Torque Commercial EULA Changes
by Prairie Games · in Torque Game Engine · 09/11/2005 (7:42 am) · 75 replies
The Torque Commercial License EULA has been changed. It would appear to now be impossible to create "Code Packs" or other tools with the commercial license.
Under restrictions: (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;
Also, the previous license allowed you to make "source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products" while the new one only allows "executable electronic single or multi-user products".
Of course, there is a major loophole: "(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine"
Under the new license, it's not possible to create console products for XBox, PS2, or GameCube without a seperate agreement.
The Changes:
.. is now:
... and this:
...has been changed to:
Both contain this:
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Under restrictions: (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;
Also, the previous license allowed you to make "source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products" while the new one only allows "executable electronic single or multi-user products".
Of course, there is a major loophole: "(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine"
Under the new license, it's not possible to create console products for XBox, PS2, or GameCube without a seperate agreement.
The Changes:
Quote:
2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single "seat" to an individual, a limited non-exclusive license to use the Torque Game Engine ("Engine) for the purposes of making source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").
.. is now:
Quote:
2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single seat to an individual, a limited non-exclusive license to use the Torque Game Engine (Engine) for the purposes of making executable electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").
... and this:
Quote:
The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Products; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; or (iv) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.
(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.
...has been changed to:
Quote:The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Products; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames; or (v) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.
(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.
(c) Licensee may not release Products intended for operation on Game Console Systems including the Microsoft XBox, Sony Playstation 2, Nintendo GameCube, or their successors without first obtaining a separate Torque Game Engine Console License from GarageGames.
Both contain this:
Quote:9. MISCELLANEOUS.
This Agreement may be amended only by a writing signed by both parties.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#62
Which is why we didn't even mention it in the first place...it changed more than 2 months ago, and only makes clarifications to the spirit of the original EULA license.
09/13/2005 (1:20 pm)
Did you purchase commercial torque? Because that's the EULA that has changed.Which is why we didn't even mention it in the first place...it changed more than 2 months ago, and only makes clarifications to the spirit of the original EULA license.
#63
Josh wasnt the one yelling fire, but the maturity of individuals when something curious comes up can often be called into question ;)
I appreciate the time Mr. Williams took to clarify the changes for the community and maybe it's a thought for the next licensing change that you could make an explanation thread pre-empting such diversions as these.
So to the collective Josh's I say thank you =)
Mark
09/13/2005 (1:22 pm)
First, Thanks Josh Ritter for pointing out the change. I am sure the GG crew didnt intend anything sinister or underhanded by the alterations and certainly protecting their livelihood, an din turn our livelihood as a community, is understandable. However I am glad Josh had the stones to stand up and ask about this because it does affect the community as a whole, especially since most of us use at least 1 or more 3rd party "tools" for Torque development.Josh wasnt the one yelling fire, but the maturity of individuals when something curious comes up can often be called into question ;)
I appreciate the time Mr. Williams took to clarify the changes for the community and maybe it's a thought for the next licensing change that you could make an explanation thread pre-empting such diversions as these.
So to the collective Josh's I say thank you =)
Mark
#64
As for this thread, thanks to Josh Williams for his response.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/13/2005 (1:37 pm)
Tthe Commercial License changes are significant. As a Commercial License holder, I am surprised we weren't made aware of them. As for this thread, thanks to Josh Williams for his response.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#65
If I read well "This Agreement may be amended only by a writing signed by both parties." so the previous Commercial License holder should not be affected by this change. So why not explain how this new license will affect old license? Do we have to accept the new license to update our engine ? ...
I understand the need to change the license but it is now very restrictive, when we have started making games with torque we thought we could port torque to new platform, with the new license we need to ask Garage Before.
Also the article saying that you can't create a game making tool is in my point not accurate at all, for example our game graal include a level editor and this is a game making tool, so if we accept the new license we can not distribute such tools.
I personally don't appreciate to hear that you should read the license nicely and understand that garage will only use such license against "very bad companies". Imagine that one day Garage is sold to another bigger company and imagine that this company wants to stop my company for distributing our game, who will stop them? We have seen such example in the news a few month ago.
We have taken lot of months to rewrite our game engine to use part of torque because the license was very liberal and we now discover that the rules have changed, I am personally very unhappy about it.
If garage goal was to stop some companies that were abusing the license then they should have modified the license to stop specifically such companies but not make general rules that make half of the product illegal.
I will be happy to make business with Garage but I don't want to ask authorisation for running my business.
10/20/2005 (6:43 am)
Sorry to come after the battle but I have been really surprise by this new license and the comments made by Garage.If I read well "This Agreement may be amended only by a writing signed by both parties." so the previous Commercial License holder should not be affected by this change. So why not explain how this new license will affect old license? Do we have to accept the new license to update our engine ? ...
I understand the need to change the license but it is now very restrictive, when we have started making games with torque we thought we could port torque to new platform, with the new license we need to ask Garage Before.
Also the article saying that you can't create a game making tool is in my point not accurate at all, for example our game graal include a level editor and this is a game making tool, so if we accept the new license we can not distribute such tools.
I personally don't appreciate to hear that you should read the license nicely and understand that garage will only use such license against "very bad companies". Imagine that one day Garage is sold to another bigger company and imagine that this company wants to stop my company for distributing our game, who will stop them? We have seen such example in the news a few month ago.
We have taken lot of months to rewrite our game engine to use part of torque because the license was very liberal and we now discover that the rules have changed, I am personally very unhappy about it.
If garage goal was to stop some companies that were abusing the license then they should have modified the license to stop specifically such companies but not make general rules that make half of the product illegal.
I will be happy to make business with Garage but I don't want to ask authorisation for running my business.
#66
You Talked about an torque xbox 360 is that a licence that will allow you to test your games on the 360 before selling them. What do I need to do to get my game on the 360
10/20/2005 (7:57 am)
Jeff Tunnel,You Talked about an torque xbox 360 is that a licence that will allow you to test your games on the 360 before selling them. What do I need to do to get my game on the 360
#67
10/20/2005 (7:59 am)
How much will the xbox, xbox 360 licence cost will it be affordable. 
#68
EDIT:
The first point is to have a game. If you do not have a game--ie only and idea for a game--nothing will get your game to the 360. If you have a game made in Torque, let GG evaluate it and give critical feedback. Accept and utilize the feedback. Then, when it seems that you have a profitable title, extend your contracting options.
I have no idea if you have a near-complete title or not, but I thought I should mention that if it is a serious inquiry (ie. nearly complete title that needs honing rather than base development) GG is very serious about helping you get your game to market or at least providing valuable feedback.
10/20/2005 (8:03 am)
Gaining an official license from Microsoft and the cost associated with that will be much more painful than having GG help with the port to the 360.EDIT:
The first point is to have a game. If you do not have a game--ie only and idea for a game--nothing will get your game to the 360. If you have a game made in Torque, let GG evaluate it and give critical feedback. Accept and utilize the feedback. Then, when it seems that you have a profitable title, extend your contracting options.
I have no idea if you have a near-complete title or not, but I thought I should mention that if it is a serious inquiry (ie. nearly complete title that needs honing rather than base development) GG is very serious about helping you get your game to market or at least providing valuable feedback.
#69
10/20/2005 (8:11 am)
How do I gat the licence from Microsoft, Do you know how much it is.
#70
10/20/2005 (8:19 am)
Why not just ask Microsoft how much they'd sell you an XBOX 360 dev kit for? Gotta be easier than us just guessing at numbers. 
#71
And I would assume that the details are under NDA, so you can't tell other people.
10/20/2005 (8:30 am)
It's pretty hard getting a dev kit off MS (or sony) even if you offer to pay. And I would assume that the details are under NDA, so you can't tell other people.
#72
Stephane Portha
If you have concerns about your commercial license, I'd highly recommend that you contact GarageGames directly. I'd recommend Davey, Stephen or Josh.
XBox 360 Development
This really doesn't have anything to do with the Commercial EULA changes. However, I'll share the path that GarageGames outlined during IGC of how to get onto the XBox 360:
1. Build your game using TSE on the PC. Make sure the game is in the spirit of XBox 360 Live Arcade.
2. Finish your game.
3. Did I mention finish your game? :o)
4. Contact GarageGames and work with them to move your finished game over to the XBox 360.
There are other pathways to get onto the XBox 360, but the above is what I understand to be true if you wish to make use of the folks at GarageGames.
- LightWave Dave
10/20/2005 (8:44 am)
Greetings!Stephane Portha
If you have concerns about your commercial license, I'd highly recommend that you contact GarageGames directly. I'd recommend Davey, Stephen or Josh.
XBox 360 Development
This really doesn't have anything to do with the Commercial EULA changes. However, I'll share the path that GarageGames outlined during IGC of how to get onto the XBox 360:
1. Build your game using TSE on the PC. Make sure the game is in the spirit of XBox 360 Live Arcade.
2. Finish your game.
3. Did I mention finish your game? :o)
4. Contact GarageGames and work with them to move your finished game over to the XBox 360.
There are other pathways to get onto the XBox 360, but the above is what I understand to be true if you wish to make use of the folks at GarageGames.
- LightWave Dave
#73
You are correct, and correct as well on the upgrade. If for whatever reason you absolutely do not want the "new" (it's actually been the commercial license for months) license, then simply don't do any version upgrades. Do not that if you do exceed $250k, etc., then you will need to come back to the table regarding upgrading from indie to commercial.
Even the old indie and commercial license said specifically that it was a license for Mac, PC, and linux. This "new" license doesn't change much (if anything) at all--it simply makes it more clear what the Indie and Commercial licenses are intended for.
Stephane, I highly suggest that you email Jeff T. or Mark F. regarding your concerns--as we've noted above, there are a variety of reasons (not the least of which NDA concerns on your part) why this discussion should be handled via email. I'm confident that either one of those two can help you get a better feel for how the license applies to your particular position.
10/20/2005 (8:55 am)
@Stephane: Don't take this the wrong way, but you are over-reacting to an over-reaction!Quote:
If I read well "This Agreement may be amended only by a writing signed by both parties." so the previous Commercial License holder should not be affected by this change. So why not explain how this new license will affect old license? Do we have to accept the new license to update our engine ? ...
You are correct, and correct as well on the upgrade. If for whatever reason you absolutely do not want the "new" (it's actually been the commercial license for months) license, then simply don't do any version upgrades. Do not that if you do exceed $250k, etc., then you will need to come back to the table regarding upgrading from indie to commercial.
Quote:
I understand the need to change the license but it is now very restrictive, when we have started making games with torque we thought we could port torque to new platform, with the new license we need to ask Garage Before.
Even the old indie and commercial license said specifically that it was a license for Mac, PC, and linux. This "new" license doesn't change much (if anything) at all--it simply makes it more clear what the Indie and Commercial licenses are intended for.
Stephane, I highly suggest that you email Jeff T. or Mark F. regarding your concerns--as we've noted above, there are a variety of reasons (not the least of which NDA concerns on your part) why this discussion should be handled via email. I'm confident that either one of those two can help you get a better feel for how the license applies to your particular position.
#74
10/20/2005 (9:34 am)
So if I get a commercial licence what all changes compared to the Indie, because I,m planning to upgrade all of my licences the end of Jan.
#75
10/20/2005 (11:24 am)
Well, it starts by reading both licenses, and then asking yourself if you need a commercial license (say you need a per-seat license rather than a per-programmer license). The EULA for both are included on the site. Read them in something that lets you compare page-to-page. 
Torque Owner Jedive