Reviving the "Roleplaying experience" thread
by Alfred Norris · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 06/05/2005 (11:47 pm) · 110 replies
Wow. I just read the thread down there and it had some interesting throughts. Hopefully people would still like to discuss those issues?
1) Live people playing in-game monsters:
I believe you will see this more and more as long as the finances can support it. The Themis Group (MMO econ think tank) believes that the future of MMOs will be guided excursions.
In our project we are implementing 2 interfaces for GMs (who at release will be my online gaming guild that has 50+ members and plays SB and WoW)
a) An RTS-like interface - so that one person can control in-game mobs with one interface for much more realistic encounters. GM spawns 10 mobs of level 35 next to 6 characters average level 30. They send some mobs for what they think is the leader and scattered mobs for various other players. In the end its real people reacting to what they see.
b) Acting as NPCs - the ability to jump into any NPC and speak, attack, move around as that character. This can lead to highly customized reactions or conversations about a multitude of things. I can see that a GM might have to cook dinner and play at the same time in real life. Ok. Jump into a guard who is patrolling an area. The guard is scripted to move around, but when the GM can be at the computer he sees a player trying to sneak into the control room.
2) Do stats break immersion?:
There's a post about designing MMOs called "Mu's unbelievably long rant about designing MMOs" or something like that. He wrote it several years back and called for a no-stats game. The idea is tempting...but I just dont think it should be done.
a) people will find a way to make their character more powerful
Try as hard as you might to vary xp, randomly change xp based on lvl of mob, location and other factors...some geek is going to sit there with a pad and a pencil and find out that 1000 kills of Mob X = 32 skill points. You will get found out.
b) people LIKE to min/max stats - It lets them feel more in control and that that can really have a good character
c) can you realistically give non-numerical information that is as good?
Ok. So your character limps when his leg is broken and is a pretty good lock pick. But how does a character know that he only has 30 hp left out of 3000? If hes only pretty good at lockpicking...wont he get tired of trying to open an uber-hard safe...and just get frustrated?
Perhaps you can come up with an entire info feedback replacement for numbers, but I feel they are necessary. Besides PnP roleplaying is even MORE mathmatical but you dont hear people saying they roleplay LESS in PnP.
3) Player-run quests:
Im not opposed to this..but most of the examples given could have been fixed by going to the bazaar or teaming up with friends. You dont have the Ogre Staff of Pummelling? Why post a whole quest when you can buy one? (Personally Id rather go get it myself but Im being realistic about how MMO players work) Why post a quest when your buddies will help you get it? To be fair...perhaps you could work out a system where they post a quest that their buddies can accept, which gives more xp than merely going and killing the mob, but there has to be more than that...otherwise its just extra xp for clicking a button. You would need to link it to getting increased faction with the wizard guild (if the quest maker is a wizard) or increased standing in the city nearby.
4) Unreal Gameplay:
Someone spoke of Onslaught gameplay earlier and you must be looking at our game doc ;)
Why dont more MMOs (FPS or not) include UT2K4 gameplay? Assault maps in UT have multiple objectives like quests do. In fact they feel a little more immersive. But they fall flat because planting the bomb is just holding the "E" key down for 10 seconds. Why not link that to an RPG skill to make the whole thing more immersive? Or how about having Invasion gameplay...your clan town is invaded by a nearby religious cult? Or Capture the flag? Youve stolen a virus that the guards want to get back?
1) Live people playing in-game monsters:
I believe you will see this more and more as long as the finances can support it. The Themis Group (MMO econ think tank) believes that the future of MMOs will be guided excursions.
In our project we are implementing 2 interfaces for GMs (who at release will be my online gaming guild that has 50+ members and plays SB and WoW)
a) An RTS-like interface - so that one person can control in-game mobs with one interface for much more realistic encounters. GM spawns 10 mobs of level 35 next to 6 characters average level 30. They send some mobs for what they think is the leader and scattered mobs for various other players. In the end its real people reacting to what they see.
b) Acting as NPCs - the ability to jump into any NPC and speak, attack, move around as that character. This can lead to highly customized reactions or conversations about a multitude of things. I can see that a GM might have to cook dinner and play at the same time in real life. Ok. Jump into a guard who is patrolling an area. The guard is scripted to move around, but when the GM can be at the computer he sees a player trying to sneak into the control room.
2) Do stats break immersion?:
There's a post about designing MMOs called "Mu's unbelievably long rant about designing MMOs" or something like that. He wrote it several years back and called for a no-stats game. The idea is tempting...but I just dont think it should be done.
a) people will find a way to make their character more powerful
Try as hard as you might to vary xp, randomly change xp based on lvl of mob, location and other factors...some geek is going to sit there with a pad and a pencil and find out that 1000 kills of Mob X = 32 skill points. You will get found out.
b) people LIKE to min/max stats - It lets them feel more in control and that that can really have a good character
c) can you realistically give non-numerical information that is as good?
Ok. So your character limps when his leg is broken and is a pretty good lock pick. But how does a character know that he only has 30 hp left out of 3000? If hes only pretty good at lockpicking...wont he get tired of trying to open an uber-hard safe...and just get frustrated?
Perhaps you can come up with an entire info feedback replacement for numbers, but I feel they are necessary. Besides PnP roleplaying is even MORE mathmatical but you dont hear people saying they roleplay LESS in PnP.
3) Player-run quests:
Im not opposed to this..but most of the examples given could have been fixed by going to the bazaar or teaming up with friends. You dont have the Ogre Staff of Pummelling? Why post a whole quest when you can buy one? (Personally Id rather go get it myself but Im being realistic about how MMO players work) Why post a quest when your buddies will help you get it? To be fair...perhaps you could work out a system where they post a quest that their buddies can accept, which gives more xp than merely going and killing the mob, but there has to be more than that...otherwise its just extra xp for clicking a button. You would need to link it to getting increased faction with the wizard guild (if the quest maker is a wizard) or increased standing in the city nearby.
4) Unreal Gameplay:
Someone spoke of Onslaught gameplay earlier and you must be looking at our game doc ;)
Why dont more MMOs (FPS or not) include UT2K4 gameplay? Assault maps in UT have multiple objectives like quests do. In fact they feel a little more immersive. But they fall flat because planting the bomb is just holding the "E" key down for 10 seconds. Why not link that to an RPG skill to make the whole thing more immersive? Or how about having Invasion gameplay...your clan town is invaded by a nearby religious cult? Or Capture the flag? Youve stolen a virus that the guards want to get back?
#2
Not if there is no skill points to accumulate.
Absolutely! You tell me there's a numerical value for everything you could learn and I'll show you a simple mind.
No, it's much less, but it's also something most RP'ers could do without. I can remember a thousand times when having to go to the numbers dropped the excitement of the experience. Try a game like the original Legend Of The Five Rings and then tell me numbers are needed much. They do without them very well.
Besides, when was the last time you valued yourself as a number other than 1? You could value a responsible or respectable position, or a level of knowledge, just as easily.
The 'system' isn't just taking away the immersion, it's entirely unrealistic in so many ways.
But hey, you're doing your thing, and all the rest sound good, so don't mind me. Good luck!
- Ronixus
06/07/2005 (7:29 pm)
Quote:
Try as hard as you might to vary xp, randomly change xp based on lvl of mob, location and other factors...some geek is going to sit there with a pad and a pencil and find out that 1000 kills of Mob X = 32 skill points. You will get found out.
Not if there is no skill points to accumulate.
Quote:
c) can you realistically give non-numerical information that is as good?
Absolutely! You tell me there's a numerical value for everything you could learn and I'll show you a simple mind.
Quote:
Perhaps you can come up with an entire info feedback replacement for numbers, but I feel they are necessary. Besides PnP roleplaying is even MORE mathmatical but you dont hear people saying they roleplay LESS in PnP.
No, it's much less, but it's also something most RP'ers could do without. I can remember a thousand times when having to go to the numbers dropped the excitement of the experience. Try a game like the original Legend Of The Five Rings and then tell me numbers are needed much. They do without them very well.
Besides, when was the last time you valued yourself as a number other than 1? You could value a responsible or respectable position, or a level of knowledge, just as easily.
The 'system' isn't just taking away the immersion, it's entirely unrealistic in so many ways.
But hey, you're doing your thing, and all the rest sound good, so don't mind me. Good luck!
- Ronixus
#3
Sounds good. But you might as well just have a MMORPG where people can play as monsters.
The "control a mob" idea is interesting though...
2)
You might as well have stats in a video game. If you don't want to see them, just don't have a status screen or any other way to display the stats. Without any way to display stats, the player won't know they're there.
Without stats that get displayed, character development will have to be based on items or something. Or it could be non-existant. But if there's no character development, alot of people wouldn't want to play. A MMORPG would essentially be a chat room with monsters. A single player game would be an action game (or a poor facsimile of one) with Npcs you can talk to.
3)
In what respect is this different from downloading a player-created scenario? What does the player "running" the quest do?
4)
There were RPGs that used the Doom and Quake engines. The same could be done with the Unreal Tournament engine and probably has been if it's possible to license the UT engine.
The problem with such RPGs is that they feel more like FPSs than RPGs.
5)
Sounds good, but I'd be surprised if MMORPGs don't have that already.
I remember I played Runescape briefly, and some guy gave me a bunch of stuff to hold for a minute. I couldn't figure out how to give it back, and he was annoyed.
06/07/2005 (8:08 pm)
1)Sounds good. But you might as well just have a MMORPG where people can play as monsters.
The "control a mob" idea is interesting though...
2)
You might as well have stats in a video game. If you don't want to see them, just don't have a status screen or any other way to display the stats. Without any way to display stats, the player won't know they're there.
Without stats that get displayed, character development will have to be based on items or something. Or it could be non-existant. But if there's no character development, alot of people wouldn't want to play. A MMORPG would essentially be a chat room with monsters. A single player game would be an action game (or a poor facsimile of one) with Npcs you can talk to.
3)
In what respect is this different from downloading a player-created scenario? What does the player "running" the quest do?
4)
There were RPGs that used the Doom and Quake engines. The same could be done with the Unreal Tournament engine and probably has been if it's possible to license the UT engine.
The problem with such RPGs is that they feel more like FPSs than RPGs.
5)
Sounds good, but I'd be surprised if MMORPGs don't have that already.
I remember I played Runescape briefly, and some guy gave me a bunch of stuff to hold for a minute. I couldn't figure out how to give it back, and he was annoyed.
#4
Vince
06/07/2005 (8:25 pm)
If all people did was log in and pick a npc to play and play it then their would be a sense of disconnection from the game which could negitively affect the subscriptions.. interesting concept non the less.Vince
#5
Very few people (read: 13 year olds who have nothing to do but play all day and night) get the experience of being among the power elite in any MMO. Eveyone else is just some average Joe trying to accomplish the same quests to get the same gear and the same next level as everybody else. They try to make you feel like heroes, but it just give the world a tacky, dull feeling. You might as well be roleplaying the town baker for all your uniqueness as Night Elf Hunter #348709.
In my opinion the best online roleplaying game yet release is Neverwinter Nights. Why?
Because using the DM module, I can create an extensive world for players to explore, with tons of NPCs - I can dynamically create new encounters or "posess" any NPC in the world to interact with my players.
All this is very cool... but what really makes it great is that it is so small scale. I believe the max players per server is something like... 64 or so. Most games, like PnP RPG sessions have 6 or fewer players.
So, every single PC in the world can get a personalized experience, as long as you have a competant DM - just like PnP RPGs, but with all of the stat tracking taken care of. You actually feel like you make a difference in the world because the world is, in fact, created for you by a real person who is aware of everything your party accomplishes, and who causes the world to react accordingly.
Ultimately, the way to make MMOs good is to take "Massive" out of the equation.
06/08/2005 (12:38 pm)
In my opinion, the core problem with the MMO experience is that everyone in the world is a hero. What players want is what classic RPGs offer - the ability to feel like the quests you accomplish and the advancement of your character has some major impact on a larger plot in the world.Very few people (read: 13 year olds who have nothing to do but play all day and night) get the experience of being among the power elite in any MMO. Eveyone else is just some average Joe trying to accomplish the same quests to get the same gear and the same next level as everybody else. They try to make you feel like heroes, but it just give the world a tacky, dull feeling. You might as well be roleplaying the town baker for all your uniqueness as Night Elf Hunter #348709.
In my opinion the best online roleplaying game yet release is Neverwinter Nights. Why?
Because using the DM module, I can create an extensive world for players to explore, with tons of NPCs - I can dynamically create new encounters or "posess" any NPC in the world to interact with my players.
All this is very cool... but what really makes it great is that it is so small scale. I believe the max players per server is something like... 64 or so. Most games, like PnP RPG sessions have 6 or fewer players.
So, every single PC in the world can get a personalized experience, as long as you have a competant DM - just like PnP RPGs, but with all of the stat tracking taken care of. You actually feel like you make a difference in the world because the world is, in fact, created for you by a real person who is aware of everything your party accomplishes, and who causes the world to react accordingly.
Ultimately, the way to make MMOs good is to take "Massive" out of the equation.
#6
06/08/2005 (2:01 pm)
I don't have time to make an impressive post, but I believe Alex is right on each point. I don't think I could have said it any better myself.
#7
Do players really want to feel like they are world saving heros? (My favorite quote comes from the old cartoon Tick "Where have you been?!" "I just got back from saving the world." "I doubt it. Can you prove that?" "Well... You're still here aren't you?!") Just take a look at the game Sims. Although the game isn't normally considered an RPG, I have always thought there was a very strong connection between Sims and RPGs and it can serve to reveal potential avenues of game play. With the only real difference being that players are responsible for multiple characters simultaneously instead of just a single character at any given, we can consider that the player's character(s) in the Sims are all 100% mundane yet they do a good job at maintaining the player's role playing interests. Most of this comes from the struggle that is required for the characters to gain any little thing; every gain is a real accomplishment.
Utilizing this sort of game play for an MMORPG could instill a new breed of role play. Currently players roam and explore the world nearly uninhibited. Combat is pratically flavorless and nearly all macroing. I think we need to begin finding the game play in "mundane" characters.
For example, imagine a simple soldier in an ancient Roman army. In the current standard MMORPG you would expect to see the player running the character around, fighting countless monsters and bandits, literally slaying entire legions worth of mobs by the time they reach a modest level and are well on the way to min-maxing every skill. What might the game be like if a semi-realistic life was implemented?
1. True, life threatening battle/combat would not be an every day occurance. If real combat was rare and imposed serious consaquences then it would be held in great regard for the adrenaline rush it would instill. This of course requires two major cavets to protect the player and ensure fun game play.
*Players must be able to practice and develop their combat skills outside of real combat. The practice experience should be entertaining and fulfilling in its own right. Possibly similar to an arena with wooden and nerf weapons.
*Skills should not be simple numbers that allow the player's macros to become more effective. Instead, each individual combat action should require a sequence of key presses. Only after performing each action successfully and gaining experience after much use can new, stronger actions be learned. This is just like any normal fighting game where the players mash the buttons to punch, kick, jump, etc. This allows novice players to pose a signifant threat without knowing much (just mash the keys!), and advanced players to utilize proper technique to be frighteningly effective. This system would require much play testing and extream caution with the creation of attacks and defences. Care must be taken not to create worthless actions or uber-powerful actions.
*Players must be fully informed of the difference between real combat and practice and be vividly aware when they are in real combat mode instead of normal practice.
06/08/2005 (3:32 pm)
@Alex: You've got some very excellent points and I almost completely agree with you. However, I'm not sure if "Massive" really does need to be removed from the equation. Infact, it probably needs to be emphasized.Do players really want to feel like they are world saving heros? (My favorite quote comes from the old cartoon Tick "Where have you been?!" "I just got back from saving the world." "I doubt it. Can you prove that?" "Well... You're still here aren't you?!") Just take a look at the game Sims. Although the game isn't normally considered an RPG, I have always thought there was a very strong connection between Sims and RPGs and it can serve to reveal potential avenues of game play. With the only real difference being that players are responsible for multiple characters simultaneously instead of just a single character at any given, we can consider that the player's character(s) in the Sims are all 100% mundane yet they do a good job at maintaining the player's role playing interests. Most of this comes from the struggle that is required for the characters to gain any little thing; every gain is a real accomplishment.
Utilizing this sort of game play for an MMORPG could instill a new breed of role play. Currently players roam and explore the world nearly uninhibited. Combat is pratically flavorless and nearly all macroing. I think we need to begin finding the game play in "mundane" characters.
For example, imagine a simple soldier in an ancient Roman army. In the current standard MMORPG you would expect to see the player running the character around, fighting countless monsters and bandits, literally slaying entire legions worth of mobs by the time they reach a modest level and are well on the way to min-maxing every skill. What might the game be like if a semi-realistic life was implemented?
1. True, life threatening battle/combat would not be an every day occurance. If real combat was rare and imposed serious consaquences then it would be held in great regard for the adrenaline rush it would instill. This of course requires two major cavets to protect the player and ensure fun game play.
*Players must be able to practice and develop their combat skills outside of real combat. The practice experience should be entertaining and fulfilling in its own right. Possibly similar to an arena with wooden and nerf weapons.
*Skills should not be simple numbers that allow the player's macros to become more effective. Instead, each individual combat action should require a sequence of key presses. Only after performing each action successfully and gaining experience after much use can new, stronger actions be learned. This is just like any normal fighting game where the players mash the buttons to punch, kick, jump, etc. This allows novice players to pose a signifant threat without knowing much (just mash the keys!), and advanced players to utilize proper technique to be frighteningly effective. This system would require much play testing and extream caution with the creation of attacks and defences. Care must be taken not to create worthless actions or uber-powerful actions.
*Players must be fully informed of the difference between real combat and practice and be vividly aware when they are in real combat mode instead of normal practice.
#8
*I don't have many ideas on how this could be effectively implemented, but what comes to mind is combat in formations. The unity of the formation directly dictated how effective the attacks of each individual are. For example - formations tended to move laterally to the right as each man tried to get behind and use the protection provided by the sheild of the man to his right. This crowded that man and he would then move to his right, thus causing the entire formation to "slide" to the right during h2h combat. This lack of dicipline would then open up the left flank of the unit to flanking attacks by the opposing forces.
06/08/2005 (3:32 pm)
2. The combat experience must make the player feel like a link in a chain. The player must feel that his role is vital to the out come of the battle but also that his strength is directly tied to the unity of his team and coordination with fellow soldiers.*I don't have many ideas on how this could be effectively implemented, but what comes to mind is combat in formations. The unity of the formation directly dictated how effective the attacks of each individual are. For example - formations tended to move laterally to the right as each man tried to get behind and use the protection provided by the sheild of the man to his right. This crowded that man and he would then move to his right, thus causing the entire formation to "slide" to the right during h2h combat. This lack of dicipline would then open up the left flank of the unit to flanking attacks by the opposing forces.
#9
I think what made it such a success was its customabillity. Models, weapons and buildings could be imported. AI, spell effects, triggers, you name it, it call all be changed and done in powerful scripting. I guess it is similar to why games like HL2 and Unreal are so popular. There were lord of the rings mods. Mods for Morowind, Warhammer, Pool of Radience. It was very, very cool (and it was how I got into scripting, which lead to programming, which is why i am here!)
I haven't played a MMORPG, through lack of funds (and i DONT want to lose my life again like when I was hooked on NWN!) but i am sure the sence of community wouldnt be as big.
Anyway, enough rambling, just my 2 cents.
06/08/2005 (4:13 pm)
I just wanted to chime in on the NWN thing. Most of my spare time in 2004 was on NWN. Why? Cause I was on a sever, like what Alex described, with a max limit of 64. Everyone knew everyone. The feeling of community and friendship (with not a little rivalry) was awesome. When you went on there would always be people on who you knew and would want to party with, or just chat to. We had our own forums on the Bioware site, and a team of DMs who would do custom quests and who knew us. One example was that we had a Guild system, and my guild was one of the most powerful, so they made use a HQ, and did the same for our rivals. I was fun assulting their base (they had about twice as many members on though so we got massacared!) And the best thing? this was one of hundereds of communities like it. I think what made it such a success was its customabillity. Models, weapons and buildings could be imported. AI, spell effects, triggers, you name it, it call all be changed and done in powerful scripting. I guess it is similar to why games like HL2 and Unreal are so popular. There were lord of the rings mods. Mods for Morowind, Warhammer, Pool of Radience. It was very, very cool (and it was how I got into scripting, which lead to programming, which is why i am here!)
I haven't played a MMORPG, through lack of funds (and i DONT want to lose my life again like when I was hooked on NWN!) but i am sure the sence of community wouldnt be as big.
Anyway, enough rambling, just my 2 cents.
#10
Your experience was better in some respects because the content was tailored to you and your friends.
The flip side is that compared to the amount content in an MMO even NWN comes up short.
The other thing to think about is that I challenge you to name something about NWN that couldnt be replicated in an MMO. Sure maybe it hasnt been done YET...but any magic or combat styles...almost all NPC interactions or AI...Im betting that the right people could bring similar gameplay to an MMO. (I havent played it...I know I know. Everyone kills me for that)
I do agree about sim-style gameplay...but from a different angle. I think that if you do the Gothic thing...civilization sim running in the background + you give NPCs AI with dynamic goals...then you'd feel more like you were in a living breathing world.
MMOs will change from the red-headded step child to the forefront someday. You wait.
06/08/2005 (4:24 pm)
What you just described is the feeling of being part of a tight-knt guild in any MMORPG.Your experience was better in some respects because the content was tailored to you and your friends.
The flip side is that compared to the amount content in an MMO even NWN comes up short.
The other thing to think about is that I challenge you to name something about NWN that couldnt be replicated in an MMO. Sure maybe it hasnt been done YET...but any magic or combat styles...almost all NPC interactions or AI...Im betting that the right people could bring similar gameplay to an MMO. (I havent played it...I know I know. Everyone kills me for that)
I do agree about sim-style gameplay...but from a different angle. I think that if you do the Gothic thing...civilization sim running in the background + you give NPCs AI with dynamic goals...then you'd feel more like you were in a living breathing world.
MMOs will change from the red-headded step child to the forefront someday. You wait.
#11
Well, what if -
A) The average Joe could get right back into the action when he wishes?
B) ...Had original quests, all the time, whenever he wished?
C) ...Had a chance, in every quest, to get rare, exceptional, or artifact items?
D) ...Had totaly unique abilities and levels?
E) ...Could have all of this, within a persistant, massively multiplayer RPG?
This is my scope of things going right for a change.
- Ronixus
06/09/2005 (2:05 am)
Quote:
Eveyone else is just some average Joe trying to accomplish the same quests to get the same gear and the same next level as everybody else.
Well, what if -
A) The average Joe could get right back into the action when he wishes?
B) ...Had original quests, all the time, whenever he wished?
C) ...Had a chance, in every quest, to get rare, exceptional, or artifact items?
D) ...Had totaly unique abilities and levels?
E) ...Could have all of this, within a persistant, massively multiplayer RPG?
This is my scope of things going right for a change.
- Ronixus
#12
Once player has gained control, other quest is automatically generated, that allows people to go out and take your little territory away.
06/09/2005 (3:14 am)
Well, I think NWN experience could be emulated in MMO, if there was implemented and logical framework for being a game master. Say, there's a high level quest for killing a wizard, yadda yadda. Player who completes the quest gains ability to control certain forces in contained area (former wizards realm)- be those monsters, or weather or curses. Combine that with some resources (a mine or shop that gives small but steady income or maybe even something like library that produces really low but steady influx of exp points) and players suddenly have incentive to go out and do quests for other reasons than just bland exp and mid-level artefact.Once player has gained control, other quest is automatically generated, that allows people to go out and take your little territory away.
#13
> that could be done easily
B) ...Had original quests, all the time, whenever he wished?
> Very hard...but Im working on it...a dynamic quest system based off NPCs with changing needs and goals
C) ...Had a chance, in every quest, to get rare, exceptional, or artifact items?
> then those items wouldnt be rare LOL
D) ...Had totaly unique abilities and levels?
> Explain what a unique skill is? Some skill I have that no one else has? Uhm. Lockpicking a small chest would be something everyone should do...not just one person.
06/09/2005 (3:40 am)
A) The average Joe could get right back into the action when he wishes?> that could be done easily
B) ...Had original quests, all the time, whenever he wished?
> Very hard...but Im working on it...a dynamic quest system based off NPCs with changing needs and goals
C) ...Had a chance, in every quest, to get rare, exceptional, or artifact items?
> then those items wouldnt be rare LOL
D) ...Had totaly unique abilities and levels?
> Explain what a unique skill is? Some skill I have that no one else has? Uhm. Lockpicking a small chest would be something everyone should do...not just one person.
#14
I do see where you are going with this - but it seems to me that this requires the MMO to just become huger and more unweildly from a design standpoint. The reason I support the NWN approach is because it accomplishes a real sense of investment in the game world by making that world small enough that each player can feel unique within it, rather than continuing to expand the scope of the game to be so huge that everyone feels different. Can you imagine a game like WoW where all of the million players were totally unique and had unique abilities and skills? How would you balance that? It would be a nightmare beyond mortal reckoning!
Again, here the small server with a handful of dedicated DMs is better - membership can be restricted to people approved by the people running the game - or if not that, the DMs have few enough players that they can track what happens in the world much more accurately than in a Massive game - and punish the perpetrators directly.
You might also run into the problem that many people play these games because they want to feel special and powerful - exactly the feeling that fails to be fufilled in an MMO where everybody else is also special and powerful. Not saying that a sim-like MMO would be bad, but it would appeal to a very different audience.
06/15/2005 (12:53 pm)
Quote:I challenge you to name something about NWN that couldnt be replicated in an MMO.I suggest that the sense of having any sort of meaningful impact on the game world would be difficult to replicate in MMOs as they stand today. Perhaps if, instead of having 100 WoW servers with 5,000 players on each, you have 5,000 WoW servers with 100 players on each, you could accomplish this sense. Also, having the games be cyclic - so that you actually played through a story arc that effected the whole world - could change the unending level treadmill into something more meaningful.
Quote:Well, what if -
A) The average Joe could get right back into the action when he wishes?
B) ...Had original quests, all the time, whenever he wished?
C) ...Had a chance, in every quest, to get rare, exceptional, or artifact items?
D) ...Had totaly unique abilities and levels?
E) ...Could have all of this, within a persistant, massively multiplayer RPG?
I do see where you are going with this - but it seems to me that this requires the MMO to just become huger and more unweildly from a design standpoint. The reason I support the NWN approach is because it accomplishes a real sense of investment in the game world by making that world small enough that each player can feel unique within it, rather than continuing to expand the scope of the game to be so huge that everyone feels different. Can you imagine a game like WoW where all of the million players were totally unique and had unique abilities and skills? How would you balance that? It would be a nightmare beyond mortal reckoning!
Quote:I think we need to begin finding the game play in "mundane" characters. (etc)I think that making a more gritty/realistic MMO experience would be quite interesting - but it would present a very difficult challenge to prevent "griefing" and min-maxing from ruining the experience. Many early MMOs such as UO were more gritty and in some ways encourages more mundane behavior (owning property/ running shops, etc)... but because of that small minority of griefer type players, newer MMOs have moved to a more "nerfed" world.
Again, here the small server with a handful of dedicated DMs is better - membership can be restricted to people approved by the people running the game - or if not that, the DMs have few enough players that they can track what happens in the world much more accurately than in a Massive game - and punish the perpetrators directly.
You might also run into the problem that many people play these games because they want to feel special and powerful - exactly the feeling that fails to be fufilled in an MMO where everybody else is also special and powerful. Not saying that a sim-like MMO would be bad, but it would appeal to a very different audience.
#15
what if players could customize their character's fighting style by combining skills (kick , punch, fire ball,etc.) in different orders or groups, and then use all the skills at once with the press of a bindable key?? it would be unique but not ultimately unique... get what i mean?
06/15/2005 (3:06 pm)
Quote:D) ...Had totaly unique abilities and levels?
what if players could customize their character's fighting style by combining skills (kick , punch, fire ball,etc.) in different orders or groups, and then use all the skills at once with the press of a bindable key?? it would be unique but not ultimately unique... get what i mean?
#16
what if players could customize their character's fighting style by combining skills (kick , punch, fire ball,etc.) in different orders or groups? it would be unique but not ultimately unique... get what i mean?
06/15/2005 (3:18 pm)
Quote:D) ...Had totaly unique abilities and levels?
what if players could customize their character's fighting style by combining skills (kick , punch, fire ball,etc.) in different orders or groups? it would be unique but not ultimately unique... get what i mean?
#17
I've just started playing Star Wars Galaxies and I like it so far. The game does press on about how important I am to the Force, but it is fairly easy to ignore.
The ultimate MMO in my mind, will let people do what they want. In SWG, all I want to do is build ships and sell them, and I can pretty much do that. Others go off and PvP a lot, still while others just want to dance, sing, and play instruments (although that seems boring to me).
A good MMO will have something for everyone: the fighters, the economists (like myself), and the social-types. A good MMO will provide things for those people to do, while advancing their character in that fashion, in a fun way.
06/15/2005 (3:39 pm)
I've played WoW since closed Beta (well, I stopped playing about 4 months ago) and attempted to play Guild Wars for a little as well. My main problem with these, as someone else mentioned, is everyone is a hero!I've just started playing Star Wars Galaxies and I like it so far. The game does press on about how important I am to the Force, but it is fairly easy to ignore.
The ultimate MMO in my mind, will let people do what they want. In SWG, all I want to do is build ships and sell them, and I can pretty much do that. Others go off and PvP a lot, still while others just want to dance, sing, and play instruments (although that seems boring to me).
A good MMO will have something for everyone: the fighters, the economists (like myself), and the social-types. A good MMO will provide things for those people to do, while advancing their character in that fashion, in a fun way.
#18
That does make sense, but again I think that it would be hard to balance... and ultimately would be just an extensive macroing system.
I agree to an extent... but think that this is another area that MMOs can get lost in - even if I can just do what I want, the things presented must be compelling in some way that is going to keep the players interest. Being a crafter is all well and good, but you can only click the "make shiney leather armor +1" button so many times before it gets a little drab. Having a guild you are helping out can alleviate this by adding a soical function, but again it somes down to the fact that there are hundreds of crafters with the same skills you have, and there is often very little that you can do to set yourself apart. Once again, this is a place where I think that having a world with fewer heroes would be a big benefit.
06/16/2005 (2:49 pm)
Quote:what if players could customize their character's fighting style by combining skills (kick , punch, fire ball,etc.) in different orders or groups? it would be unique but not ultimately unique... get what i mean?
That does make sense, but again I think that it would be hard to balance... and ultimately would be just an extensive macroing system.
Quote:The ultimate MMO in my mind, will let people do what they want.
I agree to an extent... but think that this is another area that MMOs can get lost in - even if I can just do what I want, the things presented must be compelling in some way that is going to keep the players interest. Being a crafter is all well and good, but you can only click the "make shiney leather armor +1" button so many times before it gets a little drab. Having a guild you are helping out can alleviate this by adding a soical function, but again it somes down to the fact that there are hundreds of crafters with the same skills you have, and there is often very little that you can do to set yourself apart. Once again, this is a place where I think that having a world with fewer heroes would be a big benefit.
#19
06/17/2005 (1:24 pm)
What thread was revived?
#20
1. Property ownership(as in houses and vehicles). Perferably visible on the map, though if you allow this, you need a very good landmass to player ratio to keep urban sprawl down. I had a good time running a little pub back in my UO days.
2. Lots of explorable terrain. Some people think this 'breaks' the community, but if your world is designed properly, people will naturaly 'collect' in certain areas(large towns, newbie areas, etc.), while at the same time giving players the option to explore, never knowing what they may find.
3. Less reliance on static quests. You need a good live team to pull this off, but a dynamic, ongoing storyline that the players can actualy influence would be nice(WISH attempted this)
4. Dynamic spawning system. The world should change as the game goes on to make it feel more alive, you can't accompish this if kobold camp a is always on the map and will spawn x number of kobolds ever y minutes.
5. Minigames. They should fit your world, but having little diversions can help prevent burnout and makes the world seem more alive.
06/17/2005 (2:37 pm)
I've thought about MMO's many times from different viewpoints and come to the conclusion that there isn't ONE correct way to go about it(same hold true for most games), but there are some things I like in MMO's, including...1. Property ownership(as in houses and vehicles). Perferably visible on the map, though if you allow this, you need a very good landmass to player ratio to keep urban sprawl down. I had a good time running a little pub back in my UO days.
2. Lots of explorable terrain. Some people think this 'breaks' the community, but if your world is designed properly, people will naturaly 'collect' in certain areas(large towns, newbie areas, etc.), while at the same time giving players the option to explore, never knowing what they may find.
3. Less reliance on static quests. You need a good live team to pull this off, but a dynamic, ongoing storyline that the players can actualy influence would be nice(WISH attempted this)
4. Dynamic spawning system. The world should change as the game goes on to make it feel more alive, you can't accompish this if kobold camp a is always on the map and will spawn x number of kobolds ever y minutes.
5. Minigames. They should fit your world, but having little diversions can help prevent burnout and makes the world seem more alive.
Torque Owner Alfred Norris
This is similar to what we are doing. Our game is post-apoc so everyone gets a radio. These radios have channels. As was suggested before...these channels can be hacked. Imagine getting to listen to your enemies plans as they are giving them. Ahhh but real online gamers use TeamSpeak! Well lots of games have VoIP...and what if they were able to listen to your TS channel for 20 seconds or so? Ahhh that would be REALLY fun wouldnt it?
Hope that's food for thought. Delete this if Ive posted in the wrong place or out of turn.
Alfred Norris, VoodooFusion Studios
CONFLICT:Omega