Open source TGE?

#21 GPL-ing your code makes sense *IF* you create a business model around it.

For example, GarageGames COULD release the source code for free... but then charge everyone a "service fee" for consultation, access to resources, etc. I don't know how well that would fly. Though if I could pay GG a hundred bucks right now for a couple of hours of Ben Garney's time, I might consider it :)

There *ARE* some Open Source, free engines out there (besides the Quake engines). Irrlicht, Ogre3D, and CrystalSpace come to mind. I don't know of ANY commercial products that have come out using those engines yet, either. They are FAR LESS fully-featured than Torque, though in some cases they do have more whistles and bells (at least more than TGE - TSE is changing things). One of the big differences community-wise, at least from my perspective, is that the guys in charge of creating Torque, and the customers they are trying to please, have a very serious, professional bent who are interested in Shipping Product. That's a pretty different audience from the pure hobbyists (of which there are MANY here, and that's NOT a bad thing --- but too many and it does reduce the signal-to-noise ratio)

But the differences I see are that - first of all - the engine is already free to USE. If you don't care about the source code, or about releasing your game to the public, you can already grab the demo and mod it up to create whatever you want. Torque has a very capable scripting engine. If you want to "try before you buy," that's already taken care of. If you get to the point where you are very near to having a commercial release, THEN you could simply pay the cash and be good to go. So the advantage to the consumer / hobbyist is a little uncertain from my point of view.

Another advantage of Open Source is people being friendly about sharing code - but that's also happening quite a bit here. It's a bigger problem to FIND what you need in a mountain of resources (which is also a problem of Open Source).

And as Anton said - the $100 price tag is practically a token payment to keep things professional and relatively serious.

Again - maybe one day when TGE is pretty much 'finished', no longer supported, and TSE 2.0 has a release candidate, it'd be a great idea to O.S. TGE. But I can't see why they'd want to do it now.

EDIT: I also don't see how TGE compares unfavorably with Quake 3, REALLY. But there are guys who know both engines better than me. I just look at Illumina screenshots and the Warzone demo and think, "Crap, they can't do terrain like this in Q3, can they?"

#22 Do you know what could be a cool solution for the open source people? A community funded scholarship for the TGE to people who have the ability and the determination but just not the money. I know that I would gladly pay $100 for someone who really deserved to have the TGE but couldn't afford it. I would say that they needed to have something considerable to show with the TGE Demo and scripting before I would buy a license for them, but if they did and showed that they were really going somewhere with it, I would be happy to donate $100 for them. Hell, I'd put out the money for TSE if someone could prove that they deserved it. I wouldn't be suprised to find out that there are many in this community who would do the same. I mean, come on, for most adults, $100 is not that big of a deal. That's a month of going to the movies and getting popcorn an pop for me. I would give that up to help someone else realise their dream in a heartbeat. 10 people donating together means each only have to donate $10. Something to think about. We would be the coolest community on the planet if we did something like this. Yeah, yeah, I know, we already are the coolest. :P But we would be cooler.

#23 Good idea Anton, I'd gladly be a part of that..

B--

#24 I consider Torque to be an asset and not just a tool, so I don't favor open-sourcing it.

#25 People think that GPL is so amazing. Well, to an extent it is -- but in the 3D game engine arena it's not as beneficial as a low entry price. People who purchase the TGE have at least $100 to get into the game. So, that right there limits who will actually take the plunge. Yeah there have been unhappy customers who figure they've wasted their money. But overall, people who pay for it are satisfied they did. As for cranking out games, so maybe it doesn't happen all that often, but people learn a hell of a lot in the process. They learn what a real challenge making a game is -- even a simple one. I've gotten way more out of this engine than my $100 original investment.

If it were free, anyone with the next idea about an MMORPG or MMORTS (and we know how many there are already) would be posting their ideas and begging for community support (for free as well). Then bitching when they don't get a team of 5 devs, 10 artists, and a QA staff (all for free, too). So, yes, the signal to noise ratio would become unbearable for those of us who like it the way it is.

We get a big enough crowd as it goes already. The /. crowd breaks down like this:

97% - Bitchers/whiners/I-can-do-better-ers
2% - Capable, but unmotivated
1% - Actual interested parties who might do something -- but probably won't

I read the /. forums and they aren't exactly all l33t hax0rz. Most of them just like to complain to complain, and that would do us no good. GPL-ing something doesn't instantly make it a winner. OpenTNL is open source and how many people are cranking on that? So, why would TGE go that route? It's a game engine that requires C++ coding skills. Yeah, you can do a lot with just the compiled code and a script editor, but it doesn't compare to cracking open the source and rewriting major parts of the engine. I hate to sound like a wet rag, but modding the engine through script isn't going to make a full-fledged title other than an FPS. If you want the engine to be more than that you're going to have to edit some C++.

Plus, what would happen when we have 10-15 different flavors of TGE. Each one with their own feature set -- things supported and things not. You'll have to pick which one to develop with and GG isn't going to support any of them (not that they provide support to indie licensees anyways ). It'll become chaos in my opinion, not paradise. And you'll end up killing GG in the end. Does that sound like a bright future?

It sure as hell doesn't to me.

- Brett

#26 @Stephen : I think you hit the nail on the head there with your comment. The Quake 3 engine has been milked dry for all its worth financially and the cow has been put out the pasture to enjoy its last few days under the sun.

#27 "Enough people steal the engine on a regular basis (by piracy) that is lost profit"

Is this really legitimate lost profit though? I mean... none of these people would dare to lisense a full game, and I doubt many even do much with the engine at all. I believe the 100 dollars helps the buyer to feel commited to their project.

#28 @Jonathan

It also helps Garage Games to feel commited to the project and their customers (from one who's open source a commericial product).

#29 Exactly. What I think though is that anyone who is too cheap to buy Torque and is willing to steal it and doesn't end up buying it so that he can lisence something (phew... what a qualifier) is probably never going to get any use out of the engine anyway. Thats one of the amusing things about this... you have to actually lisence the engine in order to get much use out of it at all, be that documentation, the community, or anything else. People who steal it are less likely to know what they are doing with it, less capable of finding good help on using the engine, and more than likely less motivated to actually use the engine. In other words... I believe its not very likely that piracy is really a big loss for GG. Do bring up some other points if I'm missing something though.