Torque vs TrueVision3D

#1 Well for one thing, it's not crossplatform.

#2 A good point, though I was really only considering Windows use anyway :P
I'm more confused about the features of both.

Why is Torque a better engine? Is it more powerful? More flexible? Can it do more features? Dynamic lighting and what have you not?

I'm at a total loss... I was told that TV3D is not for beginners, and some knowledge of Visual Basic, C++, C# , Delphi or other language of the like is advisable... I know the basics of VB and C++ .. but only the *basics* , while with Torque, no previous experience is needed ... how handy!

I'm willing to learn... so which engine is more suited for me?

Thanks,
Dave

#3

Quote:, while with Torque, no previous experience is needed ... how handy!

Not sure where you got this impression, but just like any other engine, Torque is best utilized with at least some basic understanding of programming and using a language...the "no previous experience" concept is probably quite misleading. You still need to understand the basics of code design and development, even in scripting.

#4 TV's a good engine to use. you can download an earlier version of the engine sdk to try out for free just like torque. if youre interested, just download it and check it out. i was impressed by what i saw but i had to delete it because i couldnt compile the programs. if you get TV, dont make the mistake I made and try to compile it using msvc 6.0. even though the website says otherwise, it WILL NOT work with msvc 6; it requires the .NET. i had to learn that the hard way after spending two nights downloading the latest directX sdk.

the major selling point to true vision is that its multi-lingual, meaning you can write your programs in C or VB without any loss in speed. many people like the idea of being able to write their games in VB.

#5 If you're just looking for a quick feature rundown:
TrueVision
Torque

You'll notice that Torque is actually rated lower in ease of use, and although I've never used the other engine, I tend to agree that Torque is challenging to learn. However, with Torque you have the possibility of being able to almost completely stay away from C++, doing all of the major work in TorqueScript. TrueVision has no scripting environment that I'm aware of, so your entire game will be written in C++/VB/Delphi. I would say that it would be easier for a beginner to pick up a scripting language, as they tend to be more flexible and can stop you from shooting yourself in the foot.

However, your best option is to buy nothing at all right now and go download their demos. The Torque demo has all of the game scripts included, so you can start messing around with the scripting language before you spend any money. TrueVision lets you download the api for free, so you should try that out too.

#6 Thanks everyone, I'll take your advice and go fiddle with the demo's some.
I had a problem compiling the TrueVision engine earlier - I'll try again in the morning (It's 2:04 - blimey!!)

I think, all in all, I'm leaning more towards Torque - I've read of a great community, loads of supports and getting started docs, and - newbie friendly-ish - well, more-so than TrueVisions engine.

Rather admittably, I think I prefer the look of TV's graphics, but hell, if I can't actually make sense of anything, then why get my hopes up? ;)

Thanks all,
Dave

#7 @Dave: If your new to programming, then being able to look at source code and step through sections of it with a debugger would be helpful for you. If you are too broke to afford TGE, but still want to learn from nice source code, then consider www.irrlicht3d.org/. Irrlicht is free, and has all the source code for you to view! It also has a new .net interface for C# VB, etc. And offers just about everything TV has, and more if you compare it to 6.2

B--

edit: the above link is the engine creators' blog. Here is the engine link: irrlicht.sourceforge.net/

#8 Both engines require a good amount of experience with programming, and are more programmer-friendly than newbie-friendly. Both require a certain level of knowledge to be able to pick them up and use them effectively, and neither one will hold your hand for you. The biggest difference that I know of is that with TGE, you get the complete source code for the entire engine (minus a master server) and TV is a SDK. The key difference being that you don't get the actual guts to the engine. You can extend it through the SDK, but the core engine is locked away under their lock and key. This is extremely common, so TGE is rare in that. The other thing that I noticed is that it is not a networked engine. TGE has EXCELLENT networking. On the flip-side, it has DirectPlay hooks for playing video formats. TGE has a number of solutions on this front, but creating a plug-in achitecture for cross-platform video is a complex problem.

I've heard nothing but problems from people who are attempting to use VB 6 with TV, but I've heard great things from people who have moved to VB.NET and are using it. I think that has to do with conversion problems between 6/.NET and managed growing pains.

The best thing that I can recommend is to download 6.2 of TV and play with it. Also download TGE's demo and play with it.

EDIT:
Looking at art and making a decision based on that is an extremely risky venture. I see people all the time who look at the art created in Maya or Lightwave or Max or Cinema 4D or XSI (OMG RE4!) and expect that they'll be able to create the same level of art simply because others can. There is a serious disconnect between the idea of artist and tool in the minds of many. Look at the videos for Timothy Aste's content packs. Look at the TSE videos and demos. Look at a large number of Blitz3D and BlitzMax demos and you'll see some amazing artwork for that engine.

But keep in mind that good art requires a good artist.

#9 Here's a huge issue right now that is recognized even by the developers of TV3D.

They have no Networking with the engine. And it will probably be a while before networking gets put into the engine. One of the developers for TV3D got some contract work at E3 and so some of the general development of TV3D has to be put on hold.

But one of the biggest things to consider when looking at different engines is, "What games have been SHIPPED with this engine?". "Is it an industry proven engine?" Don't just look at tech demos.... anyone can do tech demos. Currently TV3D isn't even a finished engine with shipped games. I say it isn't finished because even the developers admit there are a lot of things that still need to be put into the engine.

The other thing to look at is the size of the development community. Just by following things on the GarageGames.com forum, you can see how active the dev community is around here.

Good point about good art needing good artists. Just take a look at some of Tim Aste's work and you will see what an amazing game artist can do.

#10 Ok.
This is a subject that I was afraid to bring up on GG, but you saved me the effort.
The TV engine is about a 15watt Incandecent and TGE is a 1000watt High Pressure Sodium Lamp.
I used TV for 2 years.
It took me 6 months to create a realtime game editor.
3 more to add a working networking model.
After Russ Smith showed me TGE, I got really really smashed, cried, burned all my work to CD and removed it from my hard drive.
And went the way of TGE/TSE.
I use TV to create small 3D applications to this very day (3D port scanners, pingers, etc.).
However, anyone who is trying to create/deploy a game with TV is wasting their time in my opinion.
Rob and Joe left BrokeAss Games to create a game in TV and are slowly working their way back into BrokeAss games so that they can be part of a released game.
TGE is a strong, proven network game, that is playable out of the box.
My girlfriend claims that I ramble on about VisualBasic in pure code in my sleep.
However, I gave up my native language and changed to C so that I could use TGE.
So, to make it simple, I had to throw away 2 years of work, change my native language (damn near religion) and arrived WAY ahead of schedule by switching.
TV is good for 3D applications.
TGE is good for games.
If you doubt anything I have said invite some TV users to Game In a Day and watch what happens to the poor guys.
TrueVision thanks for the time we shared, now rest in peace.
End of line...

#11 Lots of interesting discussion - I've opted for Torque :)

Thanks for the opinions + reviews everyone, all been very handy :)
Time for me to fiddle with Torque a bunch ! ;)

Once again, thanks,
Dave

#12 I just registered to clear up a few inaccurate items about Truevision3D.

First, I'd like to say, that for new programmers, Torque is definately a more attractive option. There is a ton of source code available for TV3D, just like Torque, but it is nowhere near as organized as the GarageGames website. (We are working to resolve this with our new website, which will be released shortly.)

Quote:I've heard nothing but problems from people who are attempting to use VB 6 with TV

I am not sure where this is coming from, as we have 100% VB compatibility. I have not heard of one single problem with VB, and I'd be the one to know if there were any. Our next version has a brand new wrapper system, which allows 100% of our features to be used across all languages (right now there are minor problems with Delphi because of the events).

Quote:They have no Networking with the engine. And it will probably be a while before networking gets put into the engine.

Our networking engine is in closed testing right now. It is based upon very successful technology that used to be the core of my security business applications. It has been proven to support many thousands of connections, and works with UNIX and Windows. On top of that, its currently in use by thousands of companies in a very popular IDS system.

Quote:One of the developers for TV3D got some contract work at E3 and so some of the general development of TV3D has to be put on hold.

This is entirely false. I went to E3 for the sole purpose of having closed door meetings with many different companies who were looking to partner with us. I was not there to find work, as I am plenty busy. ;) We are still doing weekly builds of our beta, and our devs are working on the engine hours each day.

Quote:Currently TV3D isn't even a finished engine with shipped games.

There are currently over 100 shipped products developed with TV3D. The usage of TV3D far surpasses the gaming market, which is why the technology has been chosen by some of the top simulation companies across the globe. The latest game made (in VB, I might add) with TV3D that was picked up by a publisher is Maximum Football published by Matrix Games. (http://www.maximum-football.com)

Quote:I say it isn't finished because even the developers admit there are a lot of things that still need to be put into the engine.

I do believe this is simply a misquote. The engine (especially 6.5) is very polished, and supports everything you expect from todays graphics hardware, and with the standard ease of use of TV3D. (Shaders, Physics, Networking, Managed Lighting, Advanced Particle Systems, Plugins for all of the popular 3D modelling apps, and more)

Quote:The other thing to look at is the size of the development community.

We all know that GarageGames is a larger community. But TV's community is by no means small, we have thousands of active members, and 3 very active chatrooms.

Quote:TV is good for 3D applications.
TGE is good for games.

I partially agree with you here. TV3D does take more time to setup, but this in turn grants you greater flexibility in the end. With 6.5 coming we have multiple tools that will make things much easier on the developer -- and speed up your development. (And FYI, we've had many users create full-blown games in less than 24hours, it just takes a good coder who understands how TV3D works, and knows their chosen programming language.)

In the end, I believe that both Torque and TV3D have their place, it is just that we have chosen not to focus entirely on games.

John Hart
Project Manager
Truevision3D, LLC

#13 Does TV3D have a comparable terrain/ world edtior and the like?

#14 One of Torques best capabilities is real time Terrain and Mission editing... is there something comparable in TV3D ?

Also

Quote:It is based upon very successful technology that used to be the core of my security business applications. It has been proven to support many thousands of connections, and works with UNIX and Windows. On top of that, its currently in use by thousands of companies in a very popular IDS system.

That really is unimpressive considering networking for network security systems has different concerns than games. Not that it is a negative, but really that statement means almost nothing towards how well networking is supported for gaming. (at least in my book)

#15 I'm guessing that the answer is no, from the DevMaster.net comparisons. Sorry for not doing my research before posting.