Torque Commercial EULA Changes
by Prairie Games · in Torque Game Engine · 09/11/2005 (7:42 am) · 75 replies
The Torque Commercial License EULA has been changed. It would appear to now be impossible to create "Code Packs" or other tools with the commercial license.
Under restrictions: (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;
Also, the previous license allowed you to make "source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products" while the new one only allows "executable electronic single or multi-user products".
Of course, there is a major loophole: "(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine"
Under the new license, it's not possible to create console products for XBox, PS2, or GameCube without a seperate agreement.
The Changes:
.. is now:
... and this:
...has been changed to:
Both contain this:
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Under restrictions: (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;
Also, the previous license allowed you to make "source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products" while the new one only allows "executable electronic single or multi-user products".
Of course, there is a major loophole: "(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine"
Under the new license, it's not possible to create console products for XBox, PS2, or GameCube without a seperate agreement.
The Changes:
Quote:
2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single "seat" to an individual, a limited non-exclusive license to use the Torque Game Engine ("Engine) for the purposes of making source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").
.. is now:
Quote:
2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single seat to an individual, a limited non-exclusive license to use the Torque Game Engine (Engine) for the purposes of making executable electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").
... and this:
Quote:
The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Products; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; or (iv) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.
(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.
...has been changed to:
Quote:The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Products; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames; or (v) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.
(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.
(c) Licensee may not release Products intended for operation on Game Console Systems including the Microsoft XBox, Sony Playstation 2, Nintendo GameCube, or their successors without first obtaining a separate Torque Game Engine Console License from GarageGames.
Both contain this:
Quote:9. MISCELLANEOUS.
This Agreement may be amended only by a writing signed by both parties.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#22
So: Constructor, ShowTool Pro: these are NOT restricted by the license, best as I can tell. You can make these types of tools with impunity.
However: Making something Like 3D Game Studio is not cool with this license. If you want to do this, write your own damn engine. :-)
Note: IANAL. However, given the potential nebulousness of a term like "game making tool", I suspect whoever changed the EULA is also not a lawyer. I stand by my original comment: this isn't that big a deal, unless your sole intention with TGE was to make console games for $450 a developer.
09/11/2005 (1:05 pm)
If it's something that you're selling so that OTHER PEOPLE can make games with YOUR TOOL, that's a game making tool. If it something you're including with your game so people can make CONTENT for a GAME, that isn't a game making tool, that's a content tool.So: Constructor, ShowTool Pro: these are NOT restricted by the license, best as I can tell. You can make these types of tools with impunity.
However: Making something Like 3D Game Studio is not cool with this license. If you want to do this, write your own damn engine. :-)
Note: IANAL. However, given the potential nebulousness of a term like "game making tool", I suspect whoever changed the EULA is also not a lawyer. I stand by my original comment: this isn't that big a deal, unless your sole intention with TGE was to make console games for $450 a developer.
#23
09/11/2005 (1:13 pm)
After thinking about this for a while, I have decided to take a U turn in this debait. I am sure that GG have to protect console development from un approved developers, as part of their commitment to the console manufature. For example if i was to make a game that played on xbox, and it would harm the internal workings of the hardware then that would not be good for microsoft. Also their is legalities for producing software on propriety techonlogy, for example Nintendo passes every game for their systems with the 'seal of approval' so it isn't really GG's making. Im sure that if our games are good enough for consoles then Garage Games would bend over backwards to help with that. At the end of the day Garage Games rely on its users. I just think they could have marketed it a little better.
#24
The change from "source code and object code" to "executable" prevents licensees from selling the Torque's source code.
They have been porting Torque to game consoles, so it wouldn't make sense to use the standard version of Torque for that anyway.
09/11/2005 (1:18 pm)
I understand the term "game-making tool" to be something like Dark Basic or Blitz; strictly speaking, they're not game engines, but they are game-making tools. The change from "source code and object code" to "executable" prevents licensees from selling the Torque's source code.
They have been porting Torque to game consoles, so it wouldn't make sense to use the standard version of Torque for that anyway.
#25
09/11/2005 (1:22 pm)
Yes Laser i agree
#26
The original license allows you to create source and object code products, not soley executables. It doesn't put any limitations on platforms. It also doesn't limit the types of products that can be made. Obviously, creating a competing game engine that doesn't require a Torque Engine license is flat out stupid and completely illegal.
Torque licensees, both indie and commercial, may redistribute the engine's source code to other licensees:
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (1:24 pm)
Wow, some really off base comments. Garage Games has every right to change their EULA at any time.The original license allows you to create source and object code products, not soley executables. It doesn't put any limitations on platforms. It also doesn't limit the types of products that can be made. Obviously, creating a competing game engine that doesn't require a Torque Engine license is flat out stupid and completely illegal.
Torque licensees, both indie and commercial, may redistribute the engine's source code to other licensees:
Quote:Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#27
And with no guaranteed way of knowing who is really a legal licensee distribution can only be done through the GarageGames site, so frankly it doesn't make a difference what the license did or didn't say the outcome is the same - you'll need to contact GarageGames to release the product.
-John
09/11/2005 (1:32 pm)
Quote:
Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine
And with no guaranteed way of knowing who is really a legal licensee distribution can only be done through the GarageGames site, so frankly it doesn't make a difference what the license did or didn't say the outcome is the same - you'll need to contact GarageGames to release the product.
-John
#28
The original license allows you to create source and object code products, not soley executables. It doesn't put any limitations on platforms. It also doesn't limit the types of products that can be made.
The license has changed, period.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (1:40 pm)
Verifying a license and requiring the "express written consent and permission of GarageGames" are different things. The later was added... it's standard practice on this site to use the profile page's "Torque SDK Owner" as ownership proof. In fact, I have emails from Garage Games staff stating to use this method.The original license allows you to create source and object code products, not soley executables. It doesn't put any limitations on platforms. It also doesn't limit the types of products that can be made.
The license has changed, period.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#29
The point I'm making is that regardless of the past and present license agreements I think you'll find that the process you need to follow for releasing a code packs is exactly the same as it always was, and if it isn't your idea of how it was going to work under the old license was most likely wrong.
You still need to contact GarageGames. You still need proper user authorization before handing over code to customers.
This doesn't need to turn into a war. I'm saying that as a 3rd party company making code packs for Torque the process is that same as it's always been.
Continually quoting the old and new license agreements doesn't change how the process works or worked, if you have questions contact GarageGames directly - no publicly made statement by them is going to go into the level of clarification you're obviously looking for.
I believe we already establish that.
-John
09/11/2005 (2:23 pm)
You're going to look up every one of you customers by hand? If you have that kind of time on your hands more power to you.The point I'm making is that regardless of the past and present license agreements I think you'll find that the process you need to follow for releasing a code packs is exactly the same as it always was, and if it isn't your idea of how it was going to work under the old license was most likely wrong.
You still need to contact GarageGames. You still need proper user authorization before handing over code to customers.
This doesn't need to turn into a war. I'm saying that as a 3rd party company making code packs for Torque the process is that same as it's always been.
Continually quoting the old and new license agreements doesn't change how the process works or worked, if you have questions contact GarageGames directly - no publicly made statement by them is going to go into the level of clarification you're obviously looking for.
Quote:
The license has changed, period.
I believe we already establish that.
-John
#30
Changing mouseprint in a EULA is not news, and most companies do it all the time. We are not doing anything sneaky. If you don't think the Commercial license is for you (whenever your company revenue goes above $250,000 or you wish to create a console product), then don't buy it. There is not a better, more liberal license on the market. $495 per seat for an unlimited number of products on every PC platform, with the source code included is more than a great deal.
As evidenced by the Lighting Pack and Show Tool, we welcome code packs and tools. To clarify though. You can use Torque to create tools of nearly any kind without our permission. There is nothing in this EULA that prevents you from creating even a tool like Show Tool, or Torque Creator, or a word processor, or even an AutoCad like product. You simply cannot release our source code nor can you create a competing game engine. Why this makes us scums, or sneaky, or whores, I don't understand. This new language is simple a clarification.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
09/11/2005 (2:23 pm)
Wow, so much furor over nothing that really affects any of you. Most of you use the Indie license. These minor clarifications in our Commercial EULA came from questions we had in sellling more of these licenses. We had some problems with people thinking they could buy the Torque Commercial License, make a few changes and sell a competing game engine. On another front, we now have an XBox Torque and a coming XB360 Torque. The clarification in the Commercial EULA says that the PC/Mac/Linux version is not for console. Again, this has very little effect on you unless you have access to a console develpment kit, have a console product, and have the development expertise to actually port the Torque to a console platform.Changing mouseprint in a EULA is not news, and most companies do it all the time. We are not doing anything sneaky. If you don't think the Commercial license is for you (whenever your company revenue goes above $250,000 or you wish to create a console product), then don't buy it. There is not a better, more liberal license on the market. $495 per seat for an unlimited number of products on every PC platform, with the source code included is more than a great deal.
As evidenced by the Lighting Pack and Show Tool, we welcome code packs and tools. To clarify though. You can use Torque to create tools of nearly any kind without our permission. There is nothing in this EULA that prevents you from creating even a tool like Show Tool, or Torque Creator, or a word processor, or even an AutoCad like product. You simply cannot release our source code nor can you create a competing game engine. Why this makes us scums, or sneaky, or whores, I don't understand. This new language is simple a clarification.
-Jeff Tunnell GG
#31
@Jeff:
If someone takes Torque, adds one feature, and sells this feature requiring the person buying the feature to pay YOU for a Torque license, how is this competing? Wouldn't you want to encourage this???? The new EULA basically reads as a kind of "right of first refusal".
... and you are right, EULA refinement happens all the time.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
09/11/2005 (2:34 pm)
@John: I am slightly more intelligent/versed than you seem to be giving me credit for...@Jeff:
Quote:We had some problems with people thinking they could buy the Torque Commercial License, make a few changes and sell a competing game engine.
If someone takes Torque, adds one feature, and sells this feature requiring the person buying the feature to pay YOU for a Torque license, how is this competing? Wouldn't you want to encourage this???? The new EULA basically reads as a kind of "right of first refusal".
... and you are right, EULA refinement happens all the time.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#32
Aren't you supposed to be out riding bikes with the boys?
Jeff reflected my thoughts on the matter as I use the indie license, and know that a large number of people do too. I also think that it is good that Josh brought up the change, though I'm not sure about the positive effects of the kneejerk reactionaries out there to the changes. Information is a good thing, but sometimes people do very strange things with it.
09/11/2005 (2:44 pm)
@JeffAren't you supposed to be out riding bikes with the boys?
Jeff reflected my thoughts on the matter as I use the indie license, and know that a large number of people do too. I also think that it is good that Josh brought up the change, though I'm not sure about the positive effects of the kneejerk reactionaries out there to the changes. Information is a good thing, but sometimes people do very strange things with it.
#34
Josh,
Its pretty clear to me that Garage Games consents to the way of selling features that you describe above, as long as the method requiring customers to own a Torque license is effective.
09/11/2005 (3:32 pm)
Quote:If someone takes Torque, adds one feature, and sells this feature requiring the person buying the feature to pay YOU for a Torque license, how is this competing? Wouldn't you want to encourage this???? The new EULA basically reads as a kind of "right of first refusal".
Josh,
Its pretty clear to me that Garage Games consents to the way of selling features that you describe above, as long as the method requiring customers to own a Torque license is effective.
#35
09/11/2005 (3:34 pm)
Yes Jeff, Like I said i have made a U turn. I just wish you had been up front. If changing the EULA isnt news to you it is to the actual users. Having said that once the time arises i will get the commercial licence as it still represents an amazing deal. 
#36
09/11/2005 (3:41 pm)
Any idea how much the Torque Game Engine Console License will be? 
#37
09/11/2005 (3:50 pm)
Hey... it's Sept. 11th today. Remember how a few years ago something really tragic happened that actually affected people.
#39
09/11/2005 (3:51 pm)
Yes I am sure all of our thoughts are with everyone who was affected, here in the UK we have resently felt the affect of terrorism.
#40
I thought you and Garage Games were buds? I bet they will talk with you about this directly. Doesn't a public accusation just stir up the community and start a fight? For instance:
09/11/2005 (4:00 pm)
@JoshI thought you and Garage Games were buds? I bet they will talk with you about this directly. Doesn't a public accusation just stir up the community and start a fight? For instance:
Quote:
Michael Wojcik
Member Posted: Sep 11, 2005 08:00
Lame. They are just trying to whore themselves as usual.
Edited on Sep 11, 2005 08:01
Torque Owner John Kabus (BobTheCBuilder)
Code Packs
Regardless of what the Commercial or Indie licenses have said, or do say, GarageGames owns all rights to the Torque source code (notice the copyright at the top of each file) including the right to exclusive distribution of the code. At no time in the past could you legally resell or redistribute the source code (regardless of what the weekend lawyers say).
In order to sell or distribute a code pack (both in the past and today) you must contact GarageGames to work out a distribution deal. Regardless of how you feel on the subject, the only way to guarantee that the person buying or downloading your pack is a Torque licensee is to use the GarageGames site (which means GarageGames needs to be your distributor/publisher).
The specific reference disallowing the creation of game engines and game related tools is 100% necessary. How would you feel if someone had the right to purchase your game and then resell it including all of its assets?
Consider this; someone creating a binary only engine or "tool" similar to Gamemaker or the like, would only need to spend $495 on Torque and could then make a fortune selling a product which competes directly with Torque. The new license specifically prevents this.
Separate Console License
If you can afford a dev license for the major consoles, then you can afford to pay for the extra time and money GarageGames put into making Torque console ready.
Remember I own a company selling 3rd party content packs for Torque, if GarageGames was trying to screw us I'd raise hell, however they're only taking the necessary precautions to ensure our community stays strong.
(these are my personal opinions and are not based on the opinions of GarageGames)
-John
Edit: Bold