New guy, new game idea
by Brodycat · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 07/19/2005 (1:21 pm) · 32 replies
Heya, Ken here. Big Tribes 2 player, looking into buying the TGE. I'm salivating over the possibilities.
Here's my idea. I had inklings for years of making a melee-based FPS. I've gone through the past threads and see that some people have already tried a few of those areas. So anyway, here's the specifics I wanted to work on:
1. Team-based combat, like Tribes. Most matches would be deathmatch, but quite a few objective-based missions could be run. The main issue is animation speed when you have many players close to you. How many players can fit into a small, bloody space?
2. I desperately want the missions to mean something for your team/country/empire other than a win. For this reason, I want to try and have a main/master server that keeps a master map that people can look at, maybe even on a website if people simply want to check up on the progress. Each win for a team means their "country" gains ground. On the main map, if the contested area is in a certain type of terrain, that is the next game a server can run. Hopefully the map will be big and varied enough to have multiple types of areas, even civilized ones such as medeival urban areas or the insides of castles. Of course, a separate storyline can be kept, perhaps by others on online forums or such. I just don't want it to get in the way of people who don't like exposition. We need just enough exposition to explain the body types, armor, and gameplay, though I surely don't mind other people taking the storyline as deep as they want to go.
3. I want a good amount of individualization without getting into the time-consuming BS of RPGs like having to collect gold to pay for a sword. Boring! (Sorry, they're just not my thing anymore.) Being in more combats means your character gets more power or skill automatically, and if you die you lose it all (not counting the experience the *player* gets from getting used to the controls.) This means the players should rightfully fear character death. I don't want players to obsess over what points go where. Yes, the character should be chosen from an initial body template; mixing that with armor and weapon types should make for many combinations to surprise your enemies with. However, I do not want any part of extraneous roleplaying; all the aspects of powering up and armor/weapon selection should enhance the combat gameplay, not simply be filler for a larger game.
4. There would be at least three countries to fight for, all with different skins, and maybe even weapon and armor types. There might be a southern plains people that are tall and can run fast, and then a swamp people that have pale skin and can sneak very well. These races may or may not be fantastical; I'm not ruling out making it either fantasy or pseudo-historical fiction. However, I am against magic, though I wouldn't mind seeing a dragon pop up now and then...not on anyone's side, just for eye candy.
5. Of course, the melee FPS combat system would be the biggest hurdle. How to make combat varied enough, yet fun to play and intuitive?
So, what do you think?
Here's my idea. I had inklings for years of making a melee-based FPS. I've gone through the past threads and see that some people have already tried a few of those areas. So anyway, here's the specifics I wanted to work on:
1. Team-based combat, like Tribes. Most matches would be deathmatch, but quite a few objective-based missions could be run. The main issue is animation speed when you have many players close to you. How many players can fit into a small, bloody space?
2. I desperately want the missions to mean something for your team/country/empire other than a win. For this reason, I want to try and have a main/master server that keeps a master map that people can look at, maybe even on a website if people simply want to check up on the progress. Each win for a team means their "country" gains ground. On the main map, if the contested area is in a certain type of terrain, that is the next game a server can run. Hopefully the map will be big and varied enough to have multiple types of areas, even civilized ones such as medeival urban areas or the insides of castles. Of course, a separate storyline can be kept, perhaps by others on online forums or such. I just don't want it to get in the way of people who don't like exposition. We need just enough exposition to explain the body types, armor, and gameplay, though I surely don't mind other people taking the storyline as deep as they want to go.
3. I want a good amount of individualization without getting into the time-consuming BS of RPGs like having to collect gold to pay for a sword. Boring! (Sorry, they're just not my thing anymore.) Being in more combats means your character gets more power or skill automatically, and if you die you lose it all (not counting the experience the *player* gets from getting used to the controls.) This means the players should rightfully fear character death. I don't want players to obsess over what points go where. Yes, the character should be chosen from an initial body template; mixing that with armor and weapon types should make for many combinations to surprise your enemies with. However, I do not want any part of extraneous roleplaying; all the aspects of powering up and armor/weapon selection should enhance the combat gameplay, not simply be filler for a larger game.
4. There would be at least three countries to fight for, all with different skins, and maybe even weapon and armor types. There might be a southern plains people that are tall and can run fast, and then a swamp people that have pale skin and can sneak very well. These races may or may not be fantastical; I'm not ruling out making it either fantasy or pseudo-historical fiction. However, I am against magic, though I wouldn't mind seeing a dragon pop up now and then...not on anyone's side, just for eye candy.
5. Of course, the melee FPS combat system would be the biggest hurdle. How to make combat varied enough, yet fun to play and intuitive?
So, what do you think?
About the author
#2
Here's what Im thinking:
w, a, s, d = movement
q= punch
e= kick
then 3 inputs from the movement keys (up, down, right, left):
1st input = style of movement (we have 3 schools: brawling, martial arts, wrestling/submissions)
2nd + 3rd inputs= combo of type of movement type (we have damage, stun, block, counter, drop, disarm, evade, and launch)
Sooooo...if you wanted to get a brawling kick that did damage you'd hit: e + (up) + (right) + (down)
or for a martial arts punch: q + (right) + (down) + (down)
Im still toying with it in my mind. Im wondering if I ought to incorporate high middle and low into the equasion or if that's just to terribly complicated. If you split someone up into 9 hitboxes would you really be able to predict which one to hit or defend?
Alabama is where its at! :)
Alfred Norris
www.conflictomega.com
08/02/2005 (5:22 pm)
Hey! Im in Montgomery...and Im building an MMO with a heavy melee engine to it myself.Here's what Im thinking:
w, a, s, d = movement
q= punch
e= kick
then 3 inputs from the movement keys (up, down, right, left):
1st input = style of movement (we have 3 schools: brawling, martial arts, wrestling/submissions)
2nd + 3rd inputs= combo of type of movement type (we have damage, stun, block, counter, drop, disarm, evade, and launch)
Sooooo...if you wanted to get a brawling kick that did damage you'd hit: e + (up) + (right) + (down)
or for a martial arts punch: q + (right) + (down) + (down)
Im still toying with it in my mind. Im wondering if I ought to incorporate high middle and low into the equasion or if that's just to terribly complicated. If you split someone up into 9 hitboxes would you really be able to predict which one to hit or defend?
Alabama is where its at! :)
Alfred Norris
www.conflictomega.com
#3
AN, I am still a bit confused about your combat/movement interface. I see movement, punch and kick, and then...3 more inputs? The button combos necessary for an action seem overwhelming. Still, though, I looked at your link (assuming that is what you are talking about) and it looks cool!
I'll be buying TGE tonight, so I hope to toy with it a bit and have a phpBB board up soon.
08/03/2005 (10:39 am)
Indeed, there's more designers in Alabama than I thought!AN, I am still a bit confused about your combat/movement interface. I see movement, punch and kick, and then...3 more inputs? The button combos necessary for an action seem overwhelming. Still, though, I looked at your link (assuming that is what you are talking about) and it looks cool!
I'll be buying TGE tonight, so I hope to toy with it a bit and have a phpBB board up soon.
#4
Let me see if I can explain things a little better.
I wanted to make the system easy on the user so assuming that you would be moving your player with the WASD keys, q and e were the closest.
youd hit q/e to decide on kick or punch
then youd hit a fast combo of UP + DOWN + RIGHT to finish the combo.
I can hit 3 arrow keys in less than a second, so I thought it would be a decent way to do it.
One of my team members suggested that instead of q/e I use mouse button1 and mouse button2...so that the player could still mouselook while be was meleeing....although if rightclick is already mouselook...that might be kind of strange to program (rightclick...wait 20 miliseconds...if no arrowkey then mouselook)
Really all this is making me think I should just go with a hotbar of icons to click like Shadowbane or EQ spells. We're going to have a hotbar anyway....
This is fun and frustrating at the same time! If we can be of any help with Torque script feel free to email me.
08/03/2005 (10:46 am)
Thanks! Glad you like the project.Let me see if I can explain things a little better.
I wanted to make the system easy on the user so assuming that you would be moving your player with the WASD keys, q and e were the closest.
youd hit q/e to decide on kick or punch
then youd hit a fast combo of UP + DOWN + RIGHT to finish the combo.
I can hit 3 arrow keys in less than a second, so I thought it would be a decent way to do it.
One of my team members suggested that instead of q/e I use mouse button1 and mouse button2...so that the player could still mouselook while be was meleeing....although if rightclick is already mouselook...that might be kind of strange to program (rightclick...wait 20 miliseconds...if no arrowkey then mouselook)
Really all this is making me think I should just go with a hotbar of icons to click like Shadowbane or EQ spells. We're going to have a hotbar anyway....
This is fun and frustrating at the same time! If we can be of any help with Torque script feel free to email me.
#5
Here's the setup for the melee FPS I will be working on, for comparison: directional keys for move and strafe, mouse look, LMB stab, RMB slash, other keyboard buttons nearby for block, jump, crouch, run/dash, falling prone, and a toggle between melee/ranged for a weapon (for example, an axe can be swung or thrown). Of course, where the mouse is looking will determine the location of the hit. I'd also keep damage "under the hood" based upon weapon type, armor type, and damage type (a sword would do more damage piercing than slashing to a guy in plate armor, but that same sword would do more damage slashing than piercing to an unarmored person).
Yes, yes, you can be plenty of help to me in the script (You too, Cybore!). However, I just bought Torque last night, so I'm not even in a position yet to know what help I need. I'll be playing with it next week to see where to start. Thanks!
08/04/2005 (9:01 am)
Oh, I have a pretty firm opinion on the ergonomics of game interfaces (mechincal engineer and an armchair psychologist), but I won't say much about the interface until I play it a bit. Any action that takes more than one button push (if in FPS mode) seems difficult, but hey, I'm open minded. One thing I might say is to make the pushing of the punch or kick key last in the combo. That way, players would have a chance to prepare and possibly think out their moves, or even store the first few button pushes, for later use. Here's the setup for the melee FPS I will be working on, for comparison: directional keys for move and strafe, mouse look, LMB stab, RMB slash, other keyboard buttons nearby for block, jump, crouch, run/dash, falling prone, and a toggle between melee/ranged for a weapon (for example, an axe can be swung or thrown). Of course, where the mouse is looking will determine the location of the hit. I'd also keep damage "under the hood" based upon weapon type, armor type, and damage type (a sword would do more damage piercing than slashing to a guy in plate armor, but that same sword would do more damage slashing than piercing to an unarmored person).
Yes, yes, you can be plenty of help to me in the script (You too, Cybore!). However, I just bought Torque last night, so I'm not even in a position yet to know what help I need. I'll be playing with it next week to see where to start. Thanks!
#6
BTW when you say directional keys...you do mean WASD and not the arrow keys, right? If you used arrow keys AND a mouselook youd have no other keys in proximity to push.
Draw us out a diagram please :)
08/04/2005 (9:12 am)
Sounds good...but Im wondering how you will map all those keys and keep it easy to use!BTW when you say directional keys...you do mean WASD and not the arrow keys, right? If you used arrow keys AND a mouselook youd have no other keys in proximity to push.
Draw us out a diagram please :)
#7
About directional controls: I am thinking of letters for controls, yes. Arrow keys are to isolated! But I'm probably not going to do WASD or even Tribes 2's ESDF. Because of the arrangement of the hand, I've noticed that the pinky and the thumb are about the only fingers that can be used without disruption of movement. Therefore, I've decided to place the movement keys at RDFG, or maybe even farther to the right! This way, many important keys will be available to the two free fingers.
Because both the pinky and thumb sit lower than the other three fingers, most of the buttons in those areas will be lower. A and S are within easy pinky reach, with X and Z a bit more difficult to get to. I will probably not use Q or W unless they are buttons to be used outside of the heat of combat, such as looking at a map. Likewise, the thumb can reach B, N, and the space bar.
Some ideas I have had for button placement:
A= run/dash
S= crouch
Z = prone
space = jump
N = block
P (or some other out-of-the-way button)= overhead map
The E, T, and H in this layout are easy to reach, and should be used as actions that would cause slight hiccups to combat readiness, both realistically and within the game:
E = weapon cycling
T = toggle between melee/ranged for readied weapon
08/04/2005 (12:32 pm)
Well, from playing Tribes, I've discovered that having many assigned buttons is hard at first, but allows for greater complexity in the long run. Tribes is considered a game that allows for greater playability for experts: that is, there's not a ceiling that limits a skilled player from progressing any farther. It's a feature in tribes I greatly admire.About directional controls: I am thinking of letters for controls, yes. Arrow keys are to isolated! But I'm probably not going to do WASD or even Tribes 2's ESDF. Because of the arrangement of the hand, I've noticed that the pinky and the thumb are about the only fingers that can be used without disruption of movement. Therefore, I've decided to place the movement keys at RDFG, or maybe even farther to the right! This way, many important keys will be available to the two free fingers.
Because both the pinky and thumb sit lower than the other three fingers, most of the buttons in those areas will be lower. A and S are within easy pinky reach, with X and Z a bit more difficult to get to. I will probably not use Q or W unless they are buttons to be used outside of the heat of combat, such as looking at a map. Likewise, the thumb can reach B, N, and the space bar.
Some ideas I have had for button placement:
A= run/dash
S= crouch
Z = prone
space = jump
N = block
P (or some other out-of-the-way button)= overhead map
The E, T, and H in this layout are easy to reach, and should be used as actions that would cause slight hiccups to combat readiness, both realistically and within the game:
E = weapon cycling
T = toggle between melee/ranged for readied weapon
#8
So, um, never mind. :P
08/04/2005 (12:37 pm)
Oh, wait..I was just thinking of your 3-button combat system, and I realized my suggestion about it wouldn't work. If you are using your directional controls for movement, then hitting them for fighting style, type of attack, etc wouldn't work. I guess the punch and kick buttons are combat action activations, right? Kind of like, "Hello, keyboard, stop WASD movement and prepare for fight combo". ISo, um, never mind. :P
#9
But that raises another question...what buttons are YOU using for combinations?
With the RDFG system above...first of all Id change the melee toggle to the scroll wheel click.
Also the weapon cycle can be on the scroll wheel...so thats 2 more buttons.
assuming run, crouch and walk are in A,S and Z respectively...would you use mouse click right = punch + E/T/W/H/Q for the combo buttons?
Im befuddled but Ive got to make this work.
08/04/2005 (1:06 pm)
Actually im not using the arrow keys...I thought you were.But that raises another question...what buttons are YOU using for combinations?
With the RDFG system above...first of all Id change the melee toggle to the scroll wheel click.
Also the weapon cycle can be on the scroll wheel...so thats 2 more buttons.
assuming run, crouch and walk are in A,S and Z respectively...would you use mouse click right = punch + E/T/W/H/Q for the combo buttons?
Im befuddled but Ive got to make this work.
#10
I like the idea for using the scroll wheel, though I would assign the function to other buttons just in case someone is using an old mouse.
If you're talking about my system, I probably won't have different fighting styles. The different types of effects you listed in your first post will happen depending on circumstance. For example, "damage" would be determined normally, "stun" would happen if the relative velocity between weapon and hit area were greater than a certain speed, perhaps resulting in knockback animations of varying length. Block would simply be a button to push, but while blocking you cannot use most of your attacks. Not so sure about disarming...perhaps damage to the hand or arm? Anyway, my system is in its infancy.
If you are talking about your system, wanting to use the other buttons for different moves is doable. Hmmmm....I wonder if LMB and RMB could be used for punch and kick, and scroll wheel could choose your fighting style? And then push a button to decide type of attack, then LMB and RMB for punch or kick...wow, the ways of setting it up are endless...
08/04/2005 (2:09 pm)
Oh! I'm sorry, I was describing my system, not a suggestion for your system. Though if you want to use it for your system, that is fine too!I like the idea for using the scroll wheel, though I would assign the function to other buttons just in case someone is using an old mouse.
If you're talking about my system, I probably won't have different fighting styles. The different types of effects you listed in your first post will happen depending on circumstance. For example, "damage" would be determined normally, "stun" would happen if the relative velocity between weapon and hit area were greater than a certain speed, perhaps resulting in knockback animations of varying length. Block would simply be a button to push, but while blocking you cannot use most of your attacks. Not so sure about disarming...perhaps damage to the hand or arm? Anyway, my system is in its infancy.
If you are talking about your system, wanting to use the other buttons for different moves is doable. Hmmmm....I wonder if LMB and RMB could be used for punch and kick, and scroll wheel could choose your fighting style? And then push a button to decide type of attack, then LMB and RMB for punch or kick...wow, the ways of setting it up are endless...
#11
Basically, (Though I don't know anything... lol) I just suggest you keep a close eye on any awkwardness that may arise. Even a few awkward bits can really kill the fun in a game like that.
08/05/2005 (5:38 am)
I'm not entirely sure all forms of melee are suited for a first-person game. In FPS games, the beauty of the design is that you're always "looking down the barrel of a gun". In melee, I don't know about you, but I like to see where my characters body is in relation to the opponent. (Like in the Jedi Knight games, my personal favorite example of melee combat.) The exception to that rule is Morrowind, but I think thats more an issue of the field of vision and where exactly the camera is situated.Basically, (Though I don't know anything... lol) I just suggest you keep a close eye on any awkwardness that may arise. Even a few awkward bits can really kill the fun in a game like that.
#12
One of the many things I learned while playing Shadowbane (the most awesome MMO ever no matter what anyone says its FACT) ...was that hard-core gamers can click icons in miliseconds.
So Ill use some keyboard keys for run, crouch, prone, movement...perhaps another for toggling melee weapons vs hand to hand, throwing vs hand-held melee weaps...and do the rest with icons in a hotbar.
If I could convince everyone to just buy an X box controller for their pc...things might change :)
08/05/2005 (6:03 am)
Well Ive basically decided that Im going to use icons in a hotbar for the different styles.One of the many things I learned while playing Shadowbane (the most awesome MMO ever no matter what anyone says its FACT) ...was that hard-core gamers can click icons in miliseconds.
So Ill use some keyboard keys for run, crouch, prone, movement...perhaps another for toggling melee weapons vs hand to hand, throwing vs hand-held melee weaps...and do the rest with icons in a hotbar.
If I could convince everyone to just buy an X box controller for their pc...things might change :)
#13
08/05/2005 (6:25 am)
Might not be so hard to convince them... Isn't the 360's controller going to be USB or something? I had heard you will be able to use it on the PC as well. (I may be mistaken.)
#14
I didnt know that the 360 controller was going to be USB. I hope thats true. Then it wouldnt be such a hard sell to get people to just hook it up and use it for melee fighting.
Oh well...guess thats a silver lining to our lengthy development track ;)
08/05/2005 (6:32 am)
They already exist in USB format, but getting people to buy them is the thing.I didnt know that the 360 controller was going to be USB. I hope thats true. Then it wouldnt be such a hard sell to get people to just hook it up and use it for melee fighting.
Oh well...guess thats a silver lining to our lengthy development track ;)
#15
Sorry if I tossed out some misinformation there.
08/05/2005 (6:36 am)
Hmm, maybe I heard wrong. Could be I was just reading that they were available in USB format. (Sometimes I get mixed up... I can't keep up with the times anymore.) lolSorry if I tossed out some misinformation there.
#16
So yes, I'm doing what I can to make it canny.
Oh, and if the 360 has USB controllers...genius.
08/05/2005 (8:04 am)
Dustin: warnings against awkwardness are a good point, thank you. Once again, I call upon my Tribes experience, where a shocklance to the back is a one-hit kill. If I am a stationary defender and cloakers (invisible players who like to carry shocklances) are about, I constantly have to be looking all around be, back and forth. Short of a slight disorientation (which realistically would happen if you jerked your head to and fro), there's no problem with gameplay. I also use sound; you can hear a faint sound as a cloaker approaches. In this sense, I want to make it still first person. Yes, you must look around, but for one, there will be no magic/technology no make cloakers. You'll also hear footsteps as well as battle noises. In this way, I wish to make the game use as many senses as possible. Also, I am sure players will find ways to protect their flanks; form up in rows, have people watch their back, have archers stationed nearby. Not to mention I will be using a voice command menu like most FPS's, so people can shout "Behind you!" or something similar.So yes, I'm doing what I can to make it canny.
Oh, and if the 360 has USB controllers...genius.
#17
I'll have to look up that Xbox thing... I think I may have had a crossed wire somewhere. lol
08/05/2005 (8:14 am)
Heh, the warning mainly comes from my experience with stuff like UT:GotY, where you could use the swords or chainsaws. They were fun and all, but a tad awkward to use. Also, the bots in it would become confused and cluster together if they were all using swords. (A problem you may never see, as it's a different engine and all.) In a lot of ways, I agree with the notion of using first-person, as it does add a lot of immersion. Keeps the adrenaline pumping when you can't watch your own back.I'll have to look up that Xbox thing... I think I may have had a crossed wire somewhere. lol
#18
Here's some info on the controller... It says "Wireless won't be your only option, by the way, as you'll be able to plug your controller into your Xbox 360 via a USB cable, which will not only function as a standard wired connection, but also trickle-charge your controller's batteries."
I guess that doesn't necessarily mean that it will be able to interact with PC's, but the fact that it has a USB plug does make it sound LIKELY. Time will tell I guess.
PS:Sorry to hi-jack the thread with that, I just wanted to make sure I didn't spread some odd rumor.
08/05/2005 (8:23 am)
hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-x-1970-x-x-xHere's some info on the controller... It says "Wireless won't be your only option, by the way, as you'll be able to plug your controller into your Xbox 360 via a USB cable, which will not only function as a standard wired connection, but also trickle-charge your controller's batteries."
I guess that doesn't necessarily mean that it will be able to interact with PC's, but the fact that it has a USB plug does make it sound LIKELY. Time will tell I guess.
PS:Sorry to hi-jack the thread with that, I just wanted to make sure I didn't spread some odd rumor.
#20
EDIT: Instead of making myself look like a jerk by criticizing, (I HATE critics.) let me pose a question for you: How do you want your melee system to work? Will it be random swings with a button press? Or will they somehow be directed/guided? In Morrowind there were 3 swing types, a chop, a stab and a slash to the side. Are you considering a similar style?
08/05/2005 (10:11 am)
Well, the sword seemed a little slapped together to me. The chainsaw wasn't all that bad though. (Particularly the headshot on the secondary attack.) My problem with the sword was that there was little in the way of control for your swings. You just sort of auto-hacked away. I VERY much prefer the Jedi Knight system, though that is more 3rd person oriented. (They have a first-person mode for sabers, but it's a bit awkward itself.)EDIT: Instead of making myself look like a jerk by criticizing, (I HATE critics.) let me pose a question for you: How do you want your melee system to work? Will it be random swings with a button press? Or will they somehow be directed/guided? In Morrowind there were 3 swing types, a chop, a stab and a slash to the side. Are you considering a similar style?
Torque Owner Brian -Cybore- Smith
Hostile Ai
*Edit*
Awesome....I just seen where your from. I'm from Dothan, the other end of the state.