Large worlds?

#41 Yes, but if I adopted it now it would be of no use to me. I am really only interested in the large terrains. If it could be back ported into TGE then I would be interested, but as of yet no one has proven that. I will just concentrate on other facets of my development if/when the large terrain code could be usable in TGE or cross platform.

#42 It has been stated in the past, and is still GG's position that we will not be back-porting Atlas to TGE any time in the future.

Nothing stops a TGE + TSE owner from doing the backport themselves for their own project, but it can't be posted for TGE only users since that would violate the TSE EULA (making TSE code available to TGE).

For what it's worth, the primary technical reason here is that the Atlas module uses current technology techniques and capabilities that aren't backwards compatible to many of the target platforms for TGE.

#43 But won't that bring problems since the terrain uses shaders to render?

#44 I would recommend anyone who wants to backport to Atlas to first read over the code to see what it does, and look at Ulrich's work with chunked LOD system.

There's no reason you couldn't backport it if you wanted. Would it involve actual work? Yes. Is it impossible? No. Would the port be subtly different than what's in TSE? Of course.

This isn't rocket science, guys. :)

#45 Sykoii Member Posted: Sep 05, 2005 21:41
I'm considering Torque for a project, but wanted to know something first:
Does Torque allow for large worlds? In any way, whether it be linked 'missions' (Or whatever Torque calls it maps), or an entire object.

If not, does Torque's framework allow for such an edit, to the terrain engine? Its not that hard to change in general, but I'm mostly concerned about the mission editor.


I think throughout this thread everyone missed giving the answer this person should have gotten

yes you can make your world as large as you want .. through use of multiple mission areas
and yes you can LINK them through load screens and portals

HOWEVER each mission area requires a SERVER

unlike the engines used by titles like Ryzom and Dark and Light and similiar games like IRTH
where one server holds the entire world " or CAN hold "
sometimes demands of the community require division of the world
however these engines have more advanced networking and the user
is unaware of the boundaries

The Torque system is for people or teams that do not have a Corporate or large company
budget and a team of 50-100 individuals to dedicate to a game project
It allows for gaming concepts of puzzle solving object interaction
character traits interactions and so for to be developed
the resulting DEMO of the game then can be SOLD to a
large company for publish by a large team and a more advanced gaming solution
or the end product itself could be a marketable product if the authors have
a high degree of expertise
or lastly the end product could show so much market promise that they
continue to final market release themselves by changing the gaming platform
enhancing the whole game in every aspect
while maintaining those particular design elements that actually make the game

one must always consider that chess played with rocks is still chess

a game is set of rules that all player abide by the winner or players
compete in some way or its not a game its just a virtual world

how your players interact the activities and persuits of the game
and the enviroment it creates in ones mind's eye is far more
crutial than the picture one gets when logging in

so to answer the original posters question
yes you can make anything your mind can imagine
assuming your brain is up to the task

#46 Well, my game requires a large and continuous world, and I wanted to do it on TGE. How will I do it without changing the code itself - "HOWEVER each mission area requires a SERVER". Is this true? I have asked a lot of questions about the Mission and the Terrain on TGE, but nearly all of them have been unanswered. Ever since I played the Game "Dungean Seige", I was impressed with their terrain. There is a certain topic about how "Gas Powered Games" accomplished it -(http://www.drizzle.com/~scottb/gdc/continuous-world.htm). GG if the others guys can do it, why can't you? Or me?

Jesse

PS please answer.

#47 You can change the terrain's scale. But then you'll have to rescale the textures aswell... and it won't be nice and smooth. Maybe it's possible with some source changes in the terrain code.

And even if you get it to work... you'll have to find a way for loading. You can't just load the whole world at once.. The mission lighting alone would kill the player, if you have a few cities on your map. Not to mention the possible low fps you'll get with all that stuff loaded.

I'm still working on the terrain code of torque, but didn't have to much luck. I did get it to work on TSE though... but there's no good terrain editor for that yet. When that gets released in TSE it would be perfect. TSE supports huge terrains.

#48

Quote:GG if the others guys can do it, why can't you? Or me?

With the right know-how, you can create paging terrain or missions. It would require a number of things, however. One of the major requirements would be an intimate knowledge of the terrain engine and more specifically how it interacts with other objects (interiors, models, paths, etc). That way you could even create a completely new renderobject that manages terrain the way you need it...as long as you understand all of the hooks you would need to add. There's nothing stopping you from doing it except for you. And GG has created paged terrain, but it required a rewrite of the terrain code and has been implemented in TSE under Atlas. Now, even Atlus, though paging, does not have everything you would need to make a Dungeon Seige clone. You would still need to make some rather major modifications. But you would at least have the difficulty of paged terrain down.

For example, I started working on a paged interior idea that I had. I actually had interiors loading/unloading and forcing a relight (it was ugly, but it was a prototype. My problem was scoping paths and non-interior object placement (the objects I'm sure I could have figured out). The paths were a bit different if they crossed areas and then were unloaded with the area. I would have had to segment them away from the un/loading process and then make sure that they did not get lost in limbo as I moved between areas (say, having a NPC enter a room as you leave (and see it enter). Then you enter again only to find that they were paged out. It was stupid little things like that which annoyed me. I didn't spend much time on it simply because it ended up not being worth the time for what little "immersion" it provided.

Quote:Well, my game requires a large and continuous world, and I wanted to do it on TGE. How will I do it without changing the code itself

You can't. You will have to change or rewrite large chunks of the terrain code to provide for paging.

Quote:"HOWEVER each mission area requires a SERVER". Is this true?

Do not confuse server instancing, physical servers, and such. The mission setup pops the mission information out to the clients. You can write the server so that it passes information according to your specifications. If, however, you want a large persistent world which is ghosted to a number of clients, you will most likely need a number of server instances keeping track of many, many things. Check out some of Josh Ritter's blogs on how he dealt with this issue in MoM. You will have to do some modification on how the server sends and updates mission information regardless.

What you are thinking of is the exception to the rule. Most single-player RPG's still do not use paged data but have loading screens. Ultima 6 had paged huge worlds and it was the only one I can think of. Years later when Ultima 7 and 9 were released, they were still about the only ones. The MMO revolution has attempted to shift it from loading screens. This has the practical happiness of not having to deal with a variety of information exchange. Paging is the standard, plus all of the touting of it being more immersive has settled well with some people.

#49

Quote:
"HOWEVER each mission area requires a SERVER". Is this true?

What's odd with that? A game needs a server or the game won't function, same with missions. There needs to be something that processes and makes your game run.

I'm not sure you fully understand the word 'server' in this case. A server doesn't have to be a machine that you connect to. A server can be local, like you see in many single player games, or remote, like you see in many multiplayer games.

The difference here is that few refer "local servers" to "servers" at all, they instead chose to call it singleplayer for the sake of simplicity. So if that's what you mean, then yes - you can run a mission on one machine and play it at the same time. Like Dungeon Siege.

Edit: David explained the rest nicely, cheers.

#50 He means the idea of having multiple maps. Somebody came up with the idea of having multiple servers running, and forcing the client to "hop" between them to make a large world possible. Each server running on a different port offcourse.

#51 Is it possible (through hacking, but not an insane amount of hacking) to have one server running multiple missions at once? I'm fine with heavy modification, but with the way the game engine is written I'm wondering whether one server instance could even handle multiple missions loaded at once... would it even be worth the effort, or would it be better to come up with a good transition system for multiple server instances?

#52 Cliff, whats wrong with having running two game servers on one PC and make communicate it to each other?

#53 Nothing wrong at all, just curious if it's possible to do it the other way. It would be easier to not have to set up communication channels for multiple servers and so on, but division would be easier for distributing if a game grows to needing multiple physical servers.

#54 Torque is fairly general purpose - metaphorically, you're hanging out at the Honda dealership wondering why they don't sell any cars suitable for arctic exploration. ;)

If you want to develop a game like this you are going to have to develop deep knowledge of the relevant issues. Someday you'll be able to get off-the-shelf software that can support a huge mondo world (and in a certain sense you can; see Butterfly, BigWorld, and others), but it's just not going to be the same codebase that can e.g. run an FPS or racing game really well or do a simple puzzle game effectively.

#55 I'm wondering why this post keeps getting bumped... Its close to a year old

#56 Once I get a "Handle" on the Mission and Terrain aspects of TGE, I can then decide what actions to take. My interest only is in a singleplayer game. GG and the license for TGE was chosen from 4 other possibilities. (I admit I am having trouble with the server and client concepts of TGE.)

My first step is the TERRAIN although I am learning blender dts exporter to plug in some objects. I want to learn everything possible about the terrain subroutines (methods), globlas, definitions, classes, etc. as well as torque script. When I first bumbed into TGE, I was impressed with the terrain as well. The other four possibilities were no where close to TGE's capabilities. But as I become aware of TGE's limitations, I become disappointed. (The documentation is out dated but helps.)

TGE Technical Questions:
How does mulitiple missions work in a single player game? How can I use this in an Adventure Role Playing Game to convey different maps of a larger world map? Can missions be switched during game play? I am presently learning how to use height maps and the Terrain Terraform Editor and the meaning of Min Terrain Height and Height Range. In addition to that, I am also looking at the code. Allow me to iterate, I have a very large map... How many missions are allowed in a single player game?

I have not experimented yet on more than one mission.

Maybe some of these questions is not meant for this tread but some of you TGE veterans seem to know more about this area.

Thanks Jesse.

#57 @bank
having like.. 20 servers running isn't really optimal for system resources

@sykoii
a LOT of people want this big world thing. That's why ;)

@jesse
you can just load another map when the player does something or reaches a trigger. They will just get another loading screen. It's up to you to save the rest in variables (like what weapons they have etc.)

#58

Quote:How does mulitiple missions work in a single player game? How can I use this in an Adventure Role Playing Game to convey different maps of a larger world map? Can missions be switched during game play?

Have you ever played a console RPG or 99% of the single-player RPG's out for the PC or Mac? For example, Wild Arms 4 has mission areas where you "play" the game and a world map where you select where to go. This is common in SRPG games as well. Baldur's Gate and a few hundred others have taken this approach. Another approach that is common is area loading between regions which is closer to the Half-Life "Now Loading..." message or the multiple "Now Loading..." screens in Final Fantasy titles (or to get rid of them, use of video files to hide the background level loading).

Quote:I am presently learning how to use height maps and the Terrain Terraform Editor and the meaning of Min Terrain Height and Height Range. In addition to that, I am also looking at the code. Allow me to iterate, I have a very large map... How many missions are allowed in a single player game?

You've done more with the terrain already than I have simply because I haven't had many gametypes that used it in the way that it is intended. A few mini-RPG prototypes and that is about it (and a platformer level that I needed a wide-open space, but most of my platformer stuff is constructed with a variety of paths ala Maximo rather than sprawling Grand Theft Jack and Daxter levels).

You do not have any hard limits for a number of missions, though, in either single-player or multiplayer.

#59 My questions still have not been answered.

My interest is mainly in a singleplayer adventure RPG. MultiPlayer does not interest me. (I have considered MP for playing chess but the former is what I am working on now.) An adventure game requires a large terrain to make it adventerous. Don't you agree. The present size if my interpretation at the forms is correct for a squareSize of 8 is too small. Therefore I need more than one mission. I prefer a continuous world like the Game "Dungean Seige", I was impressed with their terrain. There is a certain topic about how "Gas Powered Games" accomplished it -(http://www.drizzle.com/~scottb/gdc/continuous-world.htm). I attach Adventure on to Role Playing Game because I want it to be vast... There are many NPCs but basically a main race per one local area within a larger world map. I am hoping that that TGE may give me this vastness. If I have to switch among different missions to represent a local area of a larger world map, then maybe this might be workable for me. BUT my questions still have not been answered. I do not want a mini game - I want an engine that can pump out a vast area to make it adventerous.

Jesse.

#60 I think you completely misinterpreted everything I said since I used the word multiplayer. I know you're not making a multiplayer game. You don't have to, but you will have to make concessions for an engine that was designed from the ground-up as a multiplayer engine. Whether or not multiplayer matters to you, you will have to deal with the design factors.

I do not think that "single contiguous huge map" equates to "large-scale adventure", which is what I am getting from your post. Ultima 6 impressed me in the late 80's because it did this, but it was a small tech-trick rather that something necessary. I don't think that an adventure game needs huge terrains. It needs a huge point. King's Quest 3 has a very limited amount of space and it is more "adventurous" than most adventure RPG's I've played which often expand the playing field so that you notice your backtracking much much more, which adds to the playtime but not the "fun time" for adventuring.

The Arena games have helped provide a feeling of "huge worlds" which people like. It is Ultima 6 in 3D with a first-person perspective. But they are the exception, not the rule. Now I can understand wanting to be the exception, but I would think that being a good exception (having fun, adventurous gameplay) over long backtracking sequences to add pointless playtime to the stats of the game. Dungeon Siege's maps did not impress me, perhaps because I had seen paged maps before in a number of incarnations. But some of the story points and character elements were much more impressive.

Having trigger points and pre-calculated lighting between missions would already go a long way. Adding the advanced camera resource for the Godview/Orbit Cam will up the viewpoint. And if you make your mission sizes smaller they will load faster, perhaps masking the trigger loading scheme based on how you work it. For example, if your trigger is well before the edge of the map, you can load the next map (they must be designed with this overlap in mind) and transfer your player to the new map and then delete the previous map. I doubt that this is stock, though, in terms of a mission base. I am just thinking of ways to un/load mission maps quickly and easily. Note that enemies will not cross the mission line in this simple scenario unless you specifically keep track of enemies that also activate triggers. But that's an even stickier topic.

Perhaps we play completely different games, but I try to pick up most RPG's that are released in the US and Japan.