Reviving the "Roleplaying experience" thread
by Alfred Norris · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 06/05/2005 (11:47 pm) · 110 replies
Wow. I just read the thread down there and it had some interesting throughts. Hopefully people would still like to discuss those issues?
1) Live people playing in-game monsters:
I believe you will see this more and more as long as the finances can support it. The Themis Group (MMO econ think tank) believes that the future of MMOs will be guided excursions.
In our project we are implementing 2 interfaces for GMs (who at release will be my online gaming guild that has 50+ members and plays SB and WoW)
a) An RTS-like interface - so that one person can control in-game mobs with one interface for much more realistic encounters. GM spawns 10 mobs of level 35 next to 6 characters average level 30. They send some mobs for what they think is the leader and scattered mobs for various other players. In the end its real people reacting to what they see.
b) Acting as NPCs - the ability to jump into any NPC and speak, attack, move around as that character. This can lead to highly customized reactions or conversations about a multitude of things. I can see that a GM might have to cook dinner and play at the same time in real life. Ok. Jump into a guard who is patrolling an area. The guard is scripted to move around, but when the GM can be at the computer he sees a player trying to sneak into the control room.
2) Do stats break immersion?:
There's a post about designing MMOs called "Mu's unbelievably long rant about designing MMOs" or something like that. He wrote it several years back and called for a no-stats game. The idea is tempting...but I just dont think it should be done.
a) people will find a way to make their character more powerful
Try as hard as you might to vary xp, randomly change xp based on lvl of mob, location and other factors...some geek is going to sit there with a pad and a pencil and find out that 1000 kills of Mob X = 32 skill points. You will get found out.
b) people LIKE to min/max stats - It lets them feel more in control and that that can really have a good character
c) can you realistically give non-numerical information that is as good?
Ok. So your character limps when his leg is broken and is a pretty good lock pick. But how does a character know that he only has 30 hp left out of 3000? If hes only pretty good at lockpicking...wont he get tired of trying to open an uber-hard safe...and just get frustrated?
Perhaps you can come up with an entire info feedback replacement for numbers, but I feel they are necessary. Besides PnP roleplaying is even MORE mathmatical but you dont hear people saying they roleplay LESS in PnP.
3) Player-run quests:
Im not opposed to this..but most of the examples given could have been fixed by going to the bazaar or teaming up with friends. You dont have the Ogre Staff of Pummelling? Why post a whole quest when you can buy one? (Personally Id rather go get it myself but Im being realistic about how MMO players work) Why post a quest when your buddies will help you get it? To be fair...perhaps you could work out a system where they post a quest that their buddies can accept, which gives more xp than merely going and killing the mob, but there has to be more than that...otherwise its just extra xp for clicking a button. You would need to link it to getting increased faction with the wizard guild (if the quest maker is a wizard) or increased standing in the city nearby.
4) Unreal Gameplay:
Someone spoke of Onslaught gameplay earlier and you must be looking at our game doc ;)
Why dont more MMOs (FPS or not) include UT2K4 gameplay? Assault maps in UT have multiple objectives like quests do. In fact they feel a little more immersive. But they fall flat because planting the bomb is just holding the "E" key down for 10 seconds. Why not link that to an RPG skill to make the whole thing more immersive? Or how about having Invasion gameplay...your clan town is invaded by a nearby religious cult? Or Capture the flag? Youve stolen a virus that the guards want to get back?
1) Live people playing in-game monsters:
I believe you will see this more and more as long as the finances can support it. The Themis Group (MMO econ think tank) believes that the future of MMOs will be guided excursions.
In our project we are implementing 2 interfaces for GMs (who at release will be my online gaming guild that has 50+ members and plays SB and WoW)
a) An RTS-like interface - so that one person can control in-game mobs with one interface for much more realistic encounters. GM spawns 10 mobs of level 35 next to 6 characters average level 30. They send some mobs for what they think is the leader and scattered mobs for various other players. In the end its real people reacting to what they see.
b) Acting as NPCs - the ability to jump into any NPC and speak, attack, move around as that character. This can lead to highly customized reactions or conversations about a multitude of things. I can see that a GM might have to cook dinner and play at the same time in real life. Ok. Jump into a guard who is patrolling an area. The guard is scripted to move around, but when the GM can be at the computer he sees a player trying to sneak into the control room.
2) Do stats break immersion?:
There's a post about designing MMOs called "Mu's unbelievably long rant about designing MMOs" or something like that. He wrote it several years back and called for a no-stats game. The idea is tempting...but I just dont think it should be done.
a) people will find a way to make their character more powerful
Try as hard as you might to vary xp, randomly change xp based on lvl of mob, location and other factors...some geek is going to sit there with a pad and a pencil and find out that 1000 kills of Mob X = 32 skill points. You will get found out.
b) people LIKE to min/max stats - It lets them feel more in control and that that can really have a good character
c) can you realistically give non-numerical information that is as good?
Ok. So your character limps when his leg is broken and is a pretty good lock pick. But how does a character know that he only has 30 hp left out of 3000? If hes only pretty good at lockpicking...wont he get tired of trying to open an uber-hard safe...and just get frustrated?
Perhaps you can come up with an entire info feedback replacement for numbers, but I feel they are necessary. Besides PnP roleplaying is even MORE mathmatical but you dont hear people saying they roleplay LESS in PnP.
3) Player-run quests:
Im not opposed to this..but most of the examples given could have been fixed by going to the bazaar or teaming up with friends. You dont have the Ogre Staff of Pummelling? Why post a whole quest when you can buy one? (Personally Id rather go get it myself but Im being realistic about how MMO players work) Why post a quest when your buddies will help you get it? To be fair...perhaps you could work out a system where they post a quest that their buddies can accept, which gives more xp than merely going and killing the mob, but there has to be more than that...otherwise its just extra xp for clicking a button. You would need to link it to getting increased faction with the wizard guild (if the quest maker is a wizard) or increased standing in the city nearby.
4) Unreal Gameplay:
Someone spoke of Onslaught gameplay earlier and you must be looking at our game doc ;)
Why dont more MMOs (FPS or not) include UT2K4 gameplay? Assault maps in UT have multiple objectives like quests do. In fact they feel a little more immersive. But they fall flat because planting the bomb is just holding the "E" key down for 10 seconds. Why not link that to an RPG skill to make the whole thing more immersive? Or how about having Invasion gameplay...your clan town is invaded by a nearby religious cult? Or Capture the flag? Youve stolen a virus that the guards want to get back?
#42
Tis was supposed to be short, ohwell.
06/30/2005 (2:23 pm)
I have something very small to say. Im a experianced roleplayer, i played alot of them PnP. Ive played 3 which does'nt deal with numbers or even paper except if your wanting to remember what equipment you are carrying. Here is where logic applies, to much damage ill faint, but before that ill go on and get more damaged, sometimes get an adrenaline boost, all according to how i play my character and what the GM decides. And when im to damaged like shot in the legs and can't move I just can't.... This is when we are playing hyperrealistic games even going around "in-game" in our own homelands "that is sweden" And take upon roles. No dice or numbers needed. We just play and have fun. How to roleplay death ? best way is to either die for real and restart but if your not that hardcore of a player or you think its frustating, you fainted, or the like. Tis was supposed to be short, ohwell.
#43
but this thread actually has some good discussion.. i'm impressed :)
06/30/2005 (8:12 pm)
Wow, I casually looked at this thread thinking i'd find mostly the usual "I want to write a game that does ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQURSTUVWXYZ who wants to help?"but this thread actually has some good discussion.. i'm impressed :)
#44
I think another interesting approach to an MMO would be to have a world storyline that the players in the world work through, and which comes to an end and resets after a certain amount of time (a month... 3 months... a year?). Again, this would be much easier to accomplish with smaller servers - but would allow players to craft the flow of the world, watch nations rise and fall based on their interactions - save the world or cover it in darkness - but ultimately, once some sort of resolution had been met, the world would begin again, and a new plot could unfold.
Some variations on this could allow characters to be consistent between resets, or require them to start anew. To make the game more marketable to traditional MMO fans, characters who survived the story arc could move on to another level of gameplay that was more of a traditional MMO "endgame" - a static world witha variety of quests available, but no real point other than to as a chat room where you collect the shiniest armor and weapons.
07/05/2005 (12:23 pm)
Regarding the problem of players having an integral role in the world/making a difference:I think another interesting approach to an MMO would be to have a world storyline that the players in the world work through, and which comes to an end and resets after a certain amount of time (a month... 3 months... a year?). Again, this would be much easier to accomplish with smaller servers - but would allow players to craft the flow of the world, watch nations rise and fall based on their interactions - save the world or cover it in darkness - but ultimately, once some sort of resolution had been met, the world would begin again, and a new plot could unfold.
Some variations on this could allow characters to be consistent between resets, or require them to start anew. To make the game more marketable to traditional MMO fans, characters who survived the story arc could move on to another level of gameplay that was more of a traditional MMO "endgame" - a static world witha variety of quests available, but no real point other than to as a chat room where you collect the shiniest armor and weapons.
#45
And of course there would be infinite potential for expansions as new story arcs or advanced story arcs based on lower level worlds' resolutions were developed and released.
07/05/2005 (12:26 pm)
It would allow you to have a world that was non-persistent - so if you killed off X tribe of orcs, they would actually be gone until the next revision of the world. Small factors could be randomized with each revision, so that each play experience was somewhat different, even if players insisted on playing the same character over and over again.And of course there would be infinite potential for expansions as new story arcs or advanced story arcs based on lower level worlds' resolutions were developed and released.
#46
And so it goes...
There was once terror across the lands. A grand mage who commanded the demons. His prodigy said to be his only weakness.
He was not entirely evil though. At one time, he was the one responsible for holding back the darkness. He was a mage of the highest respect. He was also a loving husband and father of two sons.
Upon his enrollment of protector, he sought the source of the darkness, and with it, his light faded. After all, what better way to raise demons than with he who slayed them.
They mercilessly slaughtered all in their path. No creature could withstand to fight such power and corruption.
His work, almost complete, brought him back to the last sacred place he knew of, his home. He knew of his weakness somewhat, so his plan was to corrupt that which could destroy him - his sons. In the midst of dispute, he slayed his wife, yet his eldest bore witness and ran.
His mother dead, his brother surely dead as well, and his father a corruption beyond his nightmares, he fled to the Mountain Of Fire. He felt he was destined to ashes and lept to his death, wishing only forgiveness for all who lay in his fathers wake.
Yet he did not die. The Gods above recognized him for his spirit, a spirit which was not unlike one they had helped before, his father's. They did know of his destiny, to stop that which his forgiveness spoke of.
They gave him their blessing, one by one, and in their pressance, he bled his soul into something pure, something which could not be corrupt, something so much more powerful than his father.
He was sent forth to cleanse the world, an unstoppable beacon of light to shred the shadows.
His father put up as best his horrible power could and failed at his son's feet. His son, regretfully claimed his fathers soul - though he did not know of what waited. A weeping horror filled the room. From amongst the shadows a man empowered by demons wandered out and wept at his fathers dead body.
The prodigy, bewildered at the sight of his brother could only stare in horror as he was delivered his own fatal blow. The demons, taking over in his brother's rage, hacked apart the prodigy's body.
Then, as the rage calmed amongst the massacre, yet another shadow walked out - a thief of sorts. The demonic one shot out in anger, only to be withheld! The thief then spoke of the past, of his father, and of this man's brother which he had slayed - the prodigy. He then revealed himself and the man wept differently. His demonic body proved no match to his father, he was no equal to his brother's might. Nor was his rage, which was enveloped into submission.
Now, his father was unstoppable. He revitalised the demons throughout the world and sent to them the pieces of the prodigy.
Yet, he did not know the power which they carried.
It is this power that grows every day, waiting for the chance to glow bright again. It is said that those true to themselves can harness such power, and thus, his demons grew.
Now, it is only a matter of time before the forces of evil consume again. They are even more horrible now, empowered by the prodigy. If only they were to lose such artifacts may the world have a chance. Then, if those pieces were to be assembled, tis said that the world could be born anew.
That is the story of our world. May you be the hero who can change it? Only your story may tell.
- Ronixus
07/06/2005 (10:59 am)
@ Alex -And so it goes...
There was once terror across the lands. A grand mage who commanded the demons. His prodigy said to be his only weakness.
He was not entirely evil though. At one time, he was the one responsible for holding back the darkness. He was a mage of the highest respect. He was also a loving husband and father of two sons.
Upon his enrollment of protector, he sought the source of the darkness, and with it, his light faded. After all, what better way to raise demons than with he who slayed them.
They mercilessly slaughtered all in their path. No creature could withstand to fight such power and corruption.
His work, almost complete, brought him back to the last sacred place he knew of, his home. He knew of his weakness somewhat, so his plan was to corrupt that which could destroy him - his sons. In the midst of dispute, he slayed his wife, yet his eldest bore witness and ran.
His mother dead, his brother surely dead as well, and his father a corruption beyond his nightmares, he fled to the Mountain Of Fire. He felt he was destined to ashes and lept to his death, wishing only forgiveness for all who lay in his fathers wake.
Yet he did not die. The Gods above recognized him for his spirit, a spirit which was not unlike one they had helped before, his father's. They did know of his destiny, to stop that which his forgiveness spoke of.
They gave him their blessing, one by one, and in their pressance, he bled his soul into something pure, something which could not be corrupt, something so much more powerful than his father.
He was sent forth to cleanse the world, an unstoppable beacon of light to shred the shadows.
His father put up as best his horrible power could and failed at his son's feet. His son, regretfully claimed his fathers soul - though he did not know of what waited. A weeping horror filled the room. From amongst the shadows a man empowered by demons wandered out and wept at his fathers dead body.
The prodigy, bewildered at the sight of his brother could only stare in horror as he was delivered his own fatal blow. The demons, taking over in his brother's rage, hacked apart the prodigy's body.
Then, as the rage calmed amongst the massacre, yet another shadow walked out - a thief of sorts. The demonic one shot out in anger, only to be withheld! The thief then spoke of the past, of his father, and of this man's brother which he had slayed - the prodigy. He then revealed himself and the man wept differently. His demonic body proved no match to his father, he was no equal to his brother's might. Nor was his rage, which was enveloped into submission.
Now, his father was unstoppable. He revitalised the demons throughout the world and sent to them the pieces of the prodigy.
Yet, he did not know the power which they carried.
It is this power that grows every day, waiting for the chance to glow bright again. It is said that those true to themselves can harness such power, and thus, his demons grew.
Now, it is only a matter of time before the forces of evil consume again. They are even more horrible now, empowered by the prodigy. If only they were to lose such artifacts may the world have a chance. Then, if those pieces were to be assembled, tis said that the world could be born anew.
That is the story of our world. May you be the hero who can change it? Only your story may tell.
- Ronixus
#47
Alex, here's another idea: How about a game that plays at the highest levels as an RTS, with the users being autonomous units tipping the balances of power? It's very close to what you talk about, except for the time scales. Here, I'm talking about a world where you can allow an empire to fall and their characters being made into exiles in their own land. Of course, there would always be an opportunity to reclaim what they lost, with the aid of a balancing system (basically certain bonuses to certain groups to keep it competitive).
What I like about WoW is that most of my skills level themselves with use, which is something I'd often thought about, but never thought acceptable by end users. Of course, seeing it in action changed my mind- so much so that I'm going to give it a run in my project (and it has the nice side effect of being lighter on data transactions because users aren't sitting there adding and subtracting skill points, but rather just viewing them). Getting back to the point, not having to worry about remembering to use your skill/experience/talent points when you get them is a great way to get players to focus on playing the game, rather than playing the numbers.
Obviously, there's still numbers involved, and the players will check those numbers to make sure they can use certain items, and to level those skills if needed. But taking the myriad of clicks out of the players' hands gets them out of the static GUI screen for those skills and back into the game. Where WoW falls short, IMHO, is that you still cannot level your character except through combat, whereas a more pure "skill-based" game would leave the character's progression to depend exclusively on the skills used, enabling those who wish to simply do their professions to do them without having to go level up in combat.
There's light at the end of the tunnel...
07/06/2005 (1:26 pm)
... Ted rises from crypt of long sabatical away from game dev...Quote:I think another interesting approach to an MMO would be to have a world storyline that the players in the world work through, and which comes to an end and resets after a certain amount of time (a month... 3 months... a year?). Again, this would be much easier to accomplish with smaller servers - but would allow players to craft the flow of the world, watch nations rise and fall based on their interactions - save the world or cover it in darkness - but ultimately, once some sort of resolution had been met, the world would begin again, and a new plot could unfold.
Alex, here's another idea: How about a game that plays at the highest levels as an RTS, with the users being autonomous units tipping the balances of power? It's very close to what you talk about, except for the time scales. Here, I'm talking about a world where you can allow an empire to fall and their characters being made into exiles in their own land. Of course, there would always be an opportunity to reclaim what they lost, with the aid of a balancing system (basically certain bonuses to certain groups to keep it competitive).
What I like about WoW is that most of my skills level themselves with use, which is something I'd often thought about, but never thought acceptable by end users. Of course, seeing it in action changed my mind- so much so that I'm going to give it a run in my project (and it has the nice side effect of being lighter on data transactions because users aren't sitting there adding and subtracting skill points, but rather just viewing them). Getting back to the point, not having to worry about remembering to use your skill/experience/talent points when you get them is a great way to get players to focus on playing the game, rather than playing the numbers.
Obviously, there's still numbers involved, and the players will check those numbers to make sure they can use certain items, and to level those skills if needed. But taking the myriad of clicks out of the players' hands gets them out of the static GUI screen for those skills and back into the game. Where WoW falls short, IMHO, is that you still cannot level your character except through combat, whereas a more pure "skill-based" game would leave the character's progression to depend exclusively on the skills used, enabling those who wish to simply do their professions to do them without having to go level up in combat.
There's light at the end of the tunnel...
#48
I don't see what the point in all that was, and I even read it all.
@Ted & Alex
I have thought for some time that progressing from FPS type game play to RTS type game play as players grow in power within the world was a very good way of extending the life and vitality of an mmorpg.
Initially players would have to concentrate on developing their own skills and producing products for sale. With time players will find their products are of sufficient quality that they are profitable. With a strong enough income the player can purchase property and set up shop and sale even more products. Eventually other players are hired and given the task of acquiring necessary materials or producing additional products. At this point the player begins to utilize new interfaces that remove the player from the FPS view and into an RTS command view. Once the player has acquired multiple properties in multiple cities he will have a guiding hand in the progress of the economy. With such power comes the ability to fund production of materials required to support wars, build civic buildings, and generally proceed as most RTS games do.
All of this will require tons of brain storming and careful calculations on spreadsheets. Truly, the designers of such a game will have to have a skilled and intelligent team. After I have acquired enough expertiese in programming I plan on completing the design doc for just such a game.
@Dapo
No, I don't understand what you mean. What is a "simple yet complex array? By "pre-assessed" material do you mean assigning values to the shapes such as saying "this cube is made of iron and weighs this much and is this durable"?
07/07/2005 (1:06 pm)
Quote:And so it goes...
There was once terror across the lands......
I don't see what the point in all that was, and I even read it all.
@Ted & Alex
I have thought for some time that progressing from FPS type game play to RTS type game play as players grow in power within the world was a very good way of extending the life and vitality of an mmorpg.
Initially players would have to concentrate on developing their own skills and producing products for sale. With time players will find their products are of sufficient quality that they are profitable. With a strong enough income the player can purchase property and set up shop and sale even more products. Eventually other players are hired and given the task of acquiring necessary materials or producing additional products. At this point the player begins to utilize new interfaces that remove the player from the FPS view and into an RTS command view. Once the player has acquired multiple properties in multiple cities he will have a guiding hand in the progress of the economy. With such power comes the ability to fund production of materials required to support wars, build civic buildings, and generally proceed as most RTS games do.
All of this will require tons of brain storming and careful calculations on spreadsheets. Truly, the designers of such a game will have to have a skilled and intelligent team. After I have acquired enough expertiese in programming I plan on completing the design doc for just such a game.
@Dapo
Quote:@ Michael -
If you go a step further and provide those primatives as pre-assessed material, then integrate them with a simple yet complex array...
See where I'm at?
No, I don't understand what you mean. What is a "simple yet complex array? By "pre-assessed" material do you mean assigning values to the shapes such as saying "this cube is made of iron and weighs this much and is this durable"?
#49
I think the real question is "how can we put rpg stats behind a natural gui?"
07/07/2005 (1:14 pm)
Also, I dont' understand how stats could be done away with. To me, even Quake is filled with stats. Although the numerical details of each weapon aren't apparant, players spend their first few moments with new weapons gauging how they fare against other weapons - which are more deadly, area of effect, etc. All these are stats hidden behind a gui in such a way that players naturally accept them.I think the real question is "how can we put rpg stats behind a natural gui?"
#50
I think the real question is "how can we put rpg stats behind a natural gui?"
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The weapons in Quake do have stats, but most people have a favorite because of what it does, not necessarily how strong it is. For example, in Half Life (I know it better than Quake), some people like the rocket launcher for its sheer power, while others prefer the homing/self reloading properties of the bee-gun-thingy. Some people prefer the accuracy, firepower and grenade capabilities of the assault rifle.
Now imagine CastleVania: SotN, Metroid, or Zelda, where the way the characters "levels" is more based on the capabilities of their equipment then on their numerical stats. Sure, Alucard's strength can increase, but finding the Crissaegrim or other super powerful weapons are far more helpful. Beating this boss in Metroid may be difficult now, but by exploring and finding more missiles and the Wave Beam I will be able to beat him easier. Or by solving side quests in Zelda I can get new swords which increase my power.
My point is that stats can easily be transparent, by giving the player a varied range of abilities. How about a game where, instead of getting experience points, you get to absorb the souls of your enemies, and by combining them like FF7's materia you can customize your character's strengths, weaknesses and abilities. Or in a less complex system, make the items that you find the main mode of leveling up, similar to what Zelda and Metroid do. Sure, the purists will say "wheres my d20!", but with proper implementation people will see the benefits of a statistic-free system.
07/07/2005 (2:05 pm)
"Also, I dont' understand how stats could be done away with. To me, even Quake is filled with stats. Although the numerical details of each weapon aren't apparant, players spend their first few moments with new weapons gauging how they fare against other weapons - which are more deadly, area of effect, etc. All these are stats hidden behind a gui in such a way that players naturally accept them."I think the real question is "how can we put rpg stats behind a natural gui?"
---------------------------------------
The weapons in Quake do have stats, but most people have a favorite because of what it does, not necessarily how strong it is. For example, in Half Life (I know it better than Quake), some people like the rocket launcher for its sheer power, while others prefer the homing/self reloading properties of the bee-gun-thingy. Some people prefer the accuracy, firepower and grenade capabilities of the assault rifle.
Now imagine CastleVania: SotN, Metroid, or Zelda, where the way the characters "levels" is more based on the capabilities of their equipment then on their numerical stats. Sure, Alucard's strength can increase, but finding the Crissaegrim or other super powerful weapons are far more helpful. Beating this boss in Metroid may be difficult now, but by exploring and finding more missiles and the Wave Beam I will be able to beat him easier. Or by solving side quests in Zelda I can get new swords which increase my power.
My point is that stats can easily be transparent, by giving the player a varied range of abilities. How about a game where, instead of getting experience points, you get to absorb the souls of your enemies, and by combining them like FF7's materia you can customize your character's strengths, weaknesses and abilities. Or in a less complex system, make the items that you find the main mode of leveling up, similar to what Zelda and Metroid do. Sure, the purists will say "wheres my d20!", but with proper implementation people will see the benefits of a statistic-free system.
#51
While I think that this is a fantastic idea in concept, I really don't think that it would work out well in practice. Why? Because unfortunately, people simply cannot be there to micromanage all the time.
There are two human factors to consider: In order to run this sprawling empire, there would contstantly have to be attention given by a player with an RTS interface - not only that, but those players who were being directed by the RTS player would actually have to agree to follow orders.
Now, from my experience with MMOs, the only people who have time to play 24 hours a day - and who therefore could reasonably become and survive as an "overlord" type character are usually middleschoolers or highschoolers on summer vacation. Now, no offense to those in that age group - I know many of you are already competant, intelligent human beings, but it seems to me that a fairly significant number of those people who are able to dedicate that degree of time to MMOs are seriously lacking in the sorts of skills that make for a successful leader.
Secondly, the peons in the equation, if they are in fact also human players, have to follow directions if the system is expected to work out. The last thing you'd need is some griefers intentionaly screwing up all of your assignments.
As a result, I suspect that playing this game would just be frustrating for anyone whos sole intention was not to just irritate others.
Maybe it would be possible to have this gameplay work on a massive scale, but I still think that it is just adding more layers of complexity to a type of game that is already far too complex and time consuming as it stands.
Having said that, I do think that it would be possible to integrate an RPG and RTS experience, I just do not think that it would be possible to do so on the same scale that an MMO does. Having a large portion of your "forces" be NPC controlled would be one solution. Having scheduled times when empire building happens could be another (to prevent the need for contant micro-management).
Imagine an RPG battles game which was semi-massive... in the sense of something like Dynasty Warriors where a handful of PCs participated in each battle with thousands of NPC warriors on each side. A game like that could be set up to allow winning and losing forces to select a path after each battle based on whether they won or lost that would effect the overall world "meta map"
An entire game session - with one empire pulling down another, or what have you, could be played over the course of an afternoon or long evening, making the game a much more sane time commitment.
07/07/2005 (3:15 pm)
Quote:I have thought for some time that progressing from FPS type game play to RTS type game play as players grow in power within the world was a very good way of extending the life and vitality of an mmorpg.
While I think that this is a fantastic idea in concept, I really don't think that it would work out well in practice. Why? Because unfortunately, people simply cannot be there to micromanage all the time.
There are two human factors to consider: In order to run this sprawling empire, there would contstantly have to be attention given by a player with an RTS interface - not only that, but those players who were being directed by the RTS player would actually have to agree to follow orders.
Now, from my experience with MMOs, the only people who have time to play 24 hours a day - and who therefore could reasonably become and survive as an "overlord" type character are usually middleschoolers or highschoolers on summer vacation. Now, no offense to those in that age group - I know many of you are already competant, intelligent human beings, but it seems to me that a fairly significant number of those people who are able to dedicate that degree of time to MMOs are seriously lacking in the sorts of skills that make for a successful leader.
Secondly, the peons in the equation, if they are in fact also human players, have to follow directions if the system is expected to work out. The last thing you'd need is some griefers intentionaly screwing up all of your assignments.
As a result, I suspect that playing this game would just be frustrating for anyone whos sole intention was not to just irritate others.
Maybe it would be possible to have this gameplay work on a massive scale, but I still think that it is just adding more layers of complexity to a type of game that is already far too complex and time consuming as it stands.
Having said that, I do think that it would be possible to integrate an RPG and RTS experience, I just do not think that it would be possible to do so on the same scale that an MMO does. Having a large portion of your "forces" be NPC controlled would be one solution. Having scheduled times when empire building happens could be another (to prevent the need for contant micro-management).
Imagine an RPG battles game which was semi-massive... in the sense of something like Dynasty Warriors where a handful of PCs participated in each battle with thousands of NPC warriors on each side. A game like that could be set up to allow winning and losing forces to select a path after each battle based on whether they won or lost that would effect the overall world "meta map"
An entire game session - with one empire pulling down another, or what have you, could be played over the course of an afternoon or long evening, making the game a much more sane time commitment.
#52
I really like the Zelda/Castlevania method of "leveling" - though having a character be largely defined by their possesions has always seemed a bit strange to me. Perhaps if the players had individualized stats that did not improve after character creation, then they acquired equipment through adventuring? An MMO along the lines of Zelda would be a very interesting concept to explore.
07/07/2005 (3:18 pm)
@ Joe BourrieI really like the Zelda/Castlevania method of "leveling" - though having a character be largely defined by their possesions has always seemed a bit strange to me. Perhaps if the players had individualized stats that did not improve after character creation, then they acquired equipment through adventuring? An MMO along the lines of Zelda would be a very interesting concept to explore.
#53
This is a scene in Phnatasy Srat Online Blue Burst too. The offical forums are chocked full of irrate players bitching loud and long about Sega not releasing everything right from the beginning. They are releasing things slowly over time. Why bitch ? Cause these players who spend 4-8 hours a day on PSOBB are already far in advance ready for the new more difficult content to be released and are bored with not having the top of the iceberg to play on.
So from these two points I have gathered myself that a MMO that looks to truely redefine needs to have a mix of both cattering to hardcores (like many MMOs do) and casual (like PSOBB can easily be done with).
And, again, I dont claim to know how to do this ;)
07/07/2005 (3:59 pm)
... one of the things I would always like to emphasize to new MMO-esque projects is not to forget to remember and deliberately target in some way the casual gamer. Like myself, I would love to get back into Ultima Online. Love it. However, since I can only play my select game about 2 hours a day maximum, I dont have the time to compete with the big players and would forever be in the grasp of mediocrity (or use macros set on a timer, which I refuse to do).This is a scene in Phnatasy Srat Online Blue Burst too. The offical forums are chocked full of irrate players bitching loud and long about Sega not releasing everything right from the beginning. They are releasing things slowly over time. Why bitch ? Cause these players who spend 4-8 hours a day on PSOBB are already far in advance ready for the new more difficult content to be released and are bored with not having the top of the iceberg to play on.
So from these two points I have gathered myself that a MMO that looks to truely redefine needs to have a mix of both cattering to hardcores (like many MMOs do) and casual (like PSOBB can easily be done with).
And, again, I dont claim to know how to do this ;)
#54
It is strange for a character to be defined by their posessions, but not so strange to be defined by their abilities. Superheroes have been entirely built on this concept.
I'm not saying "I got a bigger sword, now I'm stronger". I'm saying "I can turn into a bat", "I can shoot webbing from my wrist", "I can jump super high", "I can summon a huge sword that can smite multiple foes in one slash", "I can draw power from the elements nearby and use them to cast spells", "I can control the weather", "I can run super fast", etc.
The idea I am trying to get across is that a player who continues to get new abilities throughout the game will feel like they are getting much more powerful than just a simple number increase. It also keeps the game fresh throughout, and keeps the player learning new and different things.
This idea, done poorly, can still be bad. For example, many of the N64 platformers relied on getting more and more complex techniques, until you had to memorize a hundred different button combos to complete the later levels. But if balanced correctly and well paced, this "leveling" system can be far more rewarding than just getting stronger.
07/07/2005 (4:16 pm)
"I really like the Zelda/Castlevania method of "leveling" - though having a character be largely defined by their possesions has always seemed a bit strange to me."It is strange for a character to be defined by their posessions, but not so strange to be defined by their abilities. Superheroes have been entirely built on this concept.
I'm not saying "I got a bigger sword, now I'm stronger". I'm saying "I can turn into a bat", "I can shoot webbing from my wrist", "I can jump super high", "I can summon a huge sword that can smite multiple foes in one slash", "I can draw power from the elements nearby and use them to cast spells", "I can control the weather", "I can run super fast", etc.
The idea I am trying to get across is that a player who continues to get new abilities throughout the game will feel like they are getting much more powerful than just a simple number increase. It also keeps the game fresh throughout, and keeps the player learning new and different things.
This idea, done poorly, can still be bad. For example, many of the N64 platformers relied on getting more and more complex techniques, until you had to memorize a hundred different button combos to complete the later levels. But if balanced correctly and well paced, this "leveling" system can be far more rewarding than just getting stronger.
#55
It was created from the begining to do just what he suggested.
Basicly, there are several key artifacts that, when all collected and assembled, will evolve the game into a new era. Collecting any of them will be a challenge in itself. After collecting these, players will gain extraordinary abilities while they possess the artifact(s) and also become a target to anyone in search of them - opening new quests which focus on that particular player!
@ Michael -
Arrays are data referances used in programs. By setting up pre-defined arrays of all possible 'pieces' and their uses (assembling properties), you could easily supply a wide and varied arrangement of parts for use in the manufacturing of items and objects in the game while minimizing the effects of persistent data (ie - it's still there, just not being used). This could be done with just about any type of game object for maximum customization by players without it being truely created by them.
More like:
newItem = itemAssembly(parts(a,b,...,y,z),material(a,b,...,y,z))
Parts = (pre-assessed, context sensitive pieces)
Material = (type; data associated with type)
...And, based on the context of the item (it's specified use) and what is put into it (the attributes of the material), we would get the calculated properties of that item based on a preset system.
It's easier to code than to describe I guess, lol! Once you've become familiar with programming, you can see how it could be done.
On any event, the item will have properties that can enhance the character without adding to their abilities, though magic may effect ability (hence adding to the attributes of an item even more).
Starts simple, then gets complicated.
I'll try and get some examples fleshed out for you so you can see how everything would work together as I see it.
- Ronixus
07/07/2005 (9:07 pm)
The above was a basic outline of the story I've worked on for Infinity (MMORPG). I posted it in referance to this from Alex:Quote:
I think another interesting approach to an MMO would be to have a world storyline that the players in the world work through, and which comes to an end and resets after a certain amount of time...
It was created from the begining to do just what he suggested.
Basicly, there are several key artifacts that, when all collected and assembled, will evolve the game into a new era. Collecting any of them will be a challenge in itself. After collecting these, players will gain extraordinary abilities while they possess the artifact(s) and also become a target to anyone in search of them - opening new quests which focus on that particular player!
@ Michael -
Quote:
What is a "simple yet complex array?
Arrays are data referances used in programs. By setting up pre-defined arrays of all possible 'pieces' and their uses (assembling properties), you could easily supply a wide and varied arrangement of parts for use in the manufacturing of items and objects in the game while minimizing the effects of persistent data (ie - it's still there, just not being used). This could be done with just about any type of game object for maximum customization by players without it being truely created by them.
Quote:
By "pre-assessed" material do you mean assigning values to the shapes such as saying "this cube is made of iron and weighs this much and is this durable"?
More like:
newItem = itemAssembly(parts(a,b,...,y,z),material(a,b,...,y,z))
Parts = (pre-assessed, context sensitive pieces)
Material = (type; data associated with type)
...And, based on the context of the item (it's specified use) and what is put into it (the attributes of the material), we would get the calculated properties of that item based on a preset system.
It's easier to code than to describe I guess, lol! Once you've become familiar with programming, you can see how it could be done.
On any event, the item will have properties that can enhance the character without adding to their abilities, though magic may effect ability (hence adding to the attributes of an item even more).
Starts simple, then gets complicated.
I'll try and get some examples fleshed out for you so you can see how everything would work together as I see it.
- Ronixus
#56
I'd like to reiterate one major point about what made classic RPGs so much fun: plot. Plot plot plot.
MMOs will never be able to have the sort of lovingly crafted plot that a single player RPG can because there are simply too many people interacting with the story. Even with the suggestion/example I gave of Neverwinter Nights it is very difficult to get a really compelling plot unless you are playing with a very talented and dedicaed group of people (especially the GMs).
Unfortunately, traditional PRGs seem to have declined in popularity over the years with the introduction of these fancy multiplayer things... how would it be possible to geet a truly well crafted plot that would impact every person in a game world, not just a few high-level movers and shakers? Can it be done?
07/08/2005 (2:09 pm)
@Christopher: I think that where you are going is apparent, I don't think we need to get too in depth on any particular game design documents. I'd like to get back to the topic if anyone has any more general ideas for the RPG experience (though we've covered quite a few cool ones.)I'd like to reiterate one major point about what made classic RPGs so much fun: plot. Plot plot plot.
MMOs will never be able to have the sort of lovingly crafted plot that a single player RPG can because there are simply too many people interacting with the story. Even with the suggestion/example I gave of Neverwinter Nights it is very difficult to get a really compelling plot unless you are playing with a very talented and dedicaed group of people (especially the GMs).
Unfortunately, traditional PRGs seem to have declined in popularity over the years with the introduction of these fancy multiplayer things... how would it be possible to geet a truly well crafted plot that would impact every person in a game world, not just a few high-level movers and shakers? Can it be done?
#57
Hmmm. Let me think on this one. I still owe Michael Brewer his counterarguement too (just havent taken time to type it out). Being a Dungeonmaster of going on 17 years I have managed some deep all-effecting fiction for my player characters -- I will see what of anything I might think of for this sort of thing. Storywise I know I could come up with plenty, but in MMORPGs and games as a whole there are those technical limitations to be considered (a Final Fantasy 6 storyline comes to mind ... redrawing a two dimensional map when Kefka has taken over isnt a big deal ... having two seperate multi-zone three dimensional worlds modelled, pre-Kefka and post-Kefka, would be an undertaking I dont think anyone should try).
07/08/2005 (2:24 pm)
Quote:Unfortunately, traditional PRGs seem to have declined in popularity over the years with the introduction of these fancy multiplayer things... how would it be possible to geet a truly well crafted plot that would impact every person in a game world, not just a few high-level movers and shakers? Can it be done?
Hmmm. Let me think on this one. I still owe Michael Brewer his counterarguement too (just havent taken time to type it out). Being a Dungeonmaster of going on 17 years I have managed some deep all-effecting fiction for my player characters -- I will see what of anything I might think of for this sort of thing. Storywise I know I could come up with plenty, but in MMORPGs and games as a whole there are those technical limitations to be considered (a Final Fantasy 6 storyline comes to mind ... redrawing a two dimensional map when Kefka has taken over isnt a big deal ... having two seperate multi-zone three dimensional worlds modelled, pre-Kefka and post-Kefka, would be an undertaking I dont think anyone should try).
#58
- War - Wood Elves vs. Orcs -
Chapter 1.
Description - Orcs raid Wood Elf villages and hunting grounds
How the Player's Interact -
1. Orcs attack players on hunting and questing grounds.
2. Depending on how successful they are, they then get closer to the cities (as well as depending on how well the player fend them off).
3. The cities are seiged (which could affect trade routes, a number of quests could spawn from this - like loved ones being within and hiring players out to break them out, or sneak them out etc, many things... this also makes it dangerous for a player to travel to this city, they might need to for a quest).
4. Then have a number of tasks that must be taken upon by the player talking with the right NPC at the right time (numerous NPCs and ways though)... The result being Players attempting to destroy the seige forces. A lot of plot driven quests could then be spun, like betrayers to the orcs, orcs that want to help the wood elves, etc, only limited by the skill of the designer.
5. Once certain key quests are done (and possibly a certain number of orcs are killed)... the orcs retreat back to there homes (caves, fortresses, etc)
Chapter 2
Description - Wood Elves send forces to attack the Orcs
How the Player's Interact -
1. Could be a few hostage rescue quests depending on how far the orcs made it to the city, dynamic interactions like that then spawn rescue quests like this (these type of things could take time but I could imagine some pretty fun and dynamic quests resulting from it).
2. Different ways for Players to aid the Wood Elves (maybe even have a number of quests involving non-wood elves that normally could accomplish a quest involving a wood elf in the city, now they must aid the wood elf cause to earn trust or to earn the next step, this would be something a bit dynamic put in a normally predictable quest).
3. Once a certain number of required quests are acheived (like orc infiltrations, bases taken over, orc leaders killed, fortifications overwhelmed as well as all of this maintained.. making the positions able to change, with orcs constantly trying to gain back on the war - balancing will be an issue since players can only be on so often, maybe have events like the orcs counter striking based off of online player population etc).
etc etc etc...
Just an example of some ideas... all of this could be intertwined with a very dynamic story involving numerous possiblities, for example... if a player takes on a betrayal quest and let orcs sneak in, or assinates a wood elf, etc... Some good designers and writers could make some good plot lines.
07/08/2005 (2:51 pm)
Plot line- War - Wood Elves vs. Orcs -
Chapter 1.
Description - Orcs raid Wood Elf villages and hunting grounds
How the Player's Interact -
1. Orcs attack players on hunting and questing grounds.
2. Depending on how successful they are, they then get closer to the cities (as well as depending on how well the player fend them off).
3. The cities are seiged (which could affect trade routes, a number of quests could spawn from this - like loved ones being within and hiring players out to break them out, or sneak them out etc, many things... this also makes it dangerous for a player to travel to this city, they might need to for a quest).
4. Then have a number of tasks that must be taken upon by the player talking with the right NPC at the right time (numerous NPCs and ways though)... The result being Players attempting to destroy the seige forces. A lot of plot driven quests could then be spun, like betrayers to the orcs, orcs that want to help the wood elves, etc, only limited by the skill of the designer.
5. Once certain key quests are done (and possibly a certain number of orcs are killed)... the orcs retreat back to there homes (caves, fortresses, etc)
Chapter 2
Description - Wood Elves send forces to attack the Orcs
How the Player's Interact -
1. Could be a few hostage rescue quests depending on how far the orcs made it to the city, dynamic interactions like that then spawn rescue quests like this (these type of things could take time but I could imagine some pretty fun and dynamic quests resulting from it).
2. Different ways for Players to aid the Wood Elves (maybe even have a number of quests involving non-wood elves that normally could accomplish a quest involving a wood elf in the city, now they must aid the wood elf cause to earn trust or to earn the next step, this would be something a bit dynamic put in a normally predictable quest).
3. Once a certain number of required quests are acheived (like orc infiltrations, bases taken over, orc leaders killed, fortifications overwhelmed as well as all of this maintained.. making the positions able to change, with orcs constantly trying to gain back on the war - balancing will be an issue since players can only be on so often, maybe have events like the orcs counter striking based off of online player population etc).
etc etc etc...
Just an example of some ideas... all of this could be intertwined with a very dynamic story involving numerous possiblities, for example... if a player takes on a betrayal quest and let orcs sneak in, or assinates a wood elf, etc... Some good designers and writers could make some good plot lines.
#59
1) If it is something that goes away once it is complete, only a few people get to actually feel like they are participating in the plot before they finish it and no one else gets to partake, or hundreds mob the event, making it total mayhem not at all resembling a plot.
2) If it is a persistent series of quests ala WoW, everyone gets to do them, but you are aware of the fact that "finishing the quest" doesn't actually finish anything, as the mobs will all be respawning in 10 minutes for the next player group, and the "war" itself just doesn't have any effect on the world in the long run, so it creates a sense of artificial plot that painfully exposes the fact that the world is very static and you'll never have any real impact.
3) If the quests are instanced off, you might get be able to make the player feel accomplished (though it is still unlikely to effect the world as a whole), but it largely defeats the purpose of a "massive" RPG and is one step toward a small server type game as mentioned above.
Again the problem of having a "world of heroes" rears its head. How many novels have you read or movies have you watched where every single character (of thousands) in the film is a compelling protagonist, all at the same time? The basic structure of archetypes required to make a good storyline - particularly a heroic storyline - requires focus on a small group of central protagonists. Nobody wants to pay $15 a month to play an extra or a set piece. I would like to think that it is possible to strike a balance and still keep the massive aspect of such games, but I just don't know if that is the case.
07/08/2005 (4:20 pm)
@Matthew: the problem is that this is very similar to the way that many MMOs currently operate (WoW comes to mind) - but because there are hundreds of players all trying to do these quests simulaneously, one of three things happen:1) If it is something that goes away once it is complete, only a few people get to actually feel like they are participating in the plot before they finish it and no one else gets to partake, or hundreds mob the event, making it total mayhem not at all resembling a plot.
2) If it is a persistent series of quests ala WoW, everyone gets to do them, but you are aware of the fact that "finishing the quest" doesn't actually finish anything, as the mobs will all be respawning in 10 minutes for the next player group, and the "war" itself just doesn't have any effect on the world in the long run, so it creates a sense of artificial plot that painfully exposes the fact that the world is very static and you'll never have any real impact.
3) If the quests are instanced off, you might get be able to make the player feel accomplished (though it is still unlikely to effect the world as a whole), but it largely defeats the purpose of a "massive" RPG and is one step toward a small server type game as mentioned above.
Again the problem of having a "world of heroes" rears its head. How many novels have you read or movies have you watched where every single character (of thousands) in the film is a compelling protagonist, all at the same time? The basic structure of archetypes required to make a good storyline - particularly a heroic storyline - requires focus on a small group of central protagonists. Nobody wants to pay $15 a month to play an extra or a set piece. I would like to think that it is possible to strike a balance and still keep the massive aspect of such games, but I just don't know if that is the case.
#60
07/08/2005 (4:24 pm)
@Matthew: I do however, think that the sort of progression you suggested would be great for a smaller scale, limited time frame game design (obviously I really like this approach, though I don't think that it is as profitable as a classic MMO) 
Torque Owner Christopher Dapo
If you go a step further and provide those primatives as pre-assessed material, then integrate them with a simple yet complex array...
See where I'm at?
@ Paul -
Which is why, since 8 years ago, I've planned the integrated story, the full interaction, the dillemas, and a system which allows a satisfactory range of choices.
Believe me when I say I'm someone who prefers to solve dillemas creatively! You'll be able to say,"Let's try this..." and get rewarded for thinking outside the norm.
@ Peter -
I've thought about the death issue extensively, and though, at first, many might not agree, I think it should be permanent, though with the heightened moral value applied to the act. Also, if a character dies, their predacessor would be able to continue in their footsteps, which would lessen the effect. Still, the fact that I plan to integrate magic and religion could also lessen the burden.
I think the hardest part to visualize in my plans is a universal health system which gives everything (PCs and NPCs) a set amount of health, reguardless. This don't mean that you can't lessen the effects of losing it though, which balances it out effectively.
- Ronixus