Online Fantasy Strategy, Tactics, etc
by Bob Carlton · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 05/23/2005 (7:17 am) · 8 replies
I'm currently working on an online game I hope to have finished in the summer of 2006 and I just wanted some input on what people thought about the general concept.
There isn't any game I know of that is reminiscent of mine. It more or less incorporates various game genres/concepts and not just one. But its basically an online fantasy strategy game. The name of the game is tentatively titled "Immortal Soverign".
The strategy aspect of the game is played out on the browser while the battles are fought out as 2 player contests via downloadable software. I'll discuss the battle portion of the game first as it is really the core of the game.
First off, the game is limited graphically. I use images contained in rectangular shapes to represent characters and monsters. A good way to visualize this would be to think of the card game Magic the Gathering. Each player can have up to 12 units on the battlefield at a time. The design of the interface is neat and effective, the images are professionally done and easily identifiable, but their is little to no animation to speak of.
I sometimes think of the battle portion of the game as like playing fantasy chess with customizable characters. However, that isn't a great description as you don't move the characters (characters are either front-line or back-line) and each piece/character has infinite types of ability choices that it can make. But I say "Chess" because it is a tactical game.
In designing the game what I most wanted to accomplish was to produce a fantasy battle/tactics game with a wealth of depth to character development and advancement. The game includes some 200 spells, twice that in skills, a variety of potions, an expanding list of magical items and artifacts, immensely customizable character classes, bunches of special abilities for monsters, weapon skills, and more.
That is the greatest strength of the game to me. Its greatest weakness is definately the lack of animation. But its not really a weakness to me as a player but it may certainly be for others interested in playing the game.
Besides the depth of choice for customizing your characters, I have also added some original gameplay elements such as characters using both an attack/skill or spell/skill or spell/potion in the same round. This makes it so players don't have to choose between using a potion or a spell. Also, the use of summoned creatures, mercenaries, heroes, or immortals makes for interesting decisions. In addition, 16-17th century technology is included, including the opportunity for characters to equip themselves with various cannon types.
There isn't any game I know of that is reminiscent of mine. It more or less incorporates various game genres/concepts and not just one. But its basically an online fantasy strategy game. The name of the game is tentatively titled "Immortal Soverign".
The strategy aspect of the game is played out on the browser while the battles are fought out as 2 player contests via downloadable software. I'll discuss the battle portion of the game first as it is really the core of the game.
First off, the game is limited graphically. I use images contained in rectangular shapes to represent characters and monsters. A good way to visualize this would be to think of the card game Magic the Gathering. Each player can have up to 12 units on the battlefield at a time. The design of the interface is neat and effective, the images are professionally done and easily identifiable, but their is little to no animation to speak of.
I sometimes think of the battle portion of the game as like playing fantasy chess with customizable characters. However, that isn't a great description as you don't move the characters (characters are either front-line or back-line) and each piece/character has infinite types of ability choices that it can make. But I say "Chess" because it is a tactical game.
In designing the game what I most wanted to accomplish was to produce a fantasy battle/tactics game with a wealth of depth to character development and advancement. The game includes some 200 spells, twice that in skills, a variety of potions, an expanding list of magical items and artifacts, immensely customizable character classes, bunches of special abilities for monsters, weapon skills, and more.
That is the greatest strength of the game to me. Its greatest weakness is definately the lack of animation. But its not really a weakness to me as a player but it may certainly be for others interested in playing the game.
Besides the depth of choice for customizing your characters, I have also added some original gameplay elements such as characters using both an attack/skill or spell/skill or spell/potion in the same round. This makes it so players don't have to choose between using a potion or a spell. Also, the use of summoned creatures, mercenaries, heroes, or immortals makes for interesting decisions. In addition, 16-17th century technology is included, including the opportunity for characters to equip themselves with various cannon types.
#2
I also plan to include an arena section (to train your skills in battle), chat area, message board, and events that hopefully will add to the "persistent world" affect.
Ok, that is the "general" idea. Sorry for blabbing. I just really want to give anyone reading this an idea of what the game is really like. Obviously I can't fully do that yet but hopefully what I have included helps.
What I want to know is how well do you think this game can do as an online game? How big is the market? There are plenty of Muds and Morphs out there. There are RTS games and even turn based strategy. But I havn't seen any large scale online strategy games where players tactically fight each other and customize characters. I have looked. This is the type of game I want to play myself.
I want to make this a professional game and I have never made or sold a professional game before. What I am concerned about is the market for it and the lack of graphics affects. I hope to be able to charge a monthly fee. Somewhere between $5-10. Is that realistic? I have seen a few online rpg/morph type games that charge this or more that don't include any really appealing graphics but still have a large membership. Can I compare to those, considering rpg's do tend to facilitate strong communities? It is my goal to have a strategy community, but their will be little roleplaying interaction.
Any thoughts or questions are appreciated. Thank you.
05/23/2005 (7:21 am)
Continued...I also plan to include an arena section (to train your skills in battle), chat area, message board, and events that hopefully will add to the "persistent world" affect.
Ok, that is the "general" idea. Sorry for blabbing. I just really want to give anyone reading this an idea of what the game is really like. Obviously I can't fully do that yet but hopefully what I have included helps.
What I want to know is how well do you think this game can do as an online game? How big is the market? There are plenty of Muds and Morphs out there. There are RTS games and even turn based strategy. But I havn't seen any large scale online strategy games where players tactically fight each other and customize characters. I have looked. This is the type of game I want to play myself.
I want to make this a professional game and I have never made or sold a professional game before. What I am concerned about is the market for it and the lack of graphics affects. I hope to be able to charge a monthly fee. Somewhere between $5-10. Is that realistic? I have seen a few online rpg/morph type games that charge this or more that don't include any really appealing graphics but still have a large membership. Can I compare to those, considering rpg's do tend to facilitate strong communities? It is my goal to have a strategy community, but their will be little roleplaying interaction.
Any thoughts or questions are appreciated. Thank you.
#3
$5-10 a month is ok, but that isn't the big problem here.
The biggest problem is that you've never made or sold a professional game before. You should start out smaller first.
Make the strategy game part as a single player game. Then make the RPG part as a single player game. Then make a sequel to the strategy game that has multiplayer capabilities (but isn't a MMOG). Then make a combo game with both strategy and RPG parts that has multiplayer capabilities (but isn't a MMOG). Then make a practice MMOG. Then make the final MMOG.
You can sell all those games.
I assume you already have experience writing simple games (e.g. pacman, tetris, and whatever). Without doing the easy junk first, you stand no chance of success. Given that you have no skills, website, or anything else listed in your profile, it's unclear what experience you have.
Another big problem is that you plan to skimp on the art. In this day and age, you can't do that. Have good art and only half as many different characters.
You also brag about 200 spells, etc. It's better to have 10 good spells than 200 spells that you're never going to use. Who's even going to know what all 200 spells do? You'll get into a fight, and some guy will use the "Evil Taco of Death" spell, and you won't know what's going on.
Even if you do all this, it doesn't mean you will succeed. It just betters your chances. Dual-genre games tend do poorly. Only the very few that mesh genres perfectly do well.
I think anyone here would suggest that you attempt a project of much smaller scope. Since you seem to be planning to have some grand genre-combining MMOG that you probably want to have a huge world, etc., you had better have an entire company of veteran game development staff working for you.
05/23/2005 (7:33 pm)
Personally, I think a less complicated game might be more fun. But, if the game is implemented properly, it could be really cool.$5-10 a month is ok, but that isn't the big problem here.
The biggest problem is that you've never made or sold a professional game before. You should start out smaller first.
Make the strategy game part as a single player game. Then make the RPG part as a single player game. Then make a sequel to the strategy game that has multiplayer capabilities (but isn't a MMOG). Then make a combo game with both strategy and RPG parts that has multiplayer capabilities (but isn't a MMOG). Then make a practice MMOG. Then make the final MMOG.
You can sell all those games.
I assume you already have experience writing simple games (e.g. pacman, tetris, and whatever). Without doing the easy junk first, you stand no chance of success. Given that you have no skills, website, or anything else listed in your profile, it's unclear what experience you have.
Another big problem is that you plan to skimp on the art. In this day and age, you can't do that. Have good art and only half as many different characters.
You also brag about 200 spells, etc. It's better to have 10 good spells than 200 spells that you're never going to use. Who's even going to know what all 200 spells do? You'll get into a fight, and some guy will use the "Evil Taco of Death" spell, and you won't know what's going on.
Even if you do all this, it doesn't mean you will succeed. It just betters your chances. Dual-genre games tend do poorly. Only the very few that mesh genres perfectly do well.
I think anyone here would suggest that you attempt a project of much smaller scope. Since you seem to be planning to have some grand genre-combining MMOG that you probably want to have a huge world, etc., you had better have an entire company of veteran game development staff working for you.
#4
"Make the strategy game part as a single player game. Then make the RPG part as a single player game. ."
My goal is not necessarily to "Sell Games" though. This is the dream project I have wanted to do since I started learning to program and its what I spend all my free time doing. The reason I want to make money is because I don't want to spend 3 years or more making the game and have it then die out because I can't continue to use up my free time hosting and working on a game that does nothing financially.
But I love working on it and that is why I'm not concerned about the time it takes. And I am basically working on it in smaller parts. It has not overwhelmed me to this point and I will continue until I run into something I just can't do...hopefully that doesn't happen.
"I assume you already have experience writing simple games (e.g. pacman, tetris, and whatever). Given that you have no skills, website, or anything else listed in your profile, it's unclear what experience you have."
I've never made graphics type games like pacman or tetris but I have done an rpg...with simple graphics. And I have a lot of website design experience. I just registered and havn't added anything to my profile. I've also done a bunch of online game type sites...tournaments and world building stuff.
"Another big problem is that you plan to skimp on the art. In this day and age, you can't do that. Have good art and only half as many different characters."
I don't like to think I'm skimping. I'm paying an artist to draw me quality images. Costing me quite a bit of money...but I'm not animating them in anyway. I'm still considering going back later and adding a few affects but I'm kind of trying to prove a point that flashy graphics aren't everything (and if I did try to do more the time to make the game would become too much for me most likely). They aren't to me as a player. I'm making a game I would like to play but it remains to be seen how many others will.
"You also brag about 200 spells, etc. It's better to have 10 good spells than 200 spells that you're never going to use.."
I don't mean to brag, I'm just trying to give people a feel for the game to see if they would like it and if that would = a succesful game if implemented well.
Because the game is of such large scale and all players advance multiple characters in multiple classes (multi-classing in a unique way) I believe the # of spells and other abilities greatly enhances the game for those who like that sort of thing (not everyone I realize). I've been on message boards (hosting my own as well) where people talk about the next addition of heroes of might and magic. The # of spells, creatures, and so forth is always parimount on the minds of the players.
Also, I have a different philosophy as far as making websites as most people tend to. I like putting up all the necessary info for players who really want to know what is up. Spell lists and dicipline choices will be made available. And in the battle client all you need to do is mouseover spells or whateve to see what they do, etc. People will definately become familiar with all types of spells and abilities in time (especially if they battle in the arena often).
"Even if you do all this, it doesn't mean you will succeed. It just betters your chances. I think anyone here would suggest that you attempt a project of much smaller scope."
Ok, thanks. And trust me, I respect all you professional developers that try to make a living making games. That is hard for me to imagine. Luckily for me I can do this as a hobby...yet still hope for success professionally.
05/23/2005 (8:18 pm)
Thanks for the input."Make the strategy game part as a single player game. Then make the RPG part as a single player game. ."
My goal is not necessarily to "Sell Games" though. This is the dream project I have wanted to do since I started learning to program and its what I spend all my free time doing. The reason I want to make money is because I don't want to spend 3 years or more making the game and have it then die out because I can't continue to use up my free time hosting and working on a game that does nothing financially.
But I love working on it and that is why I'm not concerned about the time it takes. And I am basically working on it in smaller parts. It has not overwhelmed me to this point and I will continue until I run into something I just can't do...hopefully that doesn't happen.
"I assume you already have experience writing simple games (e.g. pacman, tetris, and whatever). Given that you have no skills, website, or anything else listed in your profile, it's unclear what experience you have."
I've never made graphics type games like pacman or tetris but I have done an rpg...with simple graphics. And I have a lot of website design experience. I just registered and havn't added anything to my profile. I've also done a bunch of online game type sites...tournaments and world building stuff.
"Another big problem is that you plan to skimp on the art. In this day and age, you can't do that. Have good art and only half as many different characters."
I don't like to think I'm skimping. I'm paying an artist to draw me quality images. Costing me quite a bit of money...but I'm not animating them in anyway. I'm still considering going back later and adding a few affects but I'm kind of trying to prove a point that flashy graphics aren't everything (and if I did try to do more the time to make the game would become too much for me most likely). They aren't to me as a player. I'm making a game I would like to play but it remains to be seen how many others will.
"You also brag about 200 spells, etc. It's better to have 10 good spells than 200 spells that you're never going to use.."
I don't mean to brag, I'm just trying to give people a feel for the game to see if they would like it and if that would = a succesful game if implemented well.
Because the game is of such large scale and all players advance multiple characters in multiple classes (multi-classing in a unique way) I believe the # of spells and other abilities greatly enhances the game for those who like that sort of thing (not everyone I realize). I've been on message boards (hosting my own as well) where people talk about the next addition of heroes of might and magic. The # of spells, creatures, and so forth is always parimount on the minds of the players.
Also, I have a different philosophy as far as making websites as most people tend to. I like putting up all the necessary info for players who really want to know what is up. Spell lists and dicipline choices will be made available. And in the battle client all you need to do is mouseover spells or whateve to see what they do, etc. People will definately become familiar with all types of spells and abilities in time (especially if they battle in the arena often).
"Even if you do all this, it doesn't mean you will succeed. It just betters your chances. I think anyone here would suggest that you attempt a project of much smaller scope."
Ok, thanks. And trust me, I respect all you professional developers that try to make a living making games. That is hard for me to imagine. Luckily for me I can do this as a hobby...yet still hope for success professionally.
#5
05/24/2005 (5:52 am)
I agree with most of what was said before. Especially starting out with a smaller game (in the same world) and then building up over time. This will allow you to drag people into the world you are developing over a number of years, and build a community of people who love the world you are creating and the all the spell systems etc in use. I'm not sure about how important the graphics are, but i still play the 1st civilization game every now and then so maybe i'm wierd. The complexity of the world can work for you or against you, a lot of games i've played (table top as well as video) had very complex systems of doing things which made them difficult to get into but hard to stop playing once you get going. This is the sort of game me and some friends would probably give a go, but yeah, start out smaller, maybe with something similar to the old game "chaos".
#6
pluvious0.tripod.com/screenshots/
05/25/2005 (2:10 am)
I decided to get a temp website up and post some screenshots since that is usually the easiest way for others to gauge a game. These are just for the battle client part of the game of course...since that is all I have been working on. I still have a lot to do here (including many small errors and aesthetic improvements) but you should be able to get an idea of how the battles work.pluvious0.tripod.com/screenshots/
#7
05/25/2005 (4:27 am)
I'm still not sure how it works, looks cool though, and i want to play it. My brother wasnt too impressed but i think its the sort of thing he would try out anyway then get sucked into it. A small scale prototype people could play to some extent would prolly get you more useful feedback.
#8
1) Either the game will be too big to be done with your resources/skills, and the whole project will never get done, or...
2) You'll nerf your game until it becomes do-able within your constraints. At the end, you'll look at the finished product and realize it's just a mockery that vaguely resembles your dreams. Any revolutionary ideas you had will be lost inside a low-key game.
I know it sounds boring, repetitive and off-putting, but before doing dream games, try do do as many games as you can before that. If your game has loads of features, split those features in as many smaller games as necessary, as Steven said.
Even if it's not your dream game, the joy of completing a game, even if a simple one, and seeing people enjoying it and talking about it is something not of this world.
05/25/2005 (12:15 pm)
Just an advice, based on personal experience, about "dream games": never try to make them without some solid experience first. You will get frustated, plain and simple, due to two reasons:1) Either the game will be too big to be done with your resources/skills, and the whole project will never get done, or...
2) You'll nerf your game until it becomes do-able within your constraints. At the end, you'll look at the finished product and realize it's just a mockery that vaguely resembles your dreams. Any revolutionary ideas you had will be lost inside a low-key game.
I know it sounds boring, repetitive and off-putting, but before doing dream games, try do do as many games as you can before that. If your game has loads of features, split those features in as many smaller games as necessary, as Steven said.
Even if it's not your dream game, the joy of completing a game, even if a simple one, and seeing people enjoying it and talking about it is something not of this world.
Bob Carlton
The strategy part of the game I have not begun yet. The concept is that each player signs up as a deity/god. To play "Immortal Soverign" players must understand that there is both the overall "World" and the individual campaigns. Each has both a FAME and a FAITH ranking. Players advance in both of these.
When players signup they select a campaign to join and begin play when the appropriate # of players has signed up. If the campaign has already begun then players can join up until a determined cutoff date. Multiple campaigns will be running at any given time and new players will always be able to begin play as soon as they join.
In a given campaign each player starts on a portion of the map and explores. The maps will be 2D and look a bit like regular maps do. Things like towns/castles will be included. Again, no animation in the strategy part of the game.
Players basically move and attack. Attacks are played out against the AI in the battle part of the game or against another player. Players begin with two Immortal characters (heroes that persist in both the world and campaign) and gain additional heroes and mercenaries to fight battles with. Each character is customizable but mercenaries do not gain skills/disciplines.
In addition to battle other conepts such as diplomacy, agriculture and trade, building up cities, and hero quests are included in gameplay. This will be in depth as well but not overly difficult or cumbersome. Skills/Disciplines chosen by each individual character can also improve startegy abilities (movement, gold production, spying, etc). The strategy portion of the game can be compared to games such as Heroes of Might and Magic, although I have used many turn based strategy games as models (Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, Masters of Magic, Fantasy General, etc).
In terms of time, players are not limited (generally). They can play as quickly or as slowly as they like. Players of similiar levels begin play in each campaign (eg novices begin together on a particular campaign). As a player advances levels in a campaign they acquire levels for all their heroes, immortals, and mercenaries. For Immortals, this experience also adds to their "World" experience. World experience requires far more effort to advance levels. A level 20 Immortal in a campagin may have acquired enough exprerience to advance one level in the overall world.
Fame is earned based on deeds in each campaign. Winning battles, conquering territories, establishing alliances, and vanquishing villians all add to fame. Faith is gained based on the type of deity a player has chosen. Building churches increases fame, as do deeds performed in the name of a player's particular deity (like starting a war for the god of war or an alliance for the god of peace). Gods can also enter battle at times and their faith determines their power. Faith also gives added benefits (battle or otherwise) to all members of a player's army. Fame is basically rank. The player with the highest fame score wins the given campaign. Fame and Faith can sometimes conflict in terms of choices of actions in a given campaign.