Large worlds?
by Jon C · in Torque Game Engine · 09/05/2005 (9:41 pm) · 87 replies
I'm considering Torque for a project, but wanted to know something first:
Does Torque allow for large worlds? In any way, whether it be linked 'missions' (Or whatever Torque calls it maps), or an entire object.
If not, does Torque's framework allow for such an edit, to the terrain engine? Its not that hard to change in general, but I'm mostly concerned about the mission editor.
Does Torque allow for large worlds? In any way, whether it be linked 'missions' (Or whatever Torque calls it maps), or an entire object.
If not, does Torque's framework allow for such an edit, to the terrain engine? Its not that hard to change in general, but I'm mostly concerned about the mission editor.
#22
This is pretty minimal. :) GF2 has been the standard for a long time, but it's beginning to be time to reasonably move forward. You can get a TSE capable card (one ABOVE min specs, too) for less than $30 these days. Computers ship these days with hardware that can typically run shader apps, too.
Any product you start in TSE now won't ship for at least a year - maybe not for two. In two years, the bottom end will be a bit higher. Check out the unsupported product list on the latest nVidia drivers:
TNT2
TNT2 Pro
TNT2 Ultra
TNT2 Model 64 (M64)
TNT2 Model 64 (M64) Pro
Vanta
Vanta LT
GeForce 256
GeForce DDR
GeForce2 GTS
GeForce2 Pro
GeForce2 Ti
GeForce2 Ultra
GeForce2 MX Integrated graphics
Quadro
Quadro2 Pro
Quadro2 EX
Only the GF2 MX series is still supported. I'd not bank on it being support two years from now.
The current terrain in TGE at its default configuration is 2km by 2km. Atlas supports significantly larger terrains, the maximum size being a few orders of magnitude bigger than the observable universe. In terms of diskspace, you can do 100km-on-a-side terrains pretty reasonably on modern hardware. It's worth noting that even the very largest supported terrain would render in realtime on commodity hardware, if you had a disk array big enough.
Just something to consider when position your game's technology. :)
09/06/2005 (10:41 pm)
Newer meaning, GeForce 3 or newer. On the ATI side, it's a Radeon 8500 or higher. Vertex Shader 1.1 support is required - and it's the lowest level that was ever shipped. You cannot buy hardware that only supports 1.0.This is pretty minimal. :) GF2 has been the standard for a long time, but it's beginning to be time to reasonably move forward. You can get a TSE capable card (one ABOVE min specs, too) for less than $30 these days. Computers ship these days with hardware that can typically run shader apps, too.
Any product you start in TSE now won't ship for at least a year - maybe not for two. In two years, the bottom end will be a bit higher. Check out the unsupported product list on the latest nVidia drivers:
TNT2
TNT2 Pro
TNT2 Ultra
TNT2 Model 64 (M64)
TNT2 Model 64 (M64) Pro
Vanta
Vanta LT
GeForce 256
GeForce DDR
GeForce2 GTS
GeForce2 Pro
GeForce2 Ti
GeForce2 Ultra
GeForce2 MX Integrated graphics
Quadro
Quadro2 Pro
Quadro2 EX
Only the GF2 MX series is still supported. I'd not bank on it being support two years from now.
The current terrain in TGE at its default configuration is 2km by 2km. Atlas supports significantly larger terrains, the maximum size being a few orders of magnitude bigger than the observable universe. In terms of diskspace, you can do 100km-on-a-side terrains pretty reasonably on modern hardware. It's worth noting that even the very largest supported terrain would render in realtime on commodity hardware, if you had a disk array big enough.
Just something to consider when position your game's technology. :)
#23
Just out of curiosity: Is the 'Any product you start in TSE now won't ship for at least a year - maybe not for two. ' comment set in stone? Is there some sort of license agreement I'm missing that requires me to wait that long before releasing a game made in TSE?
09/06/2005 (10:44 pm)
Thanks for the reply Ben,Just out of curiosity: Is the 'Any product you start in TSE now won't ship for at least a year - maybe not for two. ' comment set in stone? Is there some sort of license agreement I'm missing that requires me to wait that long before releasing a game made in TSE?
#24
I'm just making reference to the fact that all but the smallest and most focused game titles take 18 months or longer to make. If you're designing a game where huge terrains are an important issue, it's unlikely that it's going to get done in less than a year. I'm always open to being proved wrong of course. ;)
09/06/2005 (11:00 pm)
Good lord, no. You can ship whenever you want.I'm just making reference to the fact that all but the smallest and most focused game titles take 18 months or longer to make. If you're designing a game where huge terrains are an important issue, it's unlikely that it's going to get done in less than a year. I'm always open to being proved wrong of course. ;)
#25
10/22/2005 (4:01 pm)
Also, as TSE i should clearly state that however it's a great engine, and the terrain engine is great to, the way to make one isnt that great yet. You have to import a 16 bit signed raw file through a console command. I saw somewhere that during TSE development, in-game terrain editing will be added again.
#26
This uses alot of memory that could be avoided if it used blending like the TGE engine.
Is there a mod to allow atlas terrain that uses texture blending?
On a side note, does anybody know how EQ2 does its terrain? They have textures that get swapped in if you set higher detail. Ie low texture detail to very high texture detail??
10/25/2005 (3:19 am)
One of my major complaints with atlas is that it uses 1 solid texture for the entire terrain.This uses alot of memory that could be avoided if it used blending like the TGE engine.
Is there a mod to allow atlas terrain that uses texture blending?
On a side note, does anybody know how EQ2 does its terrain? They have textures that get swapped in if you set higher detail. Ie low texture detail to very high texture detail??
#27
@Azmodeus: It actually uses about 25% of the amount of system/graphics memory as a TGE style terrain would as it uses DXT texture compression. It just has a bigger disk footprint. You can always use the legacy terrain, which is still in TGE, working just fine, and using much less disk space. We also plan on implementing a blender a la TGE as part of the next round of development; right now Atlas is definitely too unwieldy for online distribution of large terrains.
In general Atlas is very efficient and scalable, and we plan on making that to be even more so the case.
10/25/2005 (9:09 am)
We are definitely going to add in-game editing and a lot better set of import tools. Right now we're focusing on TDN and getting TGE 1.4 done (as well as shipping Marble Blast Ultra - don't want to miss that launch window), so resources are tight. Hopefully in the coming weeks development on Atlas will resume again.@Azmodeus: It actually uses about 25% of the amount of system/graphics memory as a TGE style terrain would as it uses DXT texture compression. It just has a bigger disk footprint. You can always use the legacy terrain, which is still in TGE, working just fine, and using much less disk space. We also plan on implementing a blender a la TGE as part of the next round of development; right now Atlas is definitely too unwieldy for online distribution of large terrains.
In general Atlas is very efficient and scalable, and we plan on making that to be even more so the case.
#28
Actually, when you try to edit it in the mapeditor (and you move around), it shakes like an huge earhquake. Possible bug?
10/25/2005 (3:23 pm)
"You can always use the legacy terrain, which is still in TGE, working just fine"Actually, when you try to edit it in the mapeditor (and you move around), it shakes like an huge earhquake. Possible bug?
#29
10/25/2005 (3:28 pm)
Certainly a bug. But I was referring to the runtime aspect of it; we've shipped several XBox titles on TSE and the legacy terrain engine has worked fine in them, so I'd say that if you wanted to use it in a product, you could.
#30
...And i'm keeping my eye on that new torque map editor that's comming out some time...
10/25/2005 (3:32 pm)
Yea i noticed it isnt at runtime, only in the editor. I'm basicly waiting with development untill there are more terrain tools for atlas available. ...And i'm keeping my eye on that new torque map editor that's comming out some time...
#31
11/03/2005 (6:06 pm)
IHi I am new toTorque so I am a bit of a newbiw to the engine, Now I have been told that Torque can t make spherecial terrain(Actual Cyberplanets), you can only import it in and that you can't use the terrain editingtools , but can you use the editor to place things like vehicles, buildings player avatar's A.I e.t.c? Possibly a silly question but I want to make a 3D God Game where you can create your world in either 1st or 3 rd Person
#32
11/04/2005 (2:08 pm)
No the world cant be a sphere. If you find some way to import it, you can still edit other things on it.
#33
11/04/2005 (2:26 pm)
You can import whatever you want and interact with it however you want... but the default terrain code is designed around a flat world. Natively supporting a truly spherical planet is cool but represents a significant investment in time and effort both in making things like gravity work properly, and in frames of reference and similar tricks to make sure that simulations are robust and reliable in all cases.
#34
02/09/2006 (1:54 pm)
Is it possible to use a sphere as a large terrain object 
#35
02/09/2006 (2:23 pm)
Not unless you put your coding hat on. There have been a couple of discussions on spherical terrain, but I don't know if anyone has put it in or not.
#36
Thanks in advance.
02/18/2006 (4:10 pm)
Hi, I'm very new at Torque and I have noob question. What is the largest terrain area supported in square km's?Thanks in advance.
#37
Of course, once you go far enough out, as long as you're running on a finite-state computer you'll run into precision issues. :)
02/18/2006 (4:27 pm)
I think TGE has a default of 64 sq km. (It tiles that much area; you could actually walk much much farther than that.) TSE has unlimited terrain size, although it does not currently tile.Of course, once you go far enough out, as long as you're running on a finite-state computer you'll run into precision issues. :)
#38
02/18/2006 (4:52 pm)
Thanks Ben. 
#39
03/09/2006 (10:48 pm)
I did not realize that TSE is Windows and DirectX only. That is a real show stopper for me adopting it. For now loading new missions for large terrains will probably be the quickest to get going. Not as immersive, but doable. 
Torque 3D Owner Rubes