Turn-Based Strategy without a grid
by Joe Bourrie · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 09/29/2005 (10:45 am) · 10 replies
Just curious if this has ever been done (I don't play much turn-based):
In the tabletop games, such as Warhammer, there is no grid or hex-map. Instead, everything is based on distances and exact position. Have there been any games that have successfully pulled this off (real-time doesn't count)? Is this common?
Thanks
Joe
In the tabletop games, such as Warhammer, there is no grid or hex-map. Instead, everything is based on distances and exact position. Have there been any games that have successfully pulled this off (real-time doesn't count)? Is this common?
Thanks
Joe
#2
09/29/2005 (12:26 pm)
I think Jagged Alliance (at least the second in series) didnt use grid as well. Or they hid it pretty well :)
#3
09/29/2005 (12:28 pm)
Nah, the JA games had a grid, it was just smallish. :) Same goes for the Silent Storm games.
#4
So with that explanation out of the way, has anyone heard anything about other teams developing anything like this?
I'm fairly certain this would be easy to accomplish even in a 3D environment if you utilize a form of "tape measure" that stretches from the unit (well, at least for the UI aspect).
Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on a movement system like this?
03/16/2006 (4:37 pm)
I apologize for the thread necromancy, but this is exactly what some friends and I are getting ready to do. It will be the basis for a proof of concept and shakedown cruise for the team.So with that explanation out of the way, has anyone heard anything about other teams developing anything like this?
I'm fairly certain this would be easy to accomplish even in a 3D environment if you utilize a form of "tape measure" that stretches from the unit (well, at least for the UI aspect).
Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on a movement system like this?
#5
With a tile-based system, you can use A*. With a pixel-based system, you can also use A*, but you have to break the map up into tiles temporarily first. And if you're going to do that, you might as well just make a tile-based game.
If you want to do a pixel-based movement system, there are ai game programming books out there that address the topic. They do, however, address the topic with respect to simple action games, not with respect to strategy games. The fact is that pixel-based movement makes more sense in fast-moving games with close collisions than it does in games where strategy should be the main feature.
03/16/2006 (8:05 pm)
I've thought about a movement system like this, but it would make the AI very hard. The problem is that just the pathfinding could be a nightmare.With a tile-based system, you can use A*. With a pixel-based system, you can also use A*, but you have to break the map up into tiles temporarily first. And if you're going to do that, you might as well just make a tile-based game.
If you want to do a pixel-based movement system, there are ai game programming books out there that address the topic. They do, however, address the topic with respect to simple action games, not with respect to strategy games. The fact is that pixel-based movement makes more sense in fast-moving games with close collisions than it does in games where strategy should be the main feature.
#6
03/16/2006 (10:23 pm)
@Steven Fletcher: So you're recommending a tile based movement in a 3D environment? Won't that cause difficulties with organic shaped terrain features such as hills? 
#7
03/16/2006 (10:35 pm)
Calculate circle units based on points for attack radius, etc. Or, if you triangulate your terrain, you can have some really fun polygonal attack areas. Kind of like La Pucelle (or Disgaea, I can't recall). I have another one that I can't recall either. It never made it out of Japan (for good reason). The system ended up being non-intuitive because it was a turn-based game which pretended to be real-time... But ended up playing rather horribly.
#8
If a grid system would be relatively easier then we may go that direction.
03/16/2006 (10:59 pm)
As much as I would like AI, this really is a "quick" project and I am unsure as to the skills of the programmer we may be bringing onboard (it being a volunteer project we can't be overly picky) and I am no programmer at all.If a grid system would be relatively easier then we may go that direction.
#9
I was envisioning something where you're looking down on a cities, armies, etc. If it's a first-person strategy game, it would be more like an FPS. There was a game that did this (I think it was called Battlezone), but controlling your units was a bit of a pain. Battlezone was real-time though, so I don't know if I should really mention it in this thread...
If you're 3d environment is sort is first person (or nearly first person) in nature, it might make more sense to do some sort of pixel-based AI. Honestly, I was thinking more about strategy games in general and not the 3d part. I know essentially nothing about programming 3d games, so I won't say any more about it.
03/18/2006 (9:07 pm)
@Jason Yarnell: Well, it depends on what the 3D environment is like.I was envisioning something where you're looking down on a cities, armies, etc. If it's a first-person strategy game, it would be more like an FPS. There was a game that did this (I think it was called Battlezone), but controlling your units was a bit of a pain. Battlezone was real-time though, so I don't know if I should really mention it in this thread...
If you're 3d environment is sort is first person (or nearly first person) in nature, it might make more sense to do some sort of pixel-based AI. Honestly, I was thinking more about strategy games in general and not the 3d part. I know essentially nothing about programming 3d games, so I won't say any more about it.
#10
@Steven Fletcher: The pathfinding may not be as much of an issue as you think; an FPS-style floating-point-based pathfinding system might work well enough. To wit:
0. you need to "prime" the map with a bunch of waypoints, one for every "corner" on every obstacle. Each waypoint is "connected" to another waypoint if there are no obstacles between the two.
1. trace a direct line from point A to point B; is there an obstacle in the way?
2. if not, set point B as the target waypoint for movement
3. else :
3a. add points A and B to the waypoint graph as temporary waypoints (to be deleted after pathplanning is done)
3b. using this "expanded" waypoint graph and with the information of the distance between waypoints, plan the shortest path from A to B through a series of waypoints
3c. Save the series of waypoint coordinates into the unit's memory, so it remembers where it's going between turns.
This system works decently, but it doesn't take into account the movement of other units. That is left as an exercise for the reader (i.e. I can't be arsed to think about it right now).
HTH.
04/19/2006 (1:31 am)
@David Blake: Phantom Brave, from the Disgaea team, was a gridless turn-based strategy-RPG. In fact, the system did bear some vague resemblance to 40K and its ilk.@Steven Fletcher: The pathfinding may not be as much of an issue as you think; an FPS-style floating-point-based pathfinding system might work well enough. To wit:
0. you need to "prime" the map with a bunch of waypoints, one for every "corner" on every obstacle. Each waypoint is "connected" to another waypoint if there are no obstacles between the two.
1. trace a direct line from point A to point B; is there an obstacle in the way?
2. if not, set point B as the target waypoint for movement
3. else :
3a. add points A and B to the waypoint graph as temporary waypoints (to be deleted after pathplanning is done)
3b. using this "expanded" waypoint graph and with the information of the distance between waypoints, plan the shortest path from A to B through a series of waypoints
3c. Save the series of waypoint coordinates into the unit's memory, so it remembers where it's going between turns.
This system works decently, but it doesn't take into account the movement of other units. That is left as an exercise for the reader (i.e. I can't be arsed to think about it right now).
HTH.
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