Gmax scripts and Tge...

#1 Discreet has commented on this. Their position is that this violates the gmax EULA, because it circumvents the intended 'design' of gmax. Unfortunately, all the EULA actually prohibits is decompliation or modification of the GMAX software.

So, legally this is probably allowed. However, the writer of such an exporter might find himself a target of litigation. I believe that with the proper legal support you could beat discreet on this, though.

I think writing an exporter for a more neutral format like, say, milkshape would be much safer than dts, though.

#2 I'm probably the person Ryan is talking about since I posted a link to a gmax export script I wrote.

Do you have any link or reference where I could find some infos about Discreet's point of view on this subject?

My point of view is that it's perfectly legal to use this script. It allows one to use gmax in a way that's not what was intended but that is still authorized according to their EULA (where they say that the software must be used to create game content). They don't explicitly say that the data can only be used with games for which an official export module is available. If that's what they want they would be wise to update their EULA for future users of the product.

#3 Yes, i believe it was marc. the reason i ask is, While i love milkshape, the more i learn about modeling, the more i see use for a higher level tool (ive actually been able to use 3dsmax 3.1 in the comp sci lab on campus). So after reading marcs post on the gmax script and exporting through script rather than through a plugin, i snagged gmax, and it seems like a pretty cool tool. Its not that im frowning upon the current tools, or wishing to circumvent discreet and autodesk out of money, its just a thought... I think a script to export to say, milkshape format or something would probably save much headaches in the long run. the way i see Gmax is to stop the pirating of their 3dsmax software. if they are going to use it for free, give it to them free and make the developers pay for it... Nothing wrong with making a buck :)
Ryan

#4 I though that they have dissabled all exporting thru scripts, only reading files was possible not writting to them. Does the script really work, I can't belive that they have give the user this power.

#5 Marc, the Gmax product manager posted his opinion on this subject in the Gmax user support forums at www.gmaxsupport.com. Since he's a discreet employee speaking in an official capacity, I assume that he's stating the company line on the issue.

#6 Yeah, i couldnt believe that thay would allow that sort of thing through script. That idea is what sparked this whole crazy idea :)
ryan

#7 It's better to just drop GMAX as a tool unless you have the money to buy a seat or a license ~80K. The better thing is to get an existing cheaper tool to work with the engine.

#8 Yeah, I do quite agree with that. I Love milkshape (i can actually get it to work, unlike 3dsmax, though i only tried once) and i was suggesting that using Gmax would be better than pirating 3dsMax... I know your all tired of hearing about GMax, judging by shawns cranky reply... i saw Marc's script and thought "hey, why not"... its that hey why not attitude that im even a programmer to begin with... and a some times video game programmer at that... Ah well, free tools arent always free :/
ryan

#9

Quote:
I though that they have dissabled all exporting thru scripts, only reading files was possible not writting to them. Does the script really work, I can't belive that they have give the user this power.

They tried to disable exporting through scripts, but they didn't do it well and it took me 5 minutes to find out a way to write into a file from gmax with maxscript only. (They may have fixed that hole in a later version though. Mine is 4.2.0.104 (from the file properties, it's not displayed in the app))

Quote:
It's better to just drop GMAX as a tool unless you have the money to buy a seat or a license ~80K. The better thing is to get an existing cheaper tool to work with the engine.

The problem is that gmax is a wonderful tool if it has an export feature and just useless without it. Since the full 3DS Max version is too pricey for many people including myself, there is a strong incentive in finding ways to export data from gmax. I have found an easy way, I think it's perfectly legal but not everyone will agree.

Quote:
Marc, the Gmax product manager posted his opinion on this subject in the Gmax user support forums at www.gmaxsupport.com. Since he's a discreet employee speaking in an official capacity, I assume that he's stating the company line on the issue.

Thank you. It's very interesting.

#10 After reading the various point of views including Discreet's point of view on their forums, I've decided not to distribute this script anymore.

I still think it's perfectly legal but from an ethical point of view I think Discreet has the right to chose what they want to do with their tool and I'll not interfere with that.

It's in my nature to want to help people by sharing my knowledge when I can but in this case that wasn't the right choice.

#11 yeah, im gonna agree with you there. Ill stick with milkshape till i can drop the cash on 3dsmax... when i asked about scripting an exporter, i knew it would be shady, but it was just an idea :)
ryan

#12 Wow, someone managed to get GMaxScript to export, congratulations on the technical feat. I agree that it would be best for you not to pursue this publically though, as such a thing could cause Discreet to stop distributing gmax completely.

So. I wonder if the suits for both companies could come up with a method whereby GG gets a GMax Dev license, creates a legitimate exporter for it, and is then allowed to sell the TGE licensees the exporter? To me, this is just as if TGE was a game like Q3, Flight Sim, and whatever else has legit gmax support.

I know I'd be willing to pay for the ability to use gmax with TGE, and I'm sure Discreet know that the current situation is causing quite a few people to pirate max4 just so they can work on an independent game team in their spare time.

#13 Simon,

There are no "suits" at GarageGames. TO put to bed the gMax debate once and for all, Rick contacted Discreet to see if they had a change of heart about their licensing. Here is what they had to say (excerpt from Rick's email):

Quote:
"I have seen several gMax questions on the forums lately so I thought I would give Discreet a call again and see if anything had changed. Got a call back just a bit ago and I don't see them ever coming up with a model that would work for us. Sad because the tool is exactly what we need.

Basically it goes like this:
$10,000 for 4 developer seats (that expire in 2 years, and you have to renew) $2,500 for additional seats.
$85,000 per product for the privilege of distributing your gMax plugin to your users

the $10,000 up front for the developer seats is set in stone.

They have worked out deals with a couple companies to pay the $85,000 over time, or as "royalties" etc, etc. But at the end of the day they still want the entire $85,000 dollars. And they are reluctant to do such deals because then each sales manger and to track them by hand.

I don't see us getting a gMax license any time soon.

I'll try to get this in the FAQ.

BTW, I cannot, in any way, see how a script that works on data that was created in gMax could violate any kind of usage agreement. The data you create is your own.

Jeff Tunnell GG

#14 Also see this gMax for the Torque thread.
--Rick

#15 Okay, fair enough. It really is a shame, because gmax is absolutely perfect for this.

Btw, I don't use "suits" in a derogatory way. I just figure most companies have someone behind the scenes counting beans and making deals.

#16 I know this is a well stomped on issue, but I came across a thread at some point posing an interesting idea. The quake tempest plug to gmax is free as well. Why not export form gmax with the tempest and import into milkshape to turn around and export as dts. I'm new to milkshape, I've used 3D Studio, but with a student license it doesn't help if the game goes to sale. Anyone have any feedback on this process? Would love to know if anyone has tried it. In the sense of liability I think there wouldn't be a thing they could say. We're following along with what the tool allows you to do and that would be to export in quake format. What gets done with that file afterwards is out of Discreets hands, is it not?

#17 I thought of that but unfortunately, this is even worse from a legal point of view. I'm not a lawyer but I read the EULA for tempest and the only right they are giving you is the right to evaluate it (it's a beta). I strongly advise against using it for a commercial project.
However, I don't think that Discreet has much to lose or to win in trying to enforcing this EULA.

Off course, if you just want to use gmax and tempest for a few tests that's ok.

#18 These money hungry companies truly are the downside to the gaming industry. I'm sure they were in the position we are in at one time and were looking for the same treatment. It's interesting how money can blind a person.

#19 They're no more "money hungry" than you would be if you had a great game and wanted people to pay for it.

Logan

#20 They are just a company trying to do business. That reminds me of the Ferengi's 13th rule of acquisition:

"Anything worth doing is worth doing for money" :)