No Fun Stage
by Star Kori · in General Discussion · 07/14/2005 (1:39 pm) · 9 replies
If you have completed a game, or nearly completed a game... here are some questions.
What was the time frame from beginning to end of game development in months (6, 12, 18)?
How long was it fun (how many months into game project), and when did it start being work? When did it start being... 'god, I wish I had never started this game'?
Did it ever start being fun again, or was it work until the end?
Most newbie Indie's think making a game is fun from day one to the game is finished. I would like a more realistic time line of fun to work, and hard workn from Indie's who have completed a game.
If it was fun for you the whole time, start to finish, tell the rest of us your secret on how to not let it become work.
Kori
What was the time frame from beginning to end of game development in months (6, 12, 18)?
How long was it fun (how many months into game project), and when did it start being work? When did it start being... 'god, I wish I had never started this game'?
Did it ever start being fun again, or was it work until the end?
Most newbie Indie's think making a game is fun from day one to the game is finished. I would like a more realistic time line of fun to work, and hard workn from Indie's who have completed a game.
If it was fun for you the whole time, start to finish, tell the rest of us your secret on how to not let it become work.
Kori
About the author
#2
He has a cool idea for a game, and goes into it with every spare hour. Then after x months, it's not so much fun anymore. And then after x months, it's painful to even work on the game.
I am interested in stories from indies who have gone the path. I want to hear their stories. How long was it fun? When did it become work? When did it get painful to work on it at all? Did it ever get to be fun again? Did you finish?
Kori
07/14/2005 (2:45 pm)
I welcome all posts. I am sure others who are working on games would be interested. I guess, when I posted my question, I was speaking of one person working on a game, or a very small team. You know the kind of person I am talking about...He has a cool idea for a game, and goes into it with every spare hour. Then after x months, it's not so much fun anymore. And then after x months, it's painful to even work on the game.
I am interested in stories from indies who have gone the path. I want to hear their stories. How long was it fun? When did it become work? When did it get painful to work on it at all? Did it ever get to be fun again? Did you finish?
Kori
#3
07/14/2005 (3:26 pm)
Rumble Box was fun throughout the project, because we loved everything we were doing. However, I have been on projects that got really dull as soon as the engine was finished, and those games in the end didn't turn out to be a whole lot of fun. 
#4
Sometimes it's fun. When you are working on something new, or feeding your own creative demons. Seeing new content coming together is always delightful. And then there's that magical moment when it ceases to be a tech demo and miraculously turns into a GAME. That's awesome.
Sometimes it's work. Particularly the testing / debug stage. When the game is about 20% done (what most newbies call, "Almost Done"), and suddenly progress slows WAY down because you are doing all the detail work now instead of the "rough draft" and so the changes aren't so visible or noticeable anymore - it often becomes much less fun. The first time you do an importer from a particular file format can be kinda fun. The fourth time (for yet another format)... not so much. When you are trying to find a weird hang that only occurs 1 out of six multiplayer games 5-30 minutes into the game... also not so much fun.
Traditionally, the first couple of months are so much fun it barely feels like work. The last couple months are a LOT of work, but you can also SEE how fun your game is, and so it can also be kinda fun. The big gaping in-between time (a good 50%+ of the time), it can still be fun - but it's a buttload of work, and sometimes that can bury the fun. But I've NEVER said, "I wish I never started this game." Sure, there are times when I say, "Holy crap, what have I gotten myself into?" There are definitely days (even weeks) where it's sheer force of will (or the desire to continue drawing a paycheck from my employer) to keep working on the game. But even during those "dark times", once the game is playable it's fun to just jump in, play a few levels or rounds or whatever, and remind yourself of what your end goal is, and how much fun the game can be.
07/14/2005 (4:44 pm)
BOTH. Sometimes it's fun. When you are working on something new, or feeding your own creative demons. Seeing new content coming together is always delightful. And then there's that magical moment when it ceases to be a tech demo and miraculously turns into a GAME. That's awesome.
Sometimes it's work. Particularly the testing / debug stage. When the game is about 20% done (what most newbies call, "Almost Done"), and suddenly progress slows WAY down because you are doing all the detail work now instead of the "rough draft" and so the changes aren't so visible or noticeable anymore - it often becomes much less fun. The first time you do an importer from a particular file format can be kinda fun. The fourth time (for yet another format)... not so much. When you are trying to find a weird hang that only occurs 1 out of six multiplayer games 5-30 minutes into the game... also not so much fun.
Traditionally, the first couple of months are so much fun it barely feels like work. The last couple months are a LOT of work, but you can also SEE how fun your game is, and so it can also be kinda fun. The big gaping in-between time (a good 50%+ of the time), it can still be fun - but it's a buttload of work, and sometimes that can bury the fun. But I've NEVER said, "I wish I never started this game." Sure, there are times when I say, "Holy crap, what have I gotten myself into?" There are definitely days (even weeks) where it's sheer force of will (or the desire to continue drawing a paycheck from my employer) to keep working on the game. But even during those "dark times", once the game is playable it's fun to just jump in, play a few levels or rounds or whatever, and remind yourself of what your end goal is, and how much fun the game can be.
#5
To give a concrete example, in Shelled you can set the gravity to any planet in our solar system. This was selected via a drop-down menu in the game options and it was highly cool to see it there and working, and firing shells reflecting the gravity selected. But then AI had trouble firing under different gravity conditions... certain shell artillery types would go beserk under no gravity... the menu to select gravity wasn't hugely user-friendly in reflecting how selecting a planet would alter gameplay... a new menu using a scroll box instead of drop down box was put in, showing the actual gravity number of each planet... that led to putting tiny icons of each planet next to each planet name... and now those need to be shifted further apart so the planet icons don't run into each other... and AI and shell artillery problems still need to be addressed.
You can see how one seemingly small feature introduced can lead to a "slippery slope" of problems... but also periods where it's exciting and just darn cool... thus it seems to be a cycle.
07/15/2005 (4:07 pm)
Quote:(6, 12, 18)?Shelled has been in development for 6 months and has another good 6 months to go until gold.
Quote:How long was it fun (how many months into game project)The first 2 months were a ripping blast -- art came in, core features got put in, every day and update was something fun.
Quote:and when did it start being work?Once gameplay was done enough to be considered a "prototype" but required oodles more programming from there to be a real game.
Quote:When did it start being... god, I wish I had never started this game?When there were a million little things that needed to be done and none of them were getting done. Each item was a small thing on its own and therefore easy to say "I'll do that later," but cumulatively they added up to a big headache.
Quote:Did it ever start being fun again, or was it work until the end?It definitely got fun again, once a "critical mass" of many of those million small things got complete, and it started to shape up into something that resembled a game. From there it goes in cycles -- a breakthrough point of new features/polish is done, there's a buzz of excitement, then that excitement wears off as the realization sets in that the new features or elements requires further polish from there. Polishing the polish.
To give a concrete example, in Shelled you can set the gravity to any planet in our solar system. This was selected via a drop-down menu in the game options and it was highly cool to see it there and working, and firing shells reflecting the gravity selected. But then AI had trouble firing under different gravity conditions... certain shell artillery types would go beserk under no gravity... the menu to select gravity wasn't hugely user-friendly in reflecting how selecting a planet would alter gameplay... a new menu using a scroll box instead of drop down box was put in, showing the actual gravity number of each planet... that led to putting tiny icons of each planet next to each planet name... and now those need to be shifted further apart so the planet icons don't run into each other... and AI and shell artillery problems still need to be addressed.
You can see how one seemingly small feature introduced can lead to a "slippery slope" of problems... but also periods where it's exciting and just darn cool... thus it seems to be a cycle.
#6
07/15/2005 (4:13 pm)
Quote: and now those need to be shifted further apart so the planet icons don't run into each other...Blame it on the dyanmic GUI! ;)
#7
It's been hard for us to accomplish much on our own, so we've agreed to start meeting every other week for 4-6 hours to Work On Stuff together. Personally, it's hard for me to work on my game when so many Bright And Shiny Things await me on my hard drive (BattleField 2 being the shiniest at the moment). By getting together, we can encourage each other ("Quit screwin around!" whap!) and help each other when stuck on something ("No no no, like THIS stupid!" BootToTheHead!).
That's not practical for internet-based teams, but you might be able to simulate it using IRC/IM... or even VOIP.
--Mark
07/25/2005 (10:12 am)
Gabe and I are working together.It's been hard for us to accomplish much on our own, so we've agreed to start meeting every other week for 4-6 hours to Work On Stuff together. Personally, it's hard for me to work on my game when so many Bright And Shiny Things await me on my hard drive (BattleField 2 being the shiniest at the moment). By getting together, we can encourage each other ("Quit screwin around!" whap!) and help each other when stuck on something ("No no no, like THIS stupid!" BootToTheHead!).
That's not practical for internet-based teams, but you might be able to simulate it using IRC/IM... or even VOIP.
--Mark
#8
Did anybody use any starter kits as a point to start your game?
If so, at what point were you able to say this is my game?
For example i'm making a WW2 Action game using 3dgs a lot of the leg work such as shooting actions and player death is done. Some AI issues need to be adressed, mainly the enemies are idiots. I've got a basic room with the gameplay i want but i didn't code any of it. How can i call this my game? Can i do that when i change the art assets and make modifications to the code?
I know theres a such thing as the not built here complex and i'm feeling it
07/25/2005 (1:02 pm)
With the recent starter kits and available technologies its hard for me to call my game more than a mod at this point. I'm not sure at what point it will be a game that is different than the demo that came with the product. Did anybody use any starter kits as a point to start your game?
If so, at what point were you able to say this is my game?
For example i'm making a WW2 Action game using 3dgs a lot of the leg work such as shooting actions and player death is done. Some AI issues need to be adressed, mainly the enemies are idiots. I've got a basic room with the gameplay i want but i didn't code any of it. How can i call this my game? Can i do that when i change the art assets and make modifications to the code?
I know theres a such thing as the not built here complex and i'm feeling it
#9
Every game I have done (and a good portion of the ones GG has done) started off with the fps starter kit. Realistically, proffessional game development is about reusing code/art and then "modding" it into each separate game. Only hobbyists have the luxury of "building from scratch".
Whenever you want =P Actually, there is usually a point when all of a sudden the game will feel like "yours". It is generally never something in particular....just an accumulation of little things...and *bam* the game suddenly feels like a *game* =)
07/25/2005 (2:44 pm)
Quote:
Did anybody use any starter kits as a point to start your game?
Every game I have done (and a good portion of the ones GG has done) started off with the fps starter kit. Realistically, proffessional game development is about reusing code/art and then "modding" it into each separate game. Only hobbyists have the luxury of "building from scratch".
Quote:
If so, at what point were you able to say this is my game?
Whenever you want =P Actually, there is usually a point when all of a sudden the game will feel like "yours". It is generally never something in particular....just an accumulation of little things...and *bam* the game suddenly feels like a *game* =)
Torque Owner Gabrial Hartnett
For time frame, it varies wildly based on game type, project scope, art requirements, size of the development team, skill sets of those involved as well as wether you are working on it dedicated full time or just in your spare time.
There are tones of game in a day projects that have been done, as well as games in a week type things. Small simple puzzle games like tetris can be done relatively quickly compared to a multiplayer persistant state world.
How long was it fun? I would not be doing it if it was not fun. Must projects die if they hit the not fun stage. It also depends on what you think is fun. I really enjoy planning, designing coding and managing a group of people. I can do that forever, its office politics I hate.
I have found that the most fun for me has always been when the project is on schedule and progresing. it becomes frustrating working on a project that is not carefully scoped out or planned and scheduled, becuase every time something new comes up the entire schedule has to be rebuilt and you often never seem like your any closer to the finish line.
That is all I can really offer you. The project I am woking on now we are looking at a 12 to 18 month cycle. Team of four very skilled people, working part time on a rather basic game. We are including everything from custom models and animation to environments and core engine changes.
So take from that what you will.