The real difference...
by Scott Schaefer · in Torque Game Engine · 02/01/2002 (12:56 pm) · 10 replies
This may sound a little on the bonehead side, but bear with me!
I've been using Milkshape for the last few months to create my Huey and to start making some of my other game models. I have never used 3dsmax This is what I want to know:
1. What are the major advantages as far as features to using 3Dsmax instead of milkshape?
2. Is it more user friendly?
3. Can you produce the same quality of models with milkshape as 3dsmax?
Like I said, this may be well known to others, but I have NO experience with max. Thing is that I really do not need a large amount of animated models, and the ones I do need are of a fairly simple nature. An F-4 Phantom, Patrol boat, Low poly aircraft carrier and of course foilage, weapons, and bunkers. There are some others but I don't want to give up all the goods! ;)
Any info would be mucho appreciatedo...
Scott
I've been using Milkshape for the last few months to create my Huey and to start making some of my other game models. I have never used 3dsmax This is what I want to know:
1. What are the major advantages as far as features to using 3Dsmax instead of milkshape?
2. Is it more user friendly?
3. Can you produce the same quality of models with milkshape as 3dsmax?
Like I said, this may be well known to others, but I have NO experience with max. Thing is that I really do not need a large amount of animated models, and the ones I do need are of a fairly simple nature. An F-4 Phantom, Patrol boat, Low poly aircraft carrier and of course foilage, weapons, and bunkers. There are some others but I don't want to give up all the goods! ;)
Any info would be mucho appreciatedo...
Scott
About the author
#2
Well the first major difference, is that 3ds max is multi purpose over $3000 priced complete modelling/animation/rendering package program program, and milkshape is a shareware program priced in less than $50 dollars (I believe) that was made for modelling/animating and creating low poly models for games mostly.
Oh yes, specially 3ds Max 4, there is no denying there. However 3ds max is a multi purpose package meaning that it has tons of options that you dont really need for creating low poly models. (but also it has a ton that you could)
Oh definetily YES, the best models for any game you have seen were probably made on MAX (check the Jhon Stead book reference for examples) MAX can create high poly models with near cinematographic quality and low poly models from them.
However I dont want to shoke milkshape users and confront their flame mail hatred, is just that Milkshape and Max are very different beasts. If MAX had the price that Milkshape has, then we probably wouldnt be having this conversation would we? but the truth is it doesnt, and while we are speaking the truth Milkshape might not be as fancy and have as many "gadgets" as Max but it gets the job done and very well also.
In addition MAX is not only a much expensive beast is also a pretty fat and heavy one, all that extra tools do not load by magic, Max is a known a resource hog and memory eater, heavy weight on your hard drive, using it while your game is running? fat chance! And to be honest they are a lot more tools for high poly models, than they will ever be for low poly modelling.
Anyway it also gets the job done and does it somehow easier at least in some stages, so is not a bad beast neither.
I have used 3ds MAX since it didnt had a last name =) and Im pretty much used to it, I once tried to use milkshape for a change, and have to gave up after a few hours of general frustration back to my beast I went. So I guess I can not say much about it.
Anyway MAX is a nice Beast to try, prepare for a rough ride, since it will kick you from the saddle more than once, but at the end is worth the ride.
I believe that the choice (as always) is yours.
Hope that (in some way) helps.
02/01/2002 (1:36 pm)
Quote:
1. What are the major advantages as far as features to using 3Dsmax instead of milkshape?
Well the first major difference, is that 3ds max is multi purpose over $3000 priced complete modelling/animation/rendering package program program, and milkshape is a shareware program priced in less than $50 dollars (I believe) that was made for modelling/animating and creating low poly models for games mostly.
Quote: 2. Is it more user friendly?
Oh yes, specially 3ds Max 4, there is no denying there. However 3ds max is a multi purpose package meaning that it has tons of options that you dont really need for creating low poly models. (but also it has a ton that you could)
Quote:
3. Can you produce the same quality of models with milkshape as 3dsmax?
Oh definetily YES, the best models for any game you have seen were probably made on MAX (check the Jhon Stead book reference for examples) MAX can create high poly models with near cinematographic quality and low poly models from them.
However I dont want to shoke milkshape users and confront their flame mail hatred, is just that Milkshape and Max are very different beasts. If MAX had the price that Milkshape has, then we probably wouldnt be having this conversation would we? but the truth is it doesnt, and while we are speaking the truth Milkshape might not be as fancy and have as many "gadgets" as Max but it gets the job done and very well also.
In addition MAX is not only a much expensive beast is also a pretty fat and heavy one, all that extra tools do not load by magic, Max is a known a resource hog and memory eater, heavy weight on your hard drive, using it while your game is running? fat chance! And to be honest they are a lot more tools for high poly models, than they will ever be for low poly modelling.
Anyway it also gets the job done and does it somehow easier at least in some stages, so is not a bad beast neither.
I have used 3ds MAX since it didnt had a last name =) and Im pretty much used to it, I once tried to use milkshape for a change, and have to gave up after a few hours of general frustration back to my beast I went. So I guess I can not say much about it.
Anyway MAX is a nice Beast to try, prepare for a rough ride, since it will kick you from the saddle more than once, but at the end is worth the ride.
I believe that the choice (as always) is yours.
Hope that (in some way) helps.
#3
02/01/2002 (1:44 pm)
Wow! that script looks just like we needed! do you know where can we find info on the DTS, DTQ formats?
#4
Sch(a)efers have to stick together :).
Thanks again
Scott
BTW Can I export the animations and everything?
02/01/2002 (2:29 pm)
Wow! Thanks guys for the quick replies. I am downloading Gmax right now as we speak. Hey Matt, this may sound silly but how do I use this file? Us Sch(a)efers have to stick together :).
Thanks again
Scott
BTW Can I export the animations and everything?
#5
Sorry, I don't know if there is file format description somewhere for these formats. But since we have the source of the engine, we just need to read the code and figure it out. (The code of the 3DS Max exporter plugins might help too, even if they don't work in gmax).
02/01/2002 (2:29 pm)
Answer for BurningRose:Sorry, I don't know if there is file format description somewhere for these formats. But since we have the source of the engine, we just need to read the code and figure it out. (The code of the 3DS Max exporter plugins might help too, even if they don't work in gmax).
#6
You'll need to modify the script for your own purpose as it's not a finished torque-ready script. It's just a demonstration that you can export the mesh data from gmax in your own format. You'll need to read the docs about 3d max scripting and stuff... I don't know yet if I want to use gmax for my modelling. If I do, I may write the required code myself and share it with the community, but don't expect anything soon.
02/01/2002 (2:36 pm)
Answer for Scott:You'll need to modify the script for your own purpose as it's not a finished torque-ready script. It's just a demonstration that you can export the mesh data from gmax in your own format. You'll need to read the docs about 3d max scripting and stuff... I don't know yet if I want to use gmax for my modelling. If I do, I may write the required code myself and share it with the community, but don't expect anything soon.
#7
I'm not sure how well that argument would hold up in court. I'm not versed in the gmax EULA but I'm thinking that while your script wouldn't be illegal in the context of a non commercial modification, you probably still can't legally include gmax generated models in a commercial game without licensing the program ($80K-$95K).
Case in point - someone grafted Q3Radiant support into the map compiler at one point but then someone noticed how the license for Q3Radiant, while it has no problem making maps for nonprofit purposes, disallows use of the program for making maps for commercial product without the payment of a licensing fee to id.
But hey, I could be wrong
Schnapple
02/04/2002 (7:27 am)
Quote:this not a crack, just a script written using the provided scripting language, 100% legal
I'm not sure how well that argument would hold up in court. I'm not versed in the gmax EULA but I'm thinking that while your script wouldn't be illegal in the context of a non commercial modification, you probably still can't legally include gmax generated models in a commercial game without licensing the program ($80K-$95K).
Case in point - someone grafted Q3Radiant support into the map compiler at one point but then someone noticed how the license for Q3Radiant, while it has no problem making maps for nonprofit purposes, disallows use of the program for making maps for commercial product without the payment of a licensing fee to id.
But hey, I could be wrong
Schnapple
#8
Here's a quote from the EULA:
Autodesk grants to you a personal, nonexclusive license to make and use the Software for the purpose of designing, developing, testing, and producing game content provided that you are the only individual or entity using said Software and provided that you do not modify or alter the Software.
It seems that using gmax to do models for anything other than a game would be a problem but as long as it is game content, I don't see any problem. (Well, I guess they could try to sue you if you do a render of a gmax character and use it for advertising.)
Anyway my point was that my script is not a crack. If you're a company doing professional 3D modelling, I'd suggest buying some 3DS MAX licenses (or whatever program you prefer) rather than trying freely downloadable stuff that wasn't meant for that use. But I'd much rather see individuals who can't easily buy a 3DS Max use gmax instead of pirating the full version (which is unfortunately far too common).
02/04/2002 (7:53 am)
I reread carefully gmax's EULA, and I haven't found anything that would prevent you to use the models you create with gmax in a commercial game.Here's a quote from the EULA:
Autodesk grants to you a personal, nonexclusive license to make and use the Software for the purpose of designing, developing, testing, and producing game content provided that you are the only individual or entity using said Software and provided that you do not modify or alter the Software.
It seems that using gmax to do models for anything other than a game would be a problem but as long as it is game content, I don't see any problem. (Well, I guess they could try to sue you if you do a render of a gmax character and use it for advertising.)
Anyway my point was that my script is not a crack. If you're a company doing professional 3D modelling, I'd suggest buying some 3DS MAX licenses (or whatever program you prefer) rather than trying freely downloadable stuff that wasn't meant for that use. But I'd much rather see individuals who can't easily buy a 3DS Max use gmax instead of pirating the full version (which is unfortunately far too common).
#9
02/04/2002 (12:20 pm)
After thinking it over a lot, I've decided to remove this file from my website. Read the thread "Gmax scripts and Tge..." in the 3D modelling forums for more informations.
#10
Better than that - it's $20 last time I checked. It is, simply put, a low poly modeler for use in games. It has its quirks but it works for what it's meant for. It's also the modelling equivalent of a Paint Shop Pro David (which used to be under $50) to PhotoShop's Goliath (now hovering into the $600 range). Really the deal with gmax was that Discreet/Autodesk got tired of seeing poor gamers pirate 3DS Max so they came up with a way to distribute a throttled down version of the product and pass the buck to the developer to the tune of $80-$95K. They claim that it makes sense to buy a site license at that price but since 3DS Max runs $3-$4K per seat so unless you're making a Shenmue or Metal Gear Solid game and have over 100 people working on it for years, it doesn't make sense.
Schnapple
02/05/2002 (7:37 am)
Sorry to be a killjoy about the gmax thing, but in the software/IT industries you have to be sure to be 100% legal and I'd hate for a fellow GG'er to get screwed over.Quote:milkshape is a shareware program priced in less than $50 dollars
Better than that - it's $20 last time I checked. It is, simply put, a low poly modeler for use in games. It has its quirks but it works for what it's meant for. It's also the modelling equivalent of a Paint Shop Pro David (which used to be under $50) to PhotoShop's Goliath (now hovering into the $600 range). Really the deal with gmax was that Discreet/Autodesk got tired of seeing poor gamers pirate 3DS Max so they came up with a way to distribute a throttled down version of the product and pass the buck to the developer to the tune of $80-$95K. They claim that it makes sense to buy a site license at that price but since 3DS Max runs $3-$4K per seat so unless you're making a Shenmue or Metal Gear Solid game and have over 100 people working on it for years, it doesn't make sense.
Schnapple
Torque Owner Marc Schefer
It's a freely downloadable version of the 3DS Max modeller. The modeller is the same as in the full version and only the rendering stuff has been removed.
What's the catch? You're not supposed to be able to export you models except in some closed formats for officialy supported games. But Discreet's developpers have not been very bright in implementing this "protection" and in 5 minutes I was able to write an export script. (Note: this not a crack, just a script written using the provided scripting language).
And I've just noticed your name right now. LOL. ;)
UPDATE: I've removed the file from my website.