Electronic Arts says indie won't cut it
by Joshua "RegularX" Birk · in General Discussion · 05/18/2005 (4:50 am) · 114 replies
Not sure how many people took note of this:
"The high cost of game development means that only the largest companies can afford to be in the business. While low-budget movies can occasionally become hits, "it is now impossible to 'Blair Witch' this business," said Jeff Brown, vice president for corporate communications at Electronic Arts, referring to the successful independent film."
That was in the New York Times. I blabbed about in my blog, and from there you can hit Grand Text Auto's excellent declaration of Big Hair Games. Clearly it more or less annoyed me, as I would assume it aggravate many here. EA is being widly close-minded and egocentric here.
"The high cost of game development means that only the largest companies can afford to be in the business. While low-budget movies can occasionally become hits, "it is now impossible to 'Blair Witch' this business," said Jeff Brown, vice president for corporate communications at Electronic Arts, referring to the successful independent film."
That was in the New York Times. I blabbed about in my blog, and from there you can hit Grand Text Auto's excellent declaration of Big Hair Games. Clearly it more or less annoyed me, as I would assume it aggravate many here. EA is being widly close-minded and egocentric here.
About the author
#102
If one of our games did well enough I'd certainly suggest initialy sharing a larger home with by business partner, rent divided equaly by the number or people. That would certainly cut costs and make working far more convenient :)
As you say, $100 is pretty unique. Some expenses that need to be taken into account on top of rent would be; Groceries, electricity, gas, water, garbage, phone, internet, TV (optional), auto (possibly house or rental) insurance, fuel and incidentals which assuming you are free from debt (including Student Loans) still bumps up the price considerably. I don't think most people are in it for the money but we do want to eat. Speaking of which...
08/28/2005 (10:44 pm)
It's not hard to live on a meager income if your single have no real commitments. But when your married and there are more than 2 peoples needs to satisfy, things can get tricky. We've aleady moved twice in 3 years to better suit our combined income. My choice to turn indie was initialy to allow my wife to keep her stable state job and prevent the need for me to commute 90 miles each way on a daily basis. At the time a the cheapest single room bedsit was $600 per month.If one of our games did well enough I'd certainly suggest initialy sharing a larger home with by business partner, rent divided equaly by the number or people. That would certainly cut costs and make working far more convenient :)
As you say, $100 is pretty unique. Some expenses that need to be taken into account on top of rent would be; Groceries, electricity, gas, water, garbage, phone, internet, TV (optional), auto (possibly house or rental) insurance, fuel and incidentals which assuming you are free from debt (including Student Loans) still bumps up the price considerably. I don't think most people are in it for the money but we do want to eat. Speaking of which...
#103
Man...you make it sound like it's bad to have oyur own spot. I feel kind of guilty after reading what you said. Please tell me I'm a good person :) But seriously, I'm not too sure if I can honestly see myself doing something like that. Living with 6+ other people takes a lot of calm. I would definatley have to have my own room with very thick walls. Stinky ass bastards using your stuff, wearing your clothes, and blairing their Blink 182. I can just imagine Real World Dorkopolis, and the sausage fest version at that. The horror....
-Ajari-
08/28/2005 (11:52 pm)
Quote:this should be ideal for independant development and people who are in it to create and inspire rather than to just line their pockets and construct a shrine to themselves in the middle of whatever yuppie urban district is all the rage.
Man...you make it sound like it's bad to have oyur own spot. I feel kind of guilty after reading what you said. Please tell me I'm a good person :) But seriously, I'm not too sure if I can honestly see myself doing something like that. Living with 6+ other people takes a lot of calm. I would definatley have to have my own room with very thick walls. Stinky ass bastards using your stuff, wearing your clothes, and blairing their Blink 182. I can just imagine Real World Dorkopolis, and the sausage fest version at that. The horror....
-Ajari-
#104
---4096---
08/29/2005 (12:38 am)
100$ for me covers all of my expenses. but i'm fortunate to be part of a network which is not of my creating. i'm able to live on a family horse ranch (my family). my expenses are about 3$ a day at the very max, much less by other conservative estimates. i spend about an hour or two a day tending to animals and other minor upkeep tasks and call it even. my family owns the land and infrastructure which makes that possible, but there is no reason why a cooperative can not do the same. to keep an operation like that running cost next to nothing and can be driven down further probably by taking on more aggressive substainable models like private solar energy, fishing grounds, vegetables which grow themselves and such. not that i'm advocating any 'hippie' model, though it might be a fun expiriment. still i can vouch that living in a natural paradise sure beats the hell out of city life. and is actually very cheap to accomodate. our society in the states is all about consumption. we are incouraged to be independant because 'independant' people must buy more washing machines and such.---4096---
#105
i recommend DishNetwork for your programming needs. they have the best programming by far, and you only have to pay for one account, then for 5$ extra you get as many copies of this account as possible no questions asked. you have the right to take your dish wherever you want to go, even put it on your van... you can have your 5$ dish at any of your residences. we have like 5 going right now, had more in the past. even one 3 hours away at a family lake retreat. its not abuse, it is legitimate, they have the policy because if they didn't there are easy ways for people to do the same thing illegitimately. anyhow my point is with a family or close group of friends, a shared account can get you all the programming they can offer spread out amongst yourselves. that is 5$ per tv even in the same house if you want it to be able to recieve indapendant programming. but basicly you can put them anywhere you want and they won't ride you about it. there is probably a limit like around 15 or so. they give you enough room to have like 4 indapendant tvs at 3 different houses.
so my indapendant programming costs me like 5$ a month plus say my 1/5th share of the programming bill, which would be part of the 3$ a day max possible estimate. my gas and electricity and groceries are within the 3$ estimate as well. naturally i don't eat like a king and being in the middle of nowhere you can't exactly eat out or order out pizza though if that is your sorta thing. though restaurantes like that are only like a 20 minute drive away and i make a mean pizza myself.
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08/29/2005 (12:40 am)
My only complaint is lack of access to a broadband internet. a satellite system is available for like 150$ a month but you would need a lot of people using it to justify the cost, and because of the constant latency you can't really use satellite internet for playing reaction based games, but it is fine for downloading. in the city there are a lot of free community wifi options. i had broadband internet access for free all over portland and seattle when i visited last december. cable internet providers are cracking down on these efforts though ... though there arguments can't last forever in court because they are ludicrous on the face.i recommend DishNetwork for your programming needs. they have the best programming by far, and you only have to pay for one account, then for 5$ extra you get as many copies of this account as possible no questions asked. you have the right to take your dish wherever you want to go, even put it on your van... you can have your 5$ dish at any of your residences. we have like 5 going right now, had more in the past. even one 3 hours away at a family lake retreat. its not abuse, it is legitimate, they have the policy because if they didn't there are easy ways for people to do the same thing illegitimately. anyhow my point is with a family or close group of friends, a shared account can get you all the programming they can offer spread out amongst yourselves. that is 5$ per tv even in the same house if you want it to be able to recieve indapendant programming. but basicly you can put them anywhere you want and they won't ride you about it. there is probably a limit like around 15 or so. they give you enough room to have like 4 indapendant tvs at 3 different houses.
so my indapendant programming costs me like 5$ a month plus say my 1/5th share of the programming bill, which would be part of the 3$ a day max possible estimate. my gas and electricity and groceries are within the 3$ estimate as well. naturally i don't eat like a king and being in the middle of nowhere you can't exactly eat out or order out pizza though if that is your sorta thing. though restaurantes like that are only like a 20 minute drive away and i make a mean pizza myself.
---DAMN CUT THIS TOO SHORT---
#106
sorry to ramble on, but here are just some examples for cutting the cost of living for people just getting started or advice for peoples children.
i'm not a domestic sort, and the idea of little me's running around is frightening at best. but if i was responsible for children, i wouldn't even put them in school. teach them how to read and edge them towards philosophy and the childs mind will do the rest. let them play positive video games, watch movies, read literature, play outside, do what they want to do. save your money for buying libraries of books and media so the child is able to feed its own mind on its own terms. the human mind is not really ready for the real world until about the age of 19 at the least. until then let the child do what they want to do and those persuits will have the best chances of sinking in. if it was up to me school would be a place where children can come and go and form clubs and teach one another of all ages. stay at home if they wish or go to school where vast libraries of information and tools would be available to all people. there is something very frightening about the way schools are organized. its not about learning its about socialization, and probably unhealthy socialization at best. everyone knows children don't remember this stuff that has no relationship to there lives. and the worst place to put a child in terms of growth and personal empowerment is in a room full of other children of the same age year after year. surely they will grow up acting like children as does the vast majority of our adults.
sincerely,
michael
08/29/2005 (12:41 am)
As for the car if you are not commuting to work/school then you'd be surprised how little you need it. as for student loans i've avoided school because it is insanely ineffecient, costly, and on the whole unhealthy and time consuming. i wouldn't recommend it to anyone, especially if your goal is to be independant and desire to work in a field like computing. before the internet universities were useful places for people to gather and share knowledge, but the internet blows that model out of the water. now universities only offer the benefit of access to very expensive lab equipment, which well people like yourselves probably don't require. beyond that universities don't really fullfill the promises which they proport to offer. my mother is manages the local universities registrar database, fortunately i've had the benefit of access to free textbooks, also the university for a long time had a program of collecting slightly aged books and storing them in the library where they could be purchased for a dollar. i think i bought just about all of them save for the economics and law books. i also have access to the university library by way of my mother. you'd be surprised though how efficiently a person can teach themself with access to materials. also old 1$ books are 99.9% just as good as the 150$ text books the university book industry pushes on its victims. most of the newer information is better found on the internet anyhow. anyhow, fortunately i've been able to avoid any university debts and from a brief 1 semester stint i did on a scholarship i figure the experience and knowledge i was able to amass during 3 years not attending university is comparable to at least 30 years in a university. its just much more effecient to drop all the university bull shit and just wake up and go to sleep reading and expirimenting for yourself. plus the best minds are all online, the odds of just stumbling over useful people in a university are rather slim really. sorry to ramble on, but here are just some examples for cutting the cost of living for people just getting started or advice for peoples children.
i'm not a domestic sort, and the idea of little me's running around is frightening at best. but if i was responsible for children, i wouldn't even put them in school. teach them how to read and edge them towards philosophy and the childs mind will do the rest. let them play positive video games, watch movies, read literature, play outside, do what they want to do. save your money for buying libraries of books and media so the child is able to feed its own mind on its own terms. the human mind is not really ready for the real world until about the age of 19 at the least. until then let the child do what they want to do and those persuits will have the best chances of sinking in. if it was up to me school would be a place where children can come and go and form clubs and teach one another of all ages. stay at home if they wish or go to school where vast libraries of information and tools would be available to all people. there is something very frightening about the way schools are organized. its not about learning its about socialization, and probably unhealthy socialization at best. everyone knows children don't remember this stuff that has no relationship to there lives. and the worst place to put a child in terms of growth and personal empowerment is in a room full of other children of the same age year after year. surely they will grow up acting like children as does the vast majority of our adults.
sincerely,
michael
#107
in my experience most people want to live in a family.... though they are probably not crazy about the one they were born into. most cultures are organized this way. the states and a small number of western european societies are unique in pushing this idea of everyone gets there own house and everything else model. better to be able to pick your family. and yeah, if you associate with creeps you wouldn't want to live with then you might be the sort who might be better off trying to fend for themselves by themselves, but for the rest of us genuinely social creatures the benefits to be gained are practicly immeasurable. a 6 person house would be a good sized house. you would have your room, sound proofed if you are smart, and no one else would live your room unless you were sleeping with your housemates. if you are operating around a business model, like a development studio, you might want a bunk type room where people could stay termporarily for a chance to work hands on for a little while and then split up and go back where you came from or somewhere else where you can collaborate from via the internet. having a network of houses with bunk rooms would mean members of your group could cheaply travel from house to house by bus or car and not have to deal with exhorbitant hotel bills, hostels can even be expensive in comparrison and certaintly wouldn't offer the degree of hospitalities and amenities and chance to work together as such a model could.
i would highly recommend anyone in the 18 to 35 range living like this. at 35 decide if you want to move out and raise children from the fringe or focus on your work into old age. the domestic sorts could have their offices in which to commune, while the non domestics could live and work on their visions without having to deal with the costly expenses of trying to live independantly and would probably pull much of the weight of the group versus the older but by that time respected domestics. you can build libraries, keep all of your games, music, literature, cinema and such as collectively owned. then one game can be passed between members of the group rather than everyone ponying up for their own copy. you could have totally free access to anything you please and nothing would go wasted.
its like the commune model of the 60's in a way but without the debauchery. its really for creative people who care more about creating inspirational work than living a life of inane self indulgeance. it probably wouldn't work at all for immature people. its for creative people who have reached a stage of their life where they wish they could be free of earthly coils to focus on their work and would care to do little else but such in the company of likewise dedicated and wholey decent people. this is what society is really about. what we have now is civilization, which literally means being civil and accomodating one another, but not necesarrilly socialization or supporting one another for the betterment of each other. yeah its communism, decentralized, and noncoercisive, communism at its best, but you're not comfortable with communism then its probably not for you. its basicly a communist business model as an antidote to the capitalist model. pure and simple, 'community' versus 'money'. you would thing it should resonate with a crowd like this... but sense when have we humans ever made too much sense?
sincerely,
michael
08/29/2005 (12:58 am)
Quote:Man...you make it sound like it's bad to have oyur own spot. I feel kind of guilty after reading what you said. Please tell me I'm a good person :) But seriously, I'm not too sure if I can honestly see myself doing something like that. Living with 6+ other people takes a lot of calm. I would definatley have to have my own room with very thick walls. Stinky ass bastards using your stuff, wearing your clothes, and blairing their Blink 182. I can just imagine Real World Dorkopolis, and the sausage fest version at that. The horror....
in my experience most people want to live in a family.... though they are probably not crazy about the one they were born into. most cultures are organized this way. the states and a small number of western european societies are unique in pushing this idea of everyone gets there own house and everything else model. better to be able to pick your family. and yeah, if you associate with creeps you wouldn't want to live with then you might be the sort who might be better off trying to fend for themselves by themselves, but for the rest of us genuinely social creatures the benefits to be gained are practicly immeasurable. a 6 person house would be a good sized house. you would have your room, sound proofed if you are smart, and no one else would live your room unless you were sleeping with your housemates. if you are operating around a business model, like a development studio, you might want a bunk type room where people could stay termporarily for a chance to work hands on for a little while and then split up and go back where you came from or somewhere else where you can collaborate from via the internet. having a network of houses with bunk rooms would mean members of your group could cheaply travel from house to house by bus or car and not have to deal with exhorbitant hotel bills, hostels can even be expensive in comparrison and certaintly wouldn't offer the degree of hospitalities and amenities and chance to work together as such a model could.
i would highly recommend anyone in the 18 to 35 range living like this. at 35 decide if you want to move out and raise children from the fringe or focus on your work into old age. the domestic sorts could have their offices in which to commune, while the non domestics could live and work on their visions without having to deal with the costly expenses of trying to live independantly and would probably pull much of the weight of the group versus the older but by that time respected domestics. you can build libraries, keep all of your games, music, literature, cinema and such as collectively owned. then one game can be passed between members of the group rather than everyone ponying up for their own copy. you could have totally free access to anything you please and nothing would go wasted.
its like the commune model of the 60's in a way but without the debauchery. its really for creative people who care more about creating inspirational work than living a life of inane self indulgeance. it probably wouldn't work at all for immature people. its for creative people who have reached a stage of their life where they wish they could be free of earthly coils to focus on their work and would care to do little else but such in the company of likewise dedicated and wholey decent people. this is what society is really about. what we have now is civilization, which literally means being civil and accomodating one another, but not necesarrilly socialization or supporting one another for the betterment of each other. yeah its communism, decentralized, and noncoercisive, communism at its best, but you're not comfortable with communism then its probably not for you. its basicly a communist business model as an antidote to the capitalist model. pure and simple, 'community' versus 'money'. you would thing it should resonate with a crowd like this... but sense when have we humans ever made too much sense?
sincerely,
michael
#108
08/29/2005 (2:03 am)
Evil Assosiation - who cares, what they probably mean, is that by time they have brought every middleware solution then they will chage to much to licence so people like us wont survive? well who cares this is a hobby for me not a job and maybe i will just get lucky but im not bothered eitherway. The Evil Assosiation is driven by money I am driven by games nuff said.
#109
i've began compiling some initial documentation of the operating system here:
http://arcadia.angeltowns.com/share/overman.html
if anyone is interested.
the docs here though are purposely abstract though. actual usage of the constructs presented within depend on environment variables like the configuration of the system shell and such. hands on tutorials for common environment settings will be linked to eventuall from the 'notes' section. i have a demo that impliments more or less everything hinted at within this document. jeremy alessi has had the opertunity to play with and can confirm that it is functioning if anyone doubts the seriousness of these stakes. -michael
08/29/2005 (2:16 am)
Don't worry, i'm building the backbone of the development model which will blast entities like EA to smithereenes soon enough. i've began compiling some initial documentation of the operating system here:
http://arcadia.angeltowns.com/share/overman.html
if anyone is interested.
the docs here though are purposely abstract though. actual usage of the constructs presented within depend on environment variables like the configuration of the system shell and such. hands on tutorials for common environment settings will be linked to eventuall from the 'notes' section. i have a demo that impliments more or less everything hinted at within this document. jeremy alessi has had the opertunity to play with and can confirm that it is functioning if anyone doubts the seriousness of these stakes. -michael
#110
Anyway to explain what is going on. When Gish crashes it captures my mouse so that I can not move it and can only X kill the directory that I am working in. After that is done I can not do anything but hit the power button. Luckily I do then get a clean shutdown sequence.
Before installing I did a search of my repo for OpenAL and OpenGL and SDL. I did have a number of SDL games installed before but that. Then I did install every SDL lib that I did not already have.
07/01/2007 (10:46 am)
Hello I am new here. It seems as though I have logged in to the developer forum. Maybe this is one big dev site and that is cool but I would like some help with my Gish game crashing my system so bad that I can not even get a backtrace for it. I have tried to load it in the terminal on my PCLinuxOS how ever sense I have not added it yet to the menu I see no way to load it via the Rundialog with the terminal option.Anyway to explain what is going on. When Gish crashes it captures my mouse so that I can not move it and can only X kill the directory that I am working in. After that is done I can not do anything but hit the power button. Luckily I do then get a clean shutdown sequence.
Before installing I did a search of my repo for OpenAL and OpenGL and SDL. I did have a number of SDL games installed before but that. Then I did install every SDL lib that I did not already have.
#111
07/01/2007 (11:12 am)
This topic is 2 years old and not about Gish.
#112
Alternatively, you can click on GISH Support.
07/01/2007 (11:26 am)
If you click on the "Support" tab in your navigation bar here at the web site above, select Product Support, and then select Gish from the drop-down list, you can send an email directly to the developers of the game.Alternatively, you can click on GISH Support.
#113
I have actually went to the and pick up some games for my computer. There is alot more variety of genres.
Basically the same thing over and over gets boring. I like originality, I like to try new things. The Indie market should keep trying and the big companies should try some orginalality.
GISH, Marble Blast, ECT.
07/02/2007 (9:46 am)
I think the big companies are forgetting the point. They were once in the same position as the indie developers and its the indie developers that come up with the unique and origanal ideas. Think about it I have an Xbox 360 I have abot 10 games. I haven't touched it for about 2 months now, because all the games are basically the same fighting, driving, sports, FPS, ect. I have actually went to the and pick up some games for my computer. There is alot more variety of genres.
Basically the same thing over and over gets boring. I like originality, I like to try new things. The Indie market should keep trying and the big companies should try some orginalality.
GISH, Marble Blast, ECT.
#114
07/02/2007 (10:27 am)
Most non sequitur bump of a two-year-old thread evar! 
Torque Owner Michael Arcadia
do indapendent developers really need to live like this? personally i live very comfortably on 100$ a month. my situation is fairly unique, but nothing people working together who really want to be creative can't manage. for one thing move into a rural areas where the rent and cost of living is more reasonable. if you want to live in an urban environment, try somewhere like portland oregon. get a team together and rent out a three story group house. your rent would be like 250$ a person or much less and you could help each other with chores and even work in your home and cut out commuting and still have a group working environment where everyone can work closely together. unless you just have a major hankering for a self centered domestic lifestyle, a model like this should be ideal for independant development and people who are in it to create and inspire rather than to just line their pockets and construct a shrine to themselves in the middle of whatever yuppie urban district is all the rage.
its not hard to live as comfortably as any human ever really does on 1200$ a year in the states, if you have real friends willing to support each other. add about 400~800$ a year for equipment and you are set.