As a beginner, what is your biggest hurdle so far?
by Mark Barner · in Torque Game Engine · 07/04/2005 (11:16 am) · 109 replies
As a beginner to TGE, what is your biggest hurdle so far? Is it lack of documentation, never made a game before, artist that knows nothing about programming or whatever it may be.
#82
The tutorials that I found helpful are the Super Simple Torque Demo tutorial, the MinApp tutorials, and the tutorial.base tutorial. Just use the search function to find the first two. They help because the break things down to the simplest forms, and you can then look at the scripts to figure out how things work and how the program flows.
After you work through some of those, and maybe do a few other things, then when you go back to Chapter 4 of Ken's book things start making a lot more sense.
12/09/2005 (10:40 am)
@J.Marcus: Don't feel too bad, I was in exactly the same spot a couple of months ago. I tried using Ken's book, but Chapter 4 was the wall that I just could not hurdle. There were far too many concepts that didn't get explained or explained well enough, and I felt a little lost. But there are many more ways to learn Torque, and I've found that perhaps a good way to go about it is to read Ken's first 3 chapters, then try some other tutorials, and then go back to the book and continue at Chapter 4.The tutorials that I found helpful are the Super Simple Torque Demo tutorial, the MinApp tutorials, and the tutorial.base tutorial. Just use the search function to find the first two. They help because the break things down to the simplest forms, and you can then look at the scripts to figure out how things work and how the program flows.
After you work through some of those, and maybe do a few other things, then when you go back to Chapter 4 of Ken's book things start making a lot more sense.
#83
12/09/2005 (12:16 pm)
@Don: I have never been able to understand the cavalier attitude of GG towards providing the TorqueScript Command Reference documentation. I do understand the effort towards providing the elixir methodology so that the documentation would be uptodate. But it just seems to me only rational that upon each major release, 1.3, 1.35 or 1.4, the dOxygen or whatever process would be done by GG, not the individual community members, as suggested (because it's sooo easy), and posted to the documentation page. I just can't for the life of me see what the disconnect is all about. Reminds of a combination of the Monty Python "Cheese Shop" and the "Dead Parrot" skit.
#84
need a LOT more tutorials. these tutorials are excellent, we need to have a lot more of them however:
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5661
It's nearly impossible to find things on the site. I found the super simple torque demo, but only because someone mentioned it above. I am only now realizing that i needed to dig through 'resources' in 'scripting' to find tutorials and documentation on scripting. I dunno, seems like that should have been under Using Torque, right on the left nav bar!
I also have a fear that investing in this platform might be a waste if garagegames doesn't manage things properly. They need the money to really build better tools, but I think they are not charging enough money (sorry folks!) Torque really is a great *start*, but for example the mission editor interface is really not good enough. Just basic usability features are lacking, simple stuff like allowing Enter to equal clicking on OK.
I agree with comments above that wiki and userbase documentation will be useful, however i also agree that *it is not our responsibility to document it*. GG should document it as they go. This shows me that there's mostly programmers running the show at GG, which is scary. Developers don't like to write docs, but *someone* at GG should understand how important it is for use poor users and make sure the docs are up to snuff at all times.
also the fact that the wiki has some serious problems (can't log into the developers site most of the time), and it has almost no info really bothers me. i mean how hard can it be to fix that? so, i just have to wonder about management at GG, no offense guys, but all the stuff i'm talking about above are management issues.
that said, the community has been awesome. best i've encountered which is one reason i'm switching to torque.
12/09/2005 (12:36 pm)
Documentation! it's not all in one place, and it is incomplete. in addition i have serious concerns about whether or not it is all up to date. i mean, it certainly is not all up to date, even the garagegames website itself says you 'must compile the engine yourself', but that's clearly not true for lots of games. and out of the box, you simply do not have to compile the engine.need a LOT more tutorials. these tutorials are excellent, we need to have a lot more of them however:
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5661
It's nearly impossible to find things on the site. I found the super simple torque demo, but only because someone mentioned it above. I am only now realizing that i needed to dig through 'resources' in 'scripting' to find tutorials and documentation on scripting. I dunno, seems like that should have been under Using Torque, right on the left nav bar!
I also have a fear that investing in this platform might be a waste if garagegames doesn't manage things properly. They need the money to really build better tools, but I think they are not charging enough money (sorry folks!) Torque really is a great *start*, but for example the mission editor interface is really not good enough. Just basic usability features are lacking, simple stuff like allowing Enter to equal clicking on OK.
I agree with comments above that wiki and userbase documentation will be useful, however i also agree that *it is not our responsibility to document it*. GG should document it as they go. This shows me that there's mostly programmers running the show at GG, which is scary. Developers don't like to write docs, but *someone* at GG should understand how important it is for use poor users and make sure the docs are up to snuff at all times.
also the fact that the wiki has some serious problems (can't log into the developers site most of the time), and it has almost no info really bothers me. i mean how hard can it be to fix that? so, i just have to wonder about management at GG, no offense guys, but all the stuff i'm talking about above are management issues.
that said, the community has been awesome. best i've encountered which is one reason i'm switching to torque.
#85
http://www.3impact.com/3Impact_Engine/hulk7123/reference.htm
Nothing fancy. Just organized and in one place. I've never used 3impact so I can't speak for the quality but at least they have a reference. I think one or two people could get that level of documentation done in a week if they knew TorqueScript inside out. Just having that would be a tremendous help.
Right now, as much as I like Torque, I could not recommend it to anyone just because of the lack of TorqueScript reference. Think in terms of sales. A week of effort could possibly result in several more sales each week if Torque could begin to shed its reputation of being hard to learn. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've read smack about Torque on other boards. Torque itself is not hard to learn, its just that the things a noob like me needs to get off the ground don't exist.
Don
12/09/2005 (1:46 pm)
How hard would it be to do a TorqueScript reference like what the 3impact engine has done?http://www.3impact.com/3Impact_Engine/hulk7123/reference.htm
Nothing fancy. Just organized and in one place. I've never used 3impact so I can't speak for the quality but at least they have a reference. I think one or two people could get that level of documentation done in a week if they knew TorqueScript inside out. Just having that would be a tremendous help.
Right now, as much as I like Torque, I could not recommend it to anyone just because of the lack of TorqueScript reference. Think in terms of sales. A week of effort could possibly result in several more sales each week if Torque could begin to shed its reputation of being hard to learn. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've read smack about Torque on other boards. Torque itself is not hard to learn, its just that the things a noob like me needs to get off the ground don't exist.
Don
#86
A simple search of the forums does not always return the best information. In many events I have found the best documentation by reading thru forum postings... "a long and tedious task"
I have still not found much information about the 1.4 upgrades and how to utilize them.
12/10/2005 (8:35 am)
My biggest hurdle is locating the proper documentation. I have also had a rather difficult time understanding the flow of the code. I finally overcame the latter problem by simply reading thru the code and running debugger step by step to get an understanding of how the engine functions. As for the former I still spend 90 percent of my time searching for the necessary documentation that I need to implement certainfunctions.A simple search of the forums does not always return the best information. In many events I have found the best documentation by reading thru forum postings... "a long and tedious task"
I have still not found much information about the 1.4 upgrades and how to utilize them.
#87
Thank you so much for all these well-spoken comments! I'm delighted to see so many people taking a proactive attitude towards helping us improve Torque.
Really, I think a lot of this commentary is spot on, and I'm hoping that as we move forward, much of it will be addressed. Projects like TDN and Elixir are already helping us make big strides in this area, and I think that a year from now, our docs will have gone from "ok" to "among the best on the market." Of course, that won't happen without the community helping us out, both through threads like this and by getting involved with making Torque ever better. :)
I do want to share one thing with you, though, which is a little bit of Torque's history. As many of you know, Torque was developed originally as an in-house engine at Dynamix, where it powered games like Trophy Hunter 5 and Tribes 2. Much of the engine design traces back to the tech used on Tribes 1 and the Starsiege series, and even older projects before that. If you look carefully, you can even find little bits of code from Quake in there - Carmack let the guys at Dynamix use some of his tech in Torque's development. :)
Tribes 2 was a big project that ended up being significantly over schedule. While the reasons for that overage is really out of scope for this discussion, it meant a lot of development tasks were rushed and large sections of code were debugged or rewritten deep in the depths of crunch time. While Torque is a strong engine, a lot of the code bears the marks of this abbreviated development cycle.
You have to understand that unlike 99% of the engines out there, TGE was developed entirely for real games, on real game production schedules. And because of this, it never had the luxury of large amounts of time scheduled for writing docs and tutorials. And so when we got the rights to it, we had a huge engine with a lot of functionality, that had no documentation. We knew how to use it - since the founders all helped write it - but communicating that knowledge takes a lot of work. :)
If you look at thing we actually did develop in-house with foreknowledge they would be engine products, like T2D or TNL (www.opentnl.org), you can see that they have significantly more thorough documentation and examples than TGE and TSE do - and the new parts in TSE have much better docs. Look at the comments and docs around Atlas, for example.
My point here is that we do take docs seriously here, and where we have the power to do so, we're making sure that they're good. TGE is a tough case, though, and it's not quick to document it. :)
Thanks again for all your feedback. I look forward to seeing what else everyone has to say!
12/10/2005 (12:29 pm)
Hey guys,Thank you so much for all these well-spoken comments! I'm delighted to see so many people taking a proactive attitude towards helping us improve Torque.
Really, I think a lot of this commentary is spot on, and I'm hoping that as we move forward, much of it will be addressed. Projects like TDN and Elixir are already helping us make big strides in this area, and I think that a year from now, our docs will have gone from "ok" to "among the best on the market." Of course, that won't happen without the community helping us out, both through threads like this and by getting involved with making Torque ever better. :)
I do want to share one thing with you, though, which is a little bit of Torque's history. As many of you know, Torque was developed originally as an in-house engine at Dynamix, where it powered games like Trophy Hunter 5 and Tribes 2. Much of the engine design traces back to the tech used on Tribes 1 and the Starsiege series, and even older projects before that. If you look carefully, you can even find little bits of code from Quake in there - Carmack let the guys at Dynamix use some of his tech in Torque's development. :)
Tribes 2 was a big project that ended up being significantly over schedule. While the reasons for that overage is really out of scope for this discussion, it meant a lot of development tasks were rushed and large sections of code were debugged or rewritten deep in the depths of crunch time. While Torque is a strong engine, a lot of the code bears the marks of this abbreviated development cycle.
You have to understand that unlike 99% of the engines out there, TGE was developed entirely for real games, on real game production schedules. And because of this, it never had the luxury of large amounts of time scheduled for writing docs and tutorials. And so when we got the rights to it, we had a huge engine with a lot of functionality, that had no documentation. We knew how to use it - since the founders all helped write it - but communicating that knowledge takes a lot of work. :)
If you look at thing we actually did develop in-house with foreknowledge they would be engine products, like T2D or TNL (www.opentnl.org), you can see that they have significantly more thorough documentation and examples than TGE and TSE do - and the new parts in TSE have much better docs. Look at the comments and docs around Atlas, for example.
My point here is that we do take docs seriously here, and where we have the power to do so, we're making sure that they're good. TGE is a tough case, though, and it's not quick to document it. :)
Thanks again for all your feedback. I look forward to seeing what else everyone has to say!
#89
I would have to say I agree with one of the other posts. Just having the HTML files generated by doxygen would have been helpful. I wanted to start digging into the game, but instead have spent a lot time setting up doucment links.
That being said, I do find the information useful, once setup.
The only thing I do not like and as being new to Torugue frustrates me, is the Resources need to reference which build they were written against. Maybe a link at the top of the resource that indicates which version the author is writting the resource for. Then the user would know if it would work with his version.
Just a thought. Even some of the forum threads I have read are way outdated...
12/11/2005 (10:01 pm)
I started to make a comment a few days ago about the lack of documentation, but held of after I found a few references to doxygen and a few other links.I would have to say I agree with one of the other posts. Just having the HTML files generated by doxygen would have been helpful. I wanted to start digging into the game, but instead have spent a lot time setting up doucment links.
That being said, I do find the information useful, once setup.
The only thing I do not like and as being new to Torugue frustrates me, is the Resources need to reference which build they were written against. Maybe a link at the top of the resource that indicates which version the author is writting the resource for. Then the user would know if it would work with his version.
Just a thought. Even some of the forum threads I have read are way outdated...
#90
BTW I am using 3DS 6, and plugin is for 3DS 6.
Thankx
12/11/2005 (11:23 pm)
I installed the plugin to make DTS files in 3DSmax (maxtodtsexporter.dle). When I try to export an 3D object from 3DSmax, I get the message "no bounding box". This may be a newbie question, but how do I set the bounding box. I can see a bounding box.... and tryed all the 3DS help. But the plugin complains. BTW I am using 3DS 6, and plugin is for 3DS 6.
Thankx
#91
I've be using Torque for a few months now and am having a great time with it, but reading the forum threads and seeing people getting frustrated tells me it's not laid out well enough. I think the community should work together and create a section as I have called it above. Probably the Torque Developer Network (TDN) is a good place to start it.
There should be one main focus of the section, which is, presume the reader has no prior knowledge of programming, graphics and sound generation for games, game design or scripting skill. Every tut should focus on this in this section.
Newcomers should not felt patronised because of this focus, it's just the best way to introduce the material to everyone from different backgrounds.
I know the answers are already in these pages, it's just not organised well enough to make learning Torque fun.
A final thought is to host webcasts once a month teaching people how to use Torque, with some sort of IIRC feedback session at the end. Then store the entire session online for others to watch later, if they can't make it at the time. To attract professional teachers, a pay subscription based sign up could also be employed for Masterclass sessions, but a lot of sessions should be free.
12/12/2005 (3:06 am)
I can see a real need for a "Welcome To Torque - Getting Started" space on this server. I admit there is plenty of documentation to get started, but the trick is you have to know the answers first to find the questions you want to be asking. I believe that is the shortcoming of this site. The initial hurdle is quite high, but once you are over the first one, the subsequent ones get lower and lower.I've be using Torque for a few months now and am having a great time with it, but reading the forum threads and seeing people getting frustrated tells me it's not laid out well enough. I think the community should work together and create a section as I have called it above. Probably the Torque Developer Network (TDN) is a good place to start it.
There should be one main focus of the section, which is, presume the reader has no prior knowledge of programming, graphics and sound generation for games, game design or scripting skill. Every tut should focus on this in this section.
Newcomers should not felt patronised because of this focus, it's just the best way to introduce the material to everyone from different backgrounds.
I know the answers are already in these pages, it's just not organised well enough to make learning Torque fun.
A final thought is to host webcasts once a month teaching people how to use Torque, with some sort of IIRC feedback session at the end. Then store the entire session online for others to watch later, if they can't make it at the time. To attract professional teachers, a pay subscription based sign up could also be employed for Masterclass sessions, but a lot of sessions should be free.
#92
The second hardest was learning character export workflow.
Ari
12/12/2005 (4:23 am)
My biggest hurdle was learning C++. :pThe second hardest was learning character export workflow.
Ari
#93
I think that could be a correction in the engine, besides that I have read some of the Books and it seems fairly straightforward to me although some members have had problems with models and mounting and unmounting, also it would be nice if there was more support for having any tyoe of shape as terrain including spheres but apart from that I think things are fairly straightforward you have two excellent books out and I shall be delving more into them
12/13/2005 (12:58 pm)
Er Ben, excuse a relative newbie expressing his small opinion but I think seeing as quite a few engines have a lot of the joystick fucntions easliy accessible and as I bought the Tribes 2 and Earth and Starsiege games I really can see why you can't just include the joystick instructions to be easily accesible from the options menu in the demo's and I think that would solve that problem once and for all so if you wanted say your player avater to be controlled by the mouse and keyboard but your vehicles to be controlled by a 2 3 or 4 axis joystick (Thrustmaster Afterburner Series, Satiek X36/45 and 52 series) with hat support or a joystick wheel you can simply access from the options screen as in Starsiege (Tribes2 tends to have and ethier mouse and keyboard or joystick option and I would like to see you can have on set of controls for player avatar's another for vehiclesI think that could be a correction in the engine, besides that I have read some of the Books and it seems fairly straightforward to me although some members have had problems with models and mounting and unmounting, also it would be nice if there was more support for having any tyoe of shape as terrain including spheres but apart from that I think things are fairly straightforward you have two excellent books out and I shall be delving more into them
#94
http://www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/general/ch08.php
look for 3dsmax
look for DTS
http://www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/
12/13/2005 (1:11 pm)
@Jay Bhttp://www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/general/ch08.php
look for 3dsmax
look for DTS
http://www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/
#95
Seriously, I would like to see a downloadable mega document that covers overviews on the engine - 4 noobs - (I can look at the engine source but this would be nice):
datablocks
server/client networking
projectiles
physics
collisions
...etc
12/13/2005 (1:13 pm)
My biggest hurdle right now is getting through to the site...Seriously, I would like to see a downloadable mega document that covers overviews on the engine - 4 noobs - (I can look at the engine source but this would be nice):
datablocks
server/client networking
projectiles
physics
collisions
...etc
#96
Basically, I like to think of the search feature as a pair of Nike Air Jordans. When I reach a high hurtle, I just through them on and leap over it.
- Anthony
12/13/2005 (2:00 pm)
I have found answers to every single question of mine through the search feature. I have been a member of GarageGames for years, and rarely had to make a post needing an answer to a question (Even when I did not own a license). I think the number one ability everyone needs is the ability to research their question. The search link is right on the top menu, I probably visit the search link on GG more than any other site on the web. There are so many resources for so many different things in torque, it is too easy to create something fun to play. I like the docs, they seem a bit rudamentry for me (at least to newer developers). Since I come from a programming background (I used Genesis3D, then CrystalSpace, then NeoEngine, did quite a few things with Ogre3D, played with Nebula2 engine, which is THE best free engine avail. You just have to be a great programmer to use it effectively, and now I am at TGE/TSE). TGE is and will always be the easiest way to develope a game. I want to go as far to say that GarageGames has pioneerd the modern indie industry.Basically, I like to think of the search feature as a pair of Nike Air Jordans. When I reach a high hurtle, I just through them on and leap over it.
- Anthony
#98
A lot of my searches turn up forum posts from 2002-2005. It being 2007, I'm just left wondering has much changed by version 1.5 that now older solutions to certain issues need to be rethought?
OK, I can site one example I was dealing with today: removing the key 'TAB' keybinding to keep the player in 3rd person view and only 3rd person view. After following every instruction, the TAB key still functioned perfectly (or imperfectly, from my perspective)!
I guess a common issue I'm also finding is that there seems to be (and I'm a newbie here) that a lot of the same preferences seem to be set all over the place and I can't tell what I should be changing for my desired result! I can't tell you home many places I've changed the camera FOV... only to go back and have absolutely nothing different happening with the camera! I feel like this game engine is a bit of fortress and, try as I may, I just can't seem to crack it open!
Documentation is certainly a repeated hurdle I hear others mentioning. I'm trying to wrap my head around the fundamentals of how exactly the C++ code and the Torque scripting communicate with each other on the conceptual level.
I'm primarily an artist, but have been dabbling in C++ for a number of years off and on. I would've hoped that the scripting language would be a little more intuitive and all encompassing, so I'm puzzled by why so many forums and resources require alteration of the C++ code, or both scripts AND C++ code, rather than scripting solutions.
04/13/2007 (3:13 pm)
One of my problems right now (working on a Mac, using version 1.5, and it being the year 2007) is that I'm finding a lot of information on the forums that either isn't working for me or is otherwise outdated. At the moment I can't sight specific examples, but I am continually finding the frustration of going through examples, adding sample code, using tutorials... and it just reaches a point where things just stop working. I'll go through everything step by step, recheck my work, and after having followed every instruction to the T, what I'm promised (and what other posters seem to have great success with) doesn't work for me.A lot of my searches turn up forum posts from 2002-2005. It being 2007, I'm just left wondering has much changed by version 1.5 that now older solutions to certain issues need to be rethought?
OK, I can site one example I was dealing with today: removing the key 'TAB' keybinding to keep the player in 3rd person view and only 3rd person view. After following every instruction, the TAB key still functioned perfectly (or imperfectly, from my perspective)!
I guess a common issue I'm also finding is that there seems to be (and I'm a newbie here) that a lot of the same preferences seem to be set all over the place and I can't tell what I should be changing for my desired result! I can't tell you home many places I've changed the camera FOV... only to go back and have absolutely nothing different happening with the camera! I feel like this game engine is a bit of fortress and, try as I may, I just can't seem to crack it open!
Documentation is certainly a repeated hurdle I hear others mentioning. I'm trying to wrap my head around the fundamentals of how exactly the C++ code and the Torque scripting communicate with each other on the conceptual level.
I'm primarily an artist, but have been dabbling in C++ for a number of years off and on. I would've hoped that the scripting language would be a little more intuitive and all encompassing, so I'm puzzled by why so many forums and resources require alteration of the C++ code, or both scripts AND C++ code, rather than scripting solutions.
#99
Same here. :( In addition to Macs being poorly documented anyway, all the tutorials are outdated! It's frustrating... But I did just get some very nice help with compiling, so that was great. :)
04/13/2007 (7:52 pm)
Quote:One of my problems right now (working on a Mac, using version 1.5, and it being the year 2007) is that I'm finding a lot of information on the forums that either isn't working for me or is otherwise outdated. At the moment I can't sight specific examples, but I am continually finding the frustration of going through examples, adding sample code, using tutorials... and it just reaches a point where things just stop working. I'll go through everything step by step, recheck my work, and after having followed every instruction to the T, what I'm promised (and what other posters seem to have great success with) doesn't work for me.
Same here. :( In addition to Macs being poorly documented anyway, all the tutorials are outdated! It's frustrating... But I did just get some very nice help with compiling, so that was great. :)
Torque 3D Owner Thomas Shaw
When I first bought TGE and took my first look at the documentation, I almost cried. It really is a mess in regards to the art pipeline.
But that subject has been beaten to death on here.
I have every reason to believe that we will soon be seeing shiney new documentation, via the developer network or whatever.
Good work, GG