I am a minor.
[/edit]

#35 California


"Second off, this is easy to get around - just get your parents, older sibling, friend's sibling, cousin, boyfriend, girlfriend, itfriend, stolen credit card, etc, and have them buy the game for you."

I hope this discussion isn't about how to get around it... that's completely missing the point. Personally, I don't want kids to "get around it" because it undermines our industry and causes things... like this bill!

#36 "A claim that is not justified by any real scientific findings."

Some day you'll learn that just sayng things doesn't make them true.
Over exposure to anything causes psycological harm. Lets stick you in a room for 4 days, and force you to watch depictions of death, rape, sacrificial killing, canabalism, sadism, maiming, dismembering, etc etc the whole time. Think you'll come out the same? Lets try it.

We all know that young kids shouldn't watch violent films, it affects thier perception of reality, why should video games be any different?

#37 "Some day you'll learn that just sayng things doesn't make them true."

There is no need to talk down to me as if I'm some naive little kid (this is the second time) just because I don't agree with you

I'll quote it again:

"As amended,
this bill makes legislative findings that prolonged
exposure to violent video games MAY increase feelings of
aggression and cause psychological harm to minors, and that
the state has a compelling interest in preventing such
harms."

May increase feelings of aggression, may cause psychological harm. Why don't they say it DOES? Because it hasn't been proven.

My goal is not to try and say "yes it does" or "no it doesn't". I personally think it does have an effect, but no more of an effect than playing cowboys and indians with your friends in the yard, or any more of an effect than watching a movie with over the top violence, or listening to NWA. Thats not the point. The point is that there are no substantial scientific findings that prove that video games, moreso than movies and print, cause psychological harm. Without these findings, you cannot treat games differently than you do the other forms of media. It is unfair to the industry, and it will cause undue hardship on the game development business.

#38 @Chris:
Lets stick you in a room for four days and force you to watch nothing but Barney and Tellytubbies.

All things in moderation.

#39 When it comes down to aggression/violence in kids, it all comes down to a matter of factors throughout their life, be it school, work, home, family, friends, specific events, whatever. As many of us agree, ignoring all of the other factors and blaming video games is ludicrous.

I've been playing Doom, Heretic and Quake since I was 9, and I have never hurt anybody; in fact, I still play those games (and other more violent ones) and I have never hurt anyone.

Also, I keep hearing all of this talk about enforcing rules about not selling mature games to minors; I thought that had already been established years ago.

#40 @Chris again:

Even very, very young children can differentiate between real violence (snuff) and fake violence (video games). The latter has next to no effect. What they should be more worried about is the addictiveness of some genres. MMORPG's (one or two each year) have caused the deaths of more people than any stupid kid imitating a violent video game (none proven).