Reviving the "Roleplaying experience" thread
by Alfred Norris · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 06/05/2005 (11:47 pm) · 110 replies
Wow. I just read the thread down there and it had some interesting throughts. Hopefully people would still like to discuss those issues?
1) Live people playing in-game monsters:
I believe you will see this more and more as long as the finances can support it. The Themis Group (MMO econ think tank) believes that the future of MMOs will be guided excursions.
In our project we are implementing 2 interfaces for GMs (who at release will be my online gaming guild that has 50+ members and plays SB and WoW)
a) An RTS-like interface - so that one person can control in-game mobs with one interface for much more realistic encounters. GM spawns 10 mobs of level 35 next to 6 characters average level 30. They send some mobs for what they think is the leader and scattered mobs for various other players. In the end its real people reacting to what they see.
b) Acting as NPCs - the ability to jump into any NPC and speak, attack, move around as that character. This can lead to highly customized reactions or conversations about a multitude of things. I can see that a GM might have to cook dinner and play at the same time in real life. Ok. Jump into a guard who is patrolling an area. The guard is scripted to move around, but when the GM can be at the computer he sees a player trying to sneak into the control room.
2) Do stats break immersion?:
There's a post about designing MMOs called "Mu's unbelievably long rant about designing MMOs" or something like that. He wrote it several years back and called for a no-stats game. The idea is tempting...but I just dont think it should be done.
a) people will find a way to make their character more powerful
Try as hard as you might to vary xp, randomly change xp based on lvl of mob, location and other factors...some geek is going to sit there with a pad and a pencil and find out that 1000 kills of Mob X = 32 skill points. You will get found out.
b) people LIKE to min/max stats - It lets them feel more in control and that that can really have a good character
c) can you realistically give non-numerical information that is as good?
Ok. So your character limps when his leg is broken and is a pretty good lock pick. But how does a character know that he only has 30 hp left out of 3000? If hes only pretty good at lockpicking...wont he get tired of trying to open an uber-hard safe...and just get frustrated?
Perhaps you can come up with an entire info feedback replacement for numbers, but I feel they are necessary. Besides PnP roleplaying is even MORE mathmatical but you dont hear people saying they roleplay LESS in PnP.
3) Player-run quests:
Im not opposed to this..but most of the examples given could have been fixed by going to the bazaar or teaming up with friends. You dont have the Ogre Staff of Pummelling? Why post a whole quest when you can buy one? (Personally Id rather go get it myself but Im being realistic about how MMO players work) Why post a quest when your buddies will help you get it? To be fair...perhaps you could work out a system where they post a quest that their buddies can accept, which gives more xp than merely going and killing the mob, but there has to be more than that...otherwise its just extra xp for clicking a button. You would need to link it to getting increased faction with the wizard guild (if the quest maker is a wizard) or increased standing in the city nearby.
4) Unreal Gameplay:
Someone spoke of Onslaught gameplay earlier and you must be looking at our game doc ;)
Why dont more MMOs (FPS or not) include UT2K4 gameplay? Assault maps in UT have multiple objectives like quests do. In fact they feel a little more immersive. But they fall flat because planting the bomb is just holding the "E" key down for 10 seconds. Why not link that to an RPG skill to make the whole thing more immersive? Or how about having Invasion gameplay...your clan town is invaded by a nearby religious cult? Or Capture the flag? Youve stolen a virus that the guards want to get back?
1) Live people playing in-game monsters:
I believe you will see this more and more as long as the finances can support it. The Themis Group (MMO econ think tank) believes that the future of MMOs will be guided excursions.
In our project we are implementing 2 interfaces for GMs (who at release will be my online gaming guild that has 50+ members and plays SB and WoW)
a) An RTS-like interface - so that one person can control in-game mobs with one interface for much more realistic encounters. GM spawns 10 mobs of level 35 next to 6 characters average level 30. They send some mobs for what they think is the leader and scattered mobs for various other players. In the end its real people reacting to what they see.
b) Acting as NPCs - the ability to jump into any NPC and speak, attack, move around as that character. This can lead to highly customized reactions or conversations about a multitude of things. I can see that a GM might have to cook dinner and play at the same time in real life. Ok. Jump into a guard who is patrolling an area. The guard is scripted to move around, but when the GM can be at the computer he sees a player trying to sneak into the control room.
2) Do stats break immersion?:
There's a post about designing MMOs called "Mu's unbelievably long rant about designing MMOs" or something like that. He wrote it several years back and called for a no-stats game. The idea is tempting...but I just dont think it should be done.
a) people will find a way to make their character more powerful
Try as hard as you might to vary xp, randomly change xp based on lvl of mob, location and other factors...some geek is going to sit there with a pad and a pencil and find out that 1000 kills of Mob X = 32 skill points. You will get found out.
b) people LIKE to min/max stats - It lets them feel more in control and that that can really have a good character
c) can you realistically give non-numerical information that is as good?
Ok. So your character limps when his leg is broken and is a pretty good lock pick. But how does a character know that he only has 30 hp left out of 3000? If hes only pretty good at lockpicking...wont he get tired of trying to open an uber-hard safe...and just get frustrated?
Perhaps you can come up with an entire info feedback replacement for numbers, but I feel they are necessary. Besides PnP roleplaying is even MORE mathmatical but you dont hear people saying they roleplay LESS in PnP.
3) Player-run quests:
Im not opposed to this..but most of the examples given could have been fixed by going to the bazaar or teaming up with friends. You dont have the Ogre Staff of Pummelling? Why post a whole quest when you can buy one? (Personally Id rather go get it myself but Im being realistic about how MMO players work) Why post a quest when your buddies will help you get it? To be fair...perhaps you could work out a system where they post a quest that their buddies can accept, which gives more xp than merely going and killing the mob, but there has to be more than that...otherwise its just extra xp for clicking a button. You would need to link it to getting increased faction with the wizard guild (if the quest maker is a wizard) or increased standing in the city nearby.
4) Unreal Gameplay:
Someone spoke of Onslaught gameplay earlier and you must be looking at our game doc ;)
Why dont more MMOs (FPS or not) include UT2K4 gameplay? Assault maps in UT have multiple objectives like quests do. In fact they feel a little more immersive. But they fall flat because planting the bomb is just holding the "E" key down for 10 seconds. Why not link that to an RPG skill to make the whole thing more immersive? Or how about having Invasion gameplay...your clan town is invaded by a nearby religious cult? Or Capture the flag? Youve stolen a virus that the guards want to get back?
#102
I believe we came up with a combination of:
a) keywords with emotional weight
b) a choice system where you get to choose from 5 different reactions each with an emotional weight just like Vampire:bloodlines.
Id much prefer the first, but the second might make things easier at least in the beginning.
I mean if we're going to attempt to approximate human reactions back and forth, emotion is very important in conveying info AND in creating dramatic results.
07/20/2005 (8:34 pm)
I was discussing this with the programmer who wrote his PhD thesis on such engines.I believe we came up with a combination of:
a) keywords with emotional weight
b) a choice system where you get to choose from 5 different reactions each with an emotional weight just like Vampire:bloodlines.
Id much prefer the first, but the second might make things easier at least in the beginning.
I mean if we're going to attempt to approximate human reactions back and forth, emotion is very important in conveying info AND in creating dramatic results.
#103
08/03/2005 (4:35 pm)
Did I kill this thread?
#104
08/03/2005 (5:06 pm)
I think everyone may have said their piece and wandered off. I've gotten quite busy lately and sadly have not had a chance to think on the subject of RPGs too much.
#105
Yes, and you should feel bad about it! :)
Just joking with you, actually I totally agree that characters and interactive stories should carry more emotional weight. However, computers are not emotional machines, so the more emotion-driven choices you give to a story, the less interactive it will have to become (because the designer realistically only has so much time to create new and meaningful branches in something as complex as emotions). Chris Crawford has tried to maximize the amount of interactivity in these stories by saying "its not a game at all, it should just be completely story", and this is good to a point, but if you are making a game I think you need to consider the balance between the amount of emotional weight (and the number of branches caused by this) and the amount of time your designers have to make this emotion meaningful.
Hopefully this made sense...
08/03/2005 (5:16 pm)
"Did I kill this thread?"Yes, and you should feel bad about it! :)
Just joking with you, actually I totally agree that characters and interactive stories should carry more emotional weight. However, computers are not emotional machines, so the more emotion-driven choices you give to a story, the less interactive it will have to become (because the designer realistically only has so much time to create new and meaningful branches in something as complex as emotions). Chris Crawford has tried to maximize the amount of interactivity in these stories by saying "its not a game at all, it should just be completely story", and this is good to a point, but if you are making a game I think you need to consider the balance between the amount of emotional weight (and the number of branches caused by this) and the amount of time your designers have to make this emotion meaningful.
Hopefully this made sense...
#106
SWG started out trying to cater to every type of player. There was crafting for the entreprenuer out there, entertaining for the social butterfly, and of course, combat for everyone who really felt like killing something. I think their fatal mistake was ignoring this balance throughout development.
Players ruined SWG as readily the developers... Buff bots and other such garbage ran rampant with afk entertainers. Why tip your friendly neighborhood entertainer when you can get free service from the bot beside him? This stripped the entertainers of the one thing they wanted from the game. Add that to the fact that entertainer missions were utter poo and that they didnt get any new performance pieces until over a year had passed... You see my point. What I never understood was what drove people to play a character that wasn't there to play! (It's literally like having a dancing chia pet on your computer!)
As for the crafters... Well, there really wasn't enough variety in the craft. The stuff made by crafters wasn't needed often enough to make mass-production feasible, but mass production was what came out of it, simply because of the dreaded grind. If players had a wider range of NECESSARY items to craft, a crafting population could make it as, well... Crafters. Co-dependency is a double-edged sword, however, and many players would cry foul that they "had" to rely on the crafters. *sigh*
Finally, combat. The best part in that it was the most developed, the worst in that it stole the show from every other facet of the game. The world of SWG was literally shaped around the whims of the combat elite. Combat upgrade? That caused a near lack of development to every other area of the game while it was in production. Am I wrong in stating the entertainer missions are just as lame as they were on DAY ONE? It may be the most popular area, but remember that it isn't everyone.
However, SWG also had one very special flaw, unique to the SW universe: Jedi. They should have known everyone would want to be one. Why? Because they are the Elite in the SW universe. None compare. You can't feasibly offer people playing a game an ELITE position and expect them not to all jump on board! Everything has to be equal, especially in combat. Either equivalent elite positions need to be formed for every other play style, or they need to be removed. (Which it is far too late for, unfortunately.)
Now, I know I'm already babbling, but let's think about this... Technically, if SWG minus Jedi could have been the best... (Properly balanced amongst its three crowds.) Why doesn't someone make an MMORPG similar? I think in a lot of respects, the current developers are afraid to go against the combat grain. (WoW is obviously focused solely on combat, with a little tidbit here or there for the other crowds. Look at the success it brought!) I think someone with the cash to support an MMO needs to go out on a limb and create a crafting and social community equal to its combat. (Not an easy task without an established realm of existence, I'm afraid.)
08/04/2005 (6:52 am)
As far as the MMORPG scene goes, I think SWG had the best formula. (Emphasis on had...)SWG started out trying to cater to every type of player. There was crafting for the entreprenuer out there, entertaining for the social butterfly, and of course, combat for everyone who really felt like killing something. I think their fatal mistake was ignoring this balance throughout development.
Players ruined SWG as readily the developers... Buff bots and other such garbage ran rampant with afk entertainers. Why tip your friendly neighborhood entertainer when you can get free service from the bot beside him? This stripped the entertainers of the one thing they wanted from the game. Add that to the fact that entertainer missions were utter poo and that they didnt get any new performance pieces until over a year had passed... You see my point. What I never understood was what drove people to play a character that wasn't there to play! (It's literally like having a dancing chia pet on your computer!)
As for the crafters... Well, there really wasn't enough variety in the craft. The stuff made by crafters wasn't needed often enough to make mass-production feasible, but mass production was what came out of it, simply because of the dreaded grind. If players had a wider range of NECESSARY items to craft, a crafting population could make it as, well... Crafters. Co-dependency is a double-edged sword, however, and many players would cry foul that they "had" to rely on the crafters. *sigh*
Finally, combat. The best part in that it was the most developed, the worst in that it stole the show from every other facet of the game. The world of SWG was literally shaped around the whims of the combat elite. Combat upgrade? That caused a near lack of development to every other area of the game while it was in production. Am I wrong in stating the entertainer missions are just as lame as they were on DAY ONE? It may be the most popular area, but remember that it isn't everyone.
However, SWG also had one very special flaw, unique to the SW universe: Jedi. They should have known everyone would want to be one. Why? Because they are the Elite in the SW universe. None compare. You can't feasibly offer people playing a game an ELITE position and expect them not to all jump on board! Everything has to be equal, especially in combat. Either equivalent elite positions need to be formed for every other play style, or they need to be removed. (Which it is far too late for, unfortunately.)
Now, I know I'm already babbling, but let's think about this... Technically, if SWG minus Jedi could have been the best... (Properly balanced amongst its three crowds.) Why doesn't someone make an MMORPG similar? I think in a lot of respects, the current developers are afraid to go against the combat grain. (WoW is obviously focused solely on combat, with a little tidbit here or there for the other crowds. Look at the success it brought!) I think someone with the cash to support an MMO needs to go out on a limb and create a crafting and social community equal to its combat. (Not an easy task without an established realm of existence, I'm afraid.)
#108
Im not one to be full of talk and nothing to show for it when I can be ... if only I could stumble over about 1000 bucks to pay everything off real quick and get Torque2D, heheheh.
08/09/2005 (6:28 am)
Didnt kill the tread for me: Im attempting to move a "less talk, more action" method of addressing my concerns with role playing games.Im not one to be full of talk and nothing to show for it when I can be ... if only I could stumble over about 1000 bucks to pay everything off real quick and get Torque2D, heheheh.
#109
08/09/2005 (6:45 am)
I wouldn't mind happening on money myself... I'd probably still be all talk, though.
#110
In fact, I agree with most of what you said above, although I'd like to make a point about reliance on crafters...
There were two things that ultimately drove me - with utter finality - away from SWG.
1) Jedi, and I shouldn't have to say much more than that.
2) Developer stupidity.
I'm not sure what Einstien decided that, in a "sci-fi" setting it would be cool, or even make sense to have dragon tissue beef up a laser blaster, for cripes sake, what player who doesn't live in the freaking game could afford this crap?
If it's a player who's interested in PvP at ALL, there's no choice - grind away for the uber expensive, insanely over priced gear, or simply don't participate in PvP, which in SWG is the Galactic Civil War! (Or it was at one point. ;-)
Granted, that's not entirely the fault of the players, as I stated, the developers made some collosally stupid decisions in the crafting system that led to this, but the crafters themselves don't help the matter.
If they hear of someone underselling the 'agreed' upon pricing points, they go buy out his or her inventory and mark it up on their own vendors 3 or 4 HUNDRED percent.
As a casual player who doesn't want to spend 4 hours a day grinding for cash - no thanks. No thanks indeed. That was mt last straw - on a game touted to be "casual player friendly"... my @ss!
That brings me to a point though...
Buffs? Crafting components that buff the item? WTF?
I will never understand why developers spend so much time trying to create balanced and equitable systems only to turn right around and implement additional systems that circumvent the systems they JUST put in place.
Then they complain that they can't keep things balanced because the system is too complex. Well no sh1t moron - you just intentionally broke the d@mn thing.
Grrrrr.
I sincerely hope that some developer out there realizes that a system doesn't have to be "complex" to be interesting and that it really is okay to just provide the player with a selection of abilities and leave it at that. I really would prefer to not have some "meta game" (what a load of cr@p) that really just amounts to grinding for "X" hours just to afford "Y" buff.
How extraordinarily lame.
If your game is solid, people will play. If your systems are solid, people will play. If your content is interesting, people will play. Don't try to prop up a tird with some extraordinarily lame attempts and complexity and call it "content".
08/09/2005 (7:19 am)
Nah, you didn't kill it Dustin.In fact, I agree with most of what you said above, although I'd like to make a point about reliance on crafters...
There were two things that ultimately drove me - with utter finality - away from SWG.
1) Jedi, and I shouldn't have to say much more than that.
2) Developer stupidity.
I'm not sure what Einstien decided that, in a "sci-fi" setting it would be cool, or even make sense to have dragon tissue beef up a laser blaster, for cripes sake, what player who doesn't live in the freaking game could afford this crap?
If it's a player who's interested in PvP at ALL, there's no choice - grind away for the uber expensive, insanely over priced gear, or simply don't participate in PvP, which in SWG is the Galactic Civil War! (Or it was at one point. ;-)
Granted, that's not entirely the fault of the players, as I stated, the developers made some collosally stupid decisions in the crafting system that led to this, but the crafters themselves don't help the matter.
If they hear of someone underselling the 'agreed' upon pricing points, they go buy out his or her inventory and mark it up on their own vendors 3 or 4 HUNDRED percent.
As a casual player who doesn't want to spend 4 hours a day grinding for cash - no thanks. No thanks indeed. That was mt last straw - on a game touted to be "casual player friendly"... my @ss!
That brings me to a point though...
Buffs? Crafting components that buff the item? WTF?
I will never understand why developers spend so much time trying to create balanced and equitable systems only to turn right around and implement additional systems that circumvent the systems they JUST put in place.
Then they complain that they can't keep things balanced because the system is too complex. Well no sh1t moron - you just intentionally broke the d@mn thing.
Grrrrr.
I sincerely hope that some developer out there realizes that a system doesn't have to be "complex" to be interesting and that it really is okay to just provide the player with a selection of abilities and leave it at that. I really would prefer to not have some "meta game" (what a load of cr@p) that really just amounts to grinding for "X" hours just to afford "Y" buff.
How extraordinarily lame.
If your game is solid, people will play. If your systems are solid, people will play. If your content is interesting, people will play. Don't try to prop up a tird with some extraordinarily lame attempts and complexity and call it "content".
Torque Owner Alex Swanson