Torque Commercial EULA Changes
by Prairie Games · in Torque Game Engine · 09/11/2005 (7:42 am) · 75 replies
The Torque Commercial License EULA has been changed. It would appear to now be impossible to create "Code Packs" or other tools with the commercial license.
Under restrictions: (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;
Also, the previous license allowed you to make "source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products" while the new one only allows "executable electronic single or multi-user products".
Of course, there is a major loophole: "(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine"
Under the new license, it's not possible to create console products for XBox, PS2, or GameCube without a seperate agreement.
The Changes:
.. is now:
... and this:
...has been changed to:
Both contain this:
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Under restrictions: (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;
Also, the previous license allowed you to make "source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products" while the new one only allows "executable electronic single or multi-user products".
Of course, there is a major loophole: "(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine"
Under the new license, it's not possible to create console products for XBox, PS2, or GameCube without a seperate agreement.
The Changes:
Quote:
2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single "seat" to an individual, a limited non-exclusive license to use the Torque Game Engine ("Engine) for the purposes of making source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").
.. is now:
Quote:
2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single seat to an individual, a limited non-exclusive license to use the Torque Game Engine (Engine) for the purposes of making executable electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").
... and this:
Quote:
The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Products; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; or (iv) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.
(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.
...has been changed to:
Quote:The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Products; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames; or (v) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.
(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.
(c) Licensee may not release Products intended for operation on Game Console Systems including the Microsoft XBox, Sony Playstation 2, Nintendo GameCube, or their successors without first obtaining a separate Torque Game Engine Console License from GarageGames.
Both contain this:
Quote:9. MISCELLANEOUS.
This Agreement may be amended only by a writing signed by both parties.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#42
The licenses are significantly different. If we end up "fighting" about this we have the option of fighting over the previous license anyway...
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (4:12 pm)
@Anton: Holding people accountable for other's words is extremely annoying. This is as valid a forum topic as any... and more valid than most.The licenses are significantly different. If we end up "fighting" about this we have the option of fighting over the previous license anyway...
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#43
09/11/2005 (4:19 pm)
As Jeff Tunnel mentioned (welcome back by the way!), these changes are for the commercial license. I am noting that folks are interested when any of the EULA changes, and while I can't/won't make any promises, I will bring this up and see if we can have a notification of some sort in the future.
#44
My perfect EULA says "Don't take the piss" and that's pretty much what I read here...
If you make a pot of cash from doing bugger all, then that counts as taking the piss... if you work your knackers off and someone else takes the credit.. it seems wrong to me..
Some people work to the letter of the law... others to the spirit of which it was intended... I know which I prefer.
09/11/2005 (4:26 pm)
My perfect EULA says "Don't take the piss" and that's pretty much what I read here...
If you make a pot of cash from doing bugger all, then that counts as taking the piss... if you work your knackers off and someone else takes the credit.. it seems wrong to me..
Some people work to the letter of the law... others to the spirit of which it was intended... I know which I prefer.
#45
I'm sorry if it sounded like you are responsible for Michael's words. Who is that guy anyway?!
This thread coming from you it is alarming for many people. I only gave it a read cause it was written by you. I assumed at the begining that you had already talked with GG about it until Jeff responded. I don't even begin to think that I understand this topic as well as you. I suspect that many others don't either. I am really just suprised by the whole thing. I honestly don't see what the issue is.
09/11/2005 (4:34 pm)
@JoshI'm sorry if it sounded like you are responsible for Michael's words. Who is that guy anyway?!
This thread coming from you it is alarming for many people. I only gave it a read cause it was written by you. I assumed at the begining that you had already talked with GG about it until Jeff responded. I don't even begin to think that I understand this topic as well as you. I suspect that many others don't either. I am really just suprised by the whole thing. I honestly don't see what the issue is.
#46
The Indie License ONLY allows you to make games. The changed Commercial License requires "express written consent and permission from Garage Games" for "game-making tools". Unless these aren't "game-making tools" or you mean making tools for you own private edification, this is flat out wrong.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (4:55 pm)
Quote:You can use Torque to create tools of nearly any kind without our permission. There is nothing in this EULA that prevents you from creating even a tool like Show Tool, or Torque Creator
The Indie License ONLY allows you to make games. The changed Commercial License requires "express written consent and permission from Garage Games" for "game-making tools". Unless these aren't "game-making tools" or you mean making tools for you own private edification, this is flat out wrong.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#47
Game Making tools EG If you took Torque and made another engine, ala Torque 2d. Or, took it and made 3d Uber Game Builder... Not if you take it and use Torque to create a kick ass BSP Editor or some such.
I don't see why the need to start flinnging poo on the forums... Wife leave ya or what? Damn.
09/11/2005 (6:03 pm)
Dude, you are one of those people who takes everything and twists it as far from context as possible.Game Making tools EG If you took Torque and made another engine, ala Torque 2d. Or, took it and made 3d Uber Game Builder... Not if you take it and use Torque to create a kick ass BSP Editor or some such.
I don't see why the need to start flinnging poo on the forums... Wife leave ya or what? Damn.
#48
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (6:07 pm)
Ah, so a kick ass BSP Editor isn't a "game-making tool"... it's so clear now.-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#49
EDIT
I don't use Torque for walkthroughs however. I use a slightly lighter weight program that builds a single exe file.
09/11/2005 (6:13 pm)
A BSP editor is more than a game making tool. I use C Shop to create Virtual Walkthroughs for clients all the time, so yes, that would be correct - despite your attempt at quick witted sarcasm.EDIT
I don't use Torque for walkthroughs however. I use a slightly lighter weight program that builds a single exe file.
#50
09/11/2005 (6:20 pm)
Josh, do yourself a favor, and just start at the top of this page, and re-read every post carefully. Your inability to comprehend basic English is allowing you to quickly and efficiently make an ass of yourself.
#51
I do actually have a Commercial License for Torque. So, this does actually affect me... How about you?
Some people's kids...
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (6:25 pm)
Let's see... I haven't called anyone an ass or insulted their ability to comprehend basic English. I do actually have a Commercial License for Torque. So, this does actually affect me... How about you?
Some people's kids...
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#52
We did have to clarify the commercial EULA, and I think the need for these clarifications will be totally clear when you understand what happened. For obvious reasons, I can't go into too much detail, but in the past few months, we've discovered some pretty major abuse of our commercial license by big companies. We discovered more than one large company in outright violation of the commercial EULA, and others abusing the spirit of the license. To say the least, it sucks to see that kind of stuff. Because of this, we had to clarify the commercial EULA to make certain its intent is clear and to prevent abuse by large companies.
We updated the commercial license as Josh points out, and as Jeff notes, this doesn't affect most people here. The indie license has always been for creating games only, and we needed to clarify what is allowed under the commercial license.
As John attests, our policy on source code products hasn't changed at all. John is a great example of someone who has made a source code product based on Torque. There are other such third party products in the works right now, and seeing projects like that is always very cool. We love seeing stuff like that! Of course, the commercial license requires that you only distribute source to other licensees, and the only guaranteed way to check that someone has a Torque license is to verify it through us, so there has never been an option to create source code products without working with us to verify their legal distribution. I think the reasons we've always needed to be careful about derivative source code products are pretty obvious and totally reasonable.
We also added a needed section on console use to all our licenses. Developing games on consoles is usually a very tightly controlled proposition. For most consoles-- and certainly for those we currently support-- you can only legally build a game on a console if you're appropriately authorized with the console manufacturer or representative publisher in the first place. If you want to use Torque to create such a console game, that's great. To do so, you just have to contact us to get the console license and demonstrate that you're authorized to develop on that console (and we can help work with the appropriate people to get the autorization taken care of if it needs to be). Getting a console development kit and publishing rights is usually not easy for developers and we can legally distribute our console-specific code only to people who are authorized to work on the appropriate consoles. In part to avoid sticky legal situations, we've updated all our licenses to make it clear that console use is restricted in all our tech licenses.
So, I hope this all seems clearer now. And again, please remember that the commercial EULA only affects larger companies or products that aren't games. As such, most people here aren't affected at all. Even if you want to get a commercial license in anticipation of creating a game that'll sell great and push you over the indie threshold, you'll note that none of this stuff affects the ability to make games under the commercial license. The clarifications we recently made were for good reasons. Believe it or not, big companies out there do try to abuse and outright violate the commercial license (sometimes with amazing pomposity), so of course we need to do our best to make sure the license terms are clear and prevent commercial abuse. And if the need arises again, we may make more changes to the commercial EULA as time goes on and we figure out how best to work with commercial customers.
09/11/2005 (6:25 pm)
All, having questions about EULA changes is totally understandable. Let's keep the discussion here calm. There is no need for personal insults especially, they don't help the discussion.We did have to clarify the commercial EULA, and I think the need for these clarifications will be totally clear when you understand what happened. For obvious reasons, I can't go into too much detail, but in the past few months, we've discovered some pretty major abuse of our commercial license by big companies. We discovered more than one large company in outright violation of the commercial EULA, and others abusing the spirit of the license. To say the least, it sucks to see that kind of stuff. Because of this, we had to clarify the commercial EULA to make certain its intent is clear and to prevent abuse by large companies.
We updated the commercial license as Josh points out, and as Jeff notes, this doesn't affect most people here. The indie license has always been for creating games only, and we needed to clarify what is allowed under the commercial license.
As John attests, our policy on source code products hasn't changed at all. John is a great example of someone who has made a source code product based on Torque. There are other such third party products in the works right now, and seeing projects like that is always very cool. We love seeing stuff like that! Of course, the commercial license requires that you only distribute source to other licensees, and the only guaranteed way to check that someone has a Torque license is to verify it through us, so there has never been an option to create source code products without working with us to verify their legal distribution. I think the reasons we've always needed to be careful about derivative source code products are pretty obvious and totally reasonable.
We also added a needed section on console use to all our licenses. Developing games on consoles is usually a very tightly controlled proposition. For most consoles-- and certainly for those we currently support-- you can only legally build a game on a console if you're appropriately authorized with the console manufacturer or representative publisher in the first place. If you want to use Torque to create such a console game, that's great. To do so, you just have to contact us to get the console license and demonstrate that you're authorized to develop on that console (and we can help work with the appropriate people to get the autorization taken care of if it needs to be). Getting a console development kit and publishing rights is usually not easy for developers and we can legally distribute our console-specific code only to people who are authorized to work on the appropriate consoles. In part to avoid sticky legal situations, we've updated all our licenses to make it clear that console use is restricted in all our tech licenses.
So, I hope this all seems clearer now. And again, please remember that the commercial EULA only affects larger companies or products that aren't games. As such, most people here aren't affected at all. Even if you want to get a commercial license in anticipation of creating a game that'll sell great and push you over the indie threshold, you'll note that none of this stuff affects the ability to make games under the commercial license. The clarifications we recently made were for good reasons. Believe it or not, big companies out there do try to abuse and outright violate the commercial license (sometimes with amazing pomposity), so of course we need to do our best to make sure the license terms are clear and prevent commercial abuse. And if the need arises again, we may make more changes to the commercial EULA as time goes on and we figure out how best to work with commercial customers.
#54
09/11/2005 (6:36 pm)
For the record, Josh, I was more implying that if you read every post carefully, you wouldn't have to continue getting impatient with everyone. Since most of the people here don't seem to be effected by the changes, you would've been best off to just e-mail GG to begin with, instead of trying to bring in a flurry of unnecessary drama and getting people all riled up.
#55
Headless chickens come to mind.
... and anyway, if I had emailed Garage Games, then only I would know the story... and someone would have taken the time to fill me in alone... I am not that special.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (6:42 pm)
If they weren't riled up in this thread, they would have picked another. Headless chickens come to mind.
... and anyway, if I had emailed Garage Games, then only I would know the story... and someone would have taken the time to fill me in alone... I am not that special.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#56
09/11/2005 (7:19 pm)
It is all good. I hope questions are answered sufficiently now. If anyone has questions about their own specific product plans or anything, please do feel free to get in touch individually.
#57
09/11/2005 (9:56 pm)
"Headless chickens come to mind." At least none of those "headless chickens" shouted fire in a packed theater.
#58
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (10:08 pm)
I am going to go and glue myself back together. I have been in crunch around 2 years too long.-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#59
09/12/2005 (12:38 am)
Thanks for the clarifications, Josh. That brought things in a different perspective. Perhaps it would be an idea to allow people to receive an opt-in mail about license changes? PayPal, for instance, does this as well and it might help against people feeling bad because they think the license is changed in a sneaky way. Just an idea. 
Torque Owner Chris