More realistic waters edge
by Ian Winter · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 07/19/2005 (4:59 am) · 85 replies
One of the things I've noticed about a lot of modern games, which also goes for TSE in it's current state is they have these gorgeous terrains and gorgeous water but there's no decent transition between the waters edge and the land itself. Some games do have the gentle waves as the water laps onto the shore for example in Farcry and in Settlers V however I'm wondering how hard it would be to do something like this in TSE? I'm guessing it's something that needs to be done at code level and I'm imagining it's a lot of work but I'd like some reassurance of that because if there is a fairly easy way of doing it I think it'd go a long way to improving the feel of certain scenes in the game. Does anyone have any idea what is involved in doing something like this and how hard it is if it's even feasible at all?
Thanks in advance!
Thanks in advance!
#62
01/22/2006 (3:07 pm)
By 'underwater visibility' do you mean the deeper you go, the less distance up/down/sideways you can see?
#63
01/22/2006 (3:25 pm)
Yes, and also any screen effects. Not sure what approach to go with the visibility though. Fog could work, but I'd like to try to avoid that. I'll see how things look when I get there. 
#64
01/22/2006 (3:29 pm)
Nice work Jacob!
#65
A nice, pretty, calm beach.
01/22/2006 (3:35 pm)
So my post above isn't so bland.. Heres some eye-candy to help spice it. ;) A nice, pretty, calm beach.
#66
01/22/2006 (3:37 pm)
Broken image links =O
#67
Just checked, they work in firefox for me after a while.. Not showing in IE.. imageshack seems to be runnin crappy. bummer. I'll fix that..
All better.
01/22/2006 (3:39 pm)
No, they work.. Just loaded the page, popped right up.. Imageshack may be runnin dodgy.Just checked, they work in firefox for me after a while.. Not showing in IE.. imageshack seems to be runnin crappy. bummer. I'll fix that..
All better.
#68
01/22/2006 (4:02 pm)
Looks great :D 
#69
01/22/2006 (6:46 pm)
Looks awesome, now if you can take care of that jaged shoreline where the waters meets the sand it will possibly surpass farcry :) sure its close though already, nice work!
#70
01/22/2006 (7:02 pm)
Only way I can think of that even being possible is to cover it up with a shoreline effect. And I haven't quite figured that part out yet. We'll see what happens. If I can't come up with something, oh well. Least I will have made it as far as I will.
#71
01/23/2006 (12:15 am)
BEAUTIFUL work! This looks so damn nice. :) 
#72
I have two thoughts on underwater visbility (range). The first is to simply use a bluish-gray fog of medium density, at a distance roughly 40' from camera...maybe thin at the edge closest to the player, and thicker as it goes. Not sure how this would affect visibility from above the water...but it could actually work well for that, also...allowing the player to look down into the murky depths of Davey Jones's locker. *arrrg* (ok, enough of that, already!) Not to mention, it would reasonably accurately represent looking up to the surface from under the water. The only effect you'd loose is the "sun rays" coming down through the water. Another thought is to use caustics., but I don't know enough about that to know if that's even a viable solution or not.
As for the shoreline....All I can really come up with is some sort of particle effect, such as a light foam to cover up the connecting edge as the waves roll in...but that'd kill performance, and wouldn't look natural. I think, ultimately, it might come down to modifying how the water itself is drawn along a shoreline. Personally, the way things are looking so far, I could honestly live with it the way it is. The improvments you've already made easily detract from the edges.
I almost forgot I had these posted on the net... They're about a year old, and unless you have a highspeed connection or a lot of time on your hands, be warned....there are no thumbnails! xorrin.kaydelon.com/water/
Here's a couple pics inspired from your "calm water beach" shots... A little too much reflection of the sun in the first two (taken just before sunset) than I wanted for the effect, but might help. The 2nd two, you can see more into the bottom of the water hear the shore. Specifically, the last one shows lighter and darker "patches"...darker is shallower patches of coral agains the lighter deeper patches of sand...also a few grass patches can be seen. Normally, darker = deeper, but the in this particular case, the deepest part of the water is less than 4' untill you reach the reef wall (about 50-57 yards from shore, where it drops suddenly to 60' (a reef "cliff"))
01/23/2006 (6:34 am)
Wow. And, umm...WOW!!! :) I really can't wait to start playing with this, now! The game I'm working on calls for a sizable number of small islands in one particular area. This is going to be incredible!I have two thoughts on underwater visbility (range). The first is to simply use a bluish-gray fog of medium density, at a distance roughly 40' from camera...maybe thin at the edge closest to the player, and thicker as it goes. Not sure how this would affect visibility from above the water...but it could actually work well for that, also...allowing the player to look down into the murky depths of Davey Jones's locker. *arrrg* (ok, enough of that, already!) Not to mention, it would reasonably accurately represent looking up to the surface from under the water. The only effect you'd loose is the "sun rays" coming down through the water. Another thought is to use caustics., but I don't know enough about that to know if that's even a viable solution or not.
As for the shoreline....All I can really come up with is some sort of particle effect, such as a light foam to cover up the connecting edge as the waves roll in...but that'd kill performance, and wouldn't look natural. I think, ultimately, it might come down to modifying how the water itself is drawn along a shoreline. Personally, the way things are looking so far, I could honestly live with it the way it is. The improvments you've already made easily detract from the edges.
I almost forgot I had these posted on the net... They're about a year old, and unless you have a highspeed connection or a lot of time on your hands, be warned....there are no thumbnails! xorrin.kaydelon.com/water/
Here's a couple pics inspired from your "calm water beach" shots... A little too much reflection of the sun in the first two (taken just before sunset) than I wanted for the effect, but might help. The 2nd two, you can see more into the bottom of the water hear the shore. Specifically, the last one shows lighter and darker "patches"...darker is shallower patches of coral agains the lighter deeper patches of sand...also a few grass patches can be seen. Normally, darker = deeper, but the in this particular case, the deepest part of the water is less than 4' untill you reach the reef wall (about 50-57 yards from shore, where it drops suddenly to 60' (a reef "cliff"))
#73
along the edge overlapping the now clear waters edge.
probably take some tweaking but from staring at farcry for awhile it seems like thats how they handled it.
they also apply a foam texture on the water side of the edge and then the sprite texture overlaps into the sand side of the waters edge. There is definately an edge in farcry its just masked over very well.
anyway just a thought :).
01/23/2006 (7:49 am)
In farcry it appeared to be a translucent sprite effect placed at the edge of the water, you probably have to alpha out(make very clear at the waters edge) and place the foam sprite effectalong the edge overlapping the now clear waters edge.
probably take some tweaking but from staring at farcry for awhile it seems like thats how they handled it.
they also apply a foam texture on the water side of the edge and then the sprite texture overlaps into the sand side of the waters edge. There is definately an edge in farcry its just masked over very well.
anyway just a thought :).
#74
Now, the only problem there is.. I'm not sure how correct it is. Which is also where I can use your help. If you can manage to do this for me, it would be a great help. What I need to see is the change of color along the surface from underwater. That is, if it steadily becomes a dark blue as you lower and if the areas you view at an angle, i.e. not directly overhead, are darker then what is directly over you, viewed at a vertical angle.
For visability, the only remaining problem is when your view goes outside the terrain. Youy still see the greyish fog. However if you were to correct this by making a block-off on your maps, this would be easily fixed as well. I'll see what I can do about that.
And thanks again for your help!
Oops, forgot about your link. Gonna have to look at that later tonight, may have exactly what I just asked for. ;)
01/23/2006 (12:26 pm)
Well, Xorrin, I've actually gotten quite a bit thought up for visability, and it involves no fog. Once again, this comes down to one of my most-used sayings. "The best approach to a real situation is a real solution." Underwater, there is no fog. So why make fog? Instead, do what is really done in real life. The reason the water surface is darker underneath is the exact same reason as the water floor is blue. So, do the exact same process. Which I have already done, it was very easy indeed.Now, the only problem there is.. I'm not sure how correct it is. Which is also where I can use your help. If you can manage to do this for me, it would be a great help. What I need to see is the change of color along the surface from underwater. That is, if it steadily becomes a dark blue as you lower and if the areas you view at an angle, i.e. not directly overhead, are darker then what is directly over you, viewed at a vertical angle.
For visability, the only remaining problem is when your view goes outside the terrain. Youy still see the greyish fog. However if you were to correct this by making a block-off on your maps, this would be easily fixed as well. I'll see what I can do about that.
And thanks again for your help!
Oops, forgot about your link. Gonna have to look at that later tonight, may have exactly what I just asked for. ;)
#75
Might take a few days to get the right water conditions here....during the "winter", we get an upswelling of colder water from the Marianas Trench, which makes for some rough waves in the areas that usually have the best visibility (50-100 feet). I'd like to do this experiment under "ideal" conditions to get more of a true real-world color/light degredation. I can't use the harbor right now becaus of some 2,000 Marines conducting exercises there for the next couple weeks. :(
01/26/2006 (3:00 am)
I have a good experiement for you... I'll generate a color bar slate (like the color bars you used to see on TV at night when the stations went off the air). Then, I'll take it down to 100 or so feet, photoographing it every 5 feet with only natural lighting. I'll do that at a fixed distance going down, then at various ranges when we come back up. Think that'll give ya what you need?Might take a few days to get the right water conditions here....during the "winter", we get an upswelling of colder water from the Marianas Trench, which makes for some rough waves in the areas that usually have the best visibility (50-100 feet). I'd like to do this experiment under "ideal" conditions to get more of a true real-world color/light degredation. I can't use the harbor right now becaus of some 2,000 Marines conducting exercises there for the next couple weeks. :(
#76
-Jase
01/26/2006 (8:11 am)
O_O Wow! Thats some awsome stuff, right there! Keep on rockin', Jacob!-Jase
#77
01/26/2006 (2:34 pm)
Ya Xorrin, sounds great! Few days is no problem. I got plenty of time on this, certainly no push. Thanks!
#78
And now since I've returned.. Back to work!
01/28/2006 (12:56 pm)
Well, just got back today from signin into the Navy. Took my oath today, signed my contracts, I'm all set to leave sometime in August. Big step to take for my life! :)And now since I've returned.. Back to work!
#79
Good luck!
-Jase
01/28/2006 (5:50 pm)
I've been mulling over the idea of signing up for the navy, as well. Haven't made a definite decision, but thats cool that you took that step. I wish you lots of luck with the navy, and can't wait to see how your water improvements turn out. The artist of the project I'm working on is super excited ever since I showed him some of your screenshots.Good luck!
-Jase
#80
Make sure you have a job lined up, your recruiter will have more info on this, without a job you leave yourself open to being a mess cook, yeoman (secretary) or boatswainsmate (paint chipper extraordinaire). With your skills you probably tested well on the asvab and should be able to choose your path before entering. I would choose an advanced electronics job if you dont want to spend the next four years chipping paint and waxing floors (although you will chip paint and wax floors no matter what job you have, just not nearly as much with an electronics or weapons job). I spent six years in the USN and learned how to clean urinals and polish brass well (along with developing a strong electronics troubleshooting background, I was a data systems tech 1990-96... not sure if the rate still exists or got rolled into the electronics tech rate). Many times I wished I had joined the Air Force, esp after extended stays on several AF bases, although it is more difficult to make rank in the AF.
Any enlisted job in the Navy is hard, both physically and emotionally and nobody can really tell you how it is until you experience it. You will be in complete awe at some of the amazing things that get done for this country at ALL hours of the day and night, I was and still cant believe some of the stuff I did (voluntarily or not).
Definitely take advantage of ALL educational opportunities that present themselves including the GI bill. Also, take every chance you can to go on cruises overseas (except the persian gulf, you wont step on land for months). West coast fleet has more fun, but east coast does Med and south american cruises, both are awesome if you get to port often.
Good luck with it! It will be the experience of your life!
BTW, Ive been following this topic... Great work!
01/31/2006 (4:01 pm)
Jacob:Make sure you have a job lined up, your recruiter will have more info on this, without a job you leave yourself open to being a mess cook, yeoman (secretary) or boatswainsmate (paint chipper extraordinaire). With your skills you probably tested well on the asvab and should be able to choose your path before entering. I would choose an advanced electronics job if you dont want to spend the next four years chipping paint and waxing floors (although you will chip paint and wax floors no matter what job you have, just not nearly as much with an electronics or weapons job). I spent six years in the USN and learned how to clean urinals and polish brass well (along with developing a strong electronics troubleshooting background, I was a data systems tech 1990-96... not sure if the rate still exists or got rolled into the electronics tech rate). Many times I wished I had joined the Air Force, esp after extended stays on several AF bases, although it is more difficult to make rank in the AF.
Any enlisted job in the Navy is hard, both physically and emotionally and nobody can really tell you how it is until you experience it. You will be in complete awe at some of the amazing things that get done for this country at ALL hours of the day and night, I was and still cant believe some of the stuff I did (voluntarily or not).
Definitely take advantage of ALL educational opportunities that present themselves including the GI bill. Also, take every chance you can to go on cruises overseas (except the persian gulf, you wont step on land for months). West coast fleet has more fun, but east coast does Med and south american cruises, both are awesome if you get to port often.
Good luck with it! It will be the experience of your life!
BTW, Ive been following this topic... Great work!
Torque 3D Owner Jacob Dankovchik
The list of things I wish to do are:
1. Waterbed shading. As I've already done and you've seen.
2. Underwater light viewing. As I just described.
3. Underwater visibility. As is still to come.
4. Realtime texture splatting. Doesn't do anything for water, but helps to make good textures without a massive TQT file and infinite resolution of it basically.