Electronic Arts says indie won't cut it
by Joshua "RegularX" Birk · in General Discussion · 05/18/2005 (4:50 am) · 114 replies
Not sure how many people took note of this:
"The high cost of game development means that only the largest companies can afford to be in the business. While low-budget movies can occasionally become hits, "it is now impossible to 'Blair Witch' this business," said Jeff Brown, vice president for corporate communications at Electronic Arts, referring to the successful independent film."
That was in the New York Times. I blabbed about in my blog, and from there you can hit Grand Text Auto's excellent declaration of Big Hair Games. Clearly it more or less annoyed me, as I would assume it aggravate many here. EA is being widly close-minded and egocentric here.
"The high cost of game development means that only the largest companies can afford to be in the business. While low-budget movies can occasionally become hits, "it is now impossible to 'Blair Witch' this business," said Jeff Brown, vice president for corporate communications at Electronic Arts, referring to the successful independent film."
That was in the New York Times. I blabbed about in my blog, and from there you can hit Grand Text Auto's excellent declaration of Big Hair Games. Clearly it more or less annoyed me, as I would assume it aggravate many here. EA is being widly close-minded and egocentric here.
About the author
#2
EA's vice president for corporate communications doesn't mean crap to me. I never heard of the guy, and he's never heard of me. I have about as much cause to listen to his opinions as he has to listen to mine.
05/18/2005 (4:55 am)
Who cares what they think? I surely don't. ... OMG EA doesn't think I can do it, better pack it up and move on to something else.EA's vice president for corporate communications doesn't mean crap to me. I never heard of the guy, and he's never heard of me. I have about as much cause to listen to his opinions as he has to listen to mine.
#3
05/18/2005 (6:35 am)
Smoke screen to discourage us. It wont work!
#4
Course, they don't need logic or facts ... since they have a pretty loud voice. Will Big Hair really make a better game? It might make for a more immersive one, I suppose - but immersion is a much smaller factor than the big studios want gamers to think.
05/18/2005 (6:46 am)
It's definately classic FUD. They're also interested in controlling the message about "what games are". EA is a hollywood style studio, and they want people to believe that games are about pizzazz and glitz - even if it's 90% recycled gameplay.Course, they don't need logic or facts ... since they have a pretty loud voice. Will Big Hair really make a better game? It might make for a more immersive one, I suppose - but immersion is a much smaller factor than the big studios want gamers to think.
#5
I mean before Blairwitch didn't hollywood say the same thing! From what I gather in the profit margin stakes aren't some indies already making better returns than some of these so called mega studios!
edit: I should add that this isn't compared to AAA titles, just the standard titles like puzzlers and arcade style games. Though given Pariah didn't make any profit after the flop we may be out classing even their so called AAA stuff soon. That kind of leave EA with the sports market doesn't it ;o)
05/18/2005 (6:51 am)
It does sound like EA are starting to notice that indies can actually do it cheaper and faster and to a near identical quality (just look at some of the indie artists on GG like Tim. I mean before Blairwitch didn't hollywood say the same thing! From what I gather in the profit margin stakes aren't some indies already making better returns than some of these so called mega studios!
edit: I should add that this isn't compared to AAA titles, just the standard titles like puzzlers and arcade style games. Though given Pariah didn't make any profit after the flop we may be out classing even their so called AAA stuff soon. That kind of leave EA with the sports market doesn't it ;o)
#6
05/18/2005 (7:01 am)
Jeff Brown never fails to piss me off. 
#7
05/18/2005 (7:07 am)
Hmmmm... I wonder how many games EA has gotten bundled with Apple??? 
#8
It appears big companies, like sony, ea, blizzard are now more focusing on demographics and surveys then they are on origonal ideas and being innovated. Their focus on building nitendo quest games are going to be their downfall, when ever you cater to the lowest common denominator... thats what you get. A game that take little to no skill to play, and is easily learned and mastered...
I'm not sure how many people agree with me, but I really miss the early days of EQ. Yes they were difficult, the server crashes were plentiful, and the bugs..... were worse than naggy...(EQ reference)
But their original product was the "Vision" of one man's dream, it wasn't something concocked to hit numbers that some survey group was spouting. It was about making a game that he would want to play and enjoy.
Sony bastardized the game when they bought it in my opinion and consistently lowered the lowest common denominator until the game became like other online games today...
Of course, this is the reason for my plan :) To give indies, a free resource that is professionally built to manage a mpog. God bless opensource!
Vince
05/18/2005 (7:11 am)
Take the anger and turn it inward my son... let it fuel your rage to out develope them! :) hehehe, I personally believe that no big studio will ever have a hit like EQ1 was when it released. It appears big companies, like sony, ea, blizzard are now more focusing on demographics and surveys then they are on origonal ideas and being innovated. Their focus on building nitendo quest games are going to be their downfall, when ever you cater to the lowest common denominator... thats what you get. A game that take little to no skill to play, and is easily learned and mastered...
I'm not sure how many people agree with me, but I really miss the early days of EQ. Yes they were difficult, the server crashes were plentiful, and the bugs..... were worse than naggy...(EQ reference)
But their original product was the "Vision" of one man's dream, it wasn't something concocked to hit numbers that some survey group was spouting. It was about making a game that he would want to play and enjoy.
Sony bastardized the game when they bought it in my opinion and consistently lowered the lowest common denominator until the game became like other online games today...
Of course, this is the reason for my plan :) To give indies, a free resource that is professionally built to manage a mpog. God bless opensource!
Vince
#9
I mean before Blairwitch didn't hollywood say the same thing! From what I gather in the profit margin stakes aren't some indies already making better returns than some of these so called mega studios!
05/18/2005 (7:16 am)
It does sound like EA are starting to notice that indies can actually do it cheaper and faster and to a near identical quality (just look at some of the indie artists on GG like Tim. I mean before Blairwitch didn't hollywood say the same thing! From what I gather in the profit margin stakes aren't some indies already making better returns than some of these so called mega studios!
#10
05/18/2005 (7:28 am)
Quote:This non-laughable hair will increase budgets upward of $15 million15 million! Lordy, give that 15 mil to the indie community and you're looking at the budget for 30 full-featured games!
#11
On a less sarcastic note, can you imagine being that poor guy with a CS degree working a 70 hour week in an EA cubicle doing some virtual avatar's hairdo?
How does one QA that anyway? Is the split two many pixels to the left? Will Dante's bangs be too long?
05/18/2005 (7:33 am)
But think of all that time we wasted laughing at hair during games! It was an outrage and I'm glad Electronic Arts has stepped up to the challenge of finally fighting Not Completely Realistic Hair (NCRH).On a less sarcastic note, can you imagine being that poor guy with a CS degree working a 70 hour week in an EA cubicle doing some virtual avatar's hairdo?
How does one QA that anyway? Is the split two many pixels to the left? Will Dante's bangs be too long?
#12
Today pen and paper RPG's...tomorrow we topple Mount Wudai...um EA!
Seriously...what corporation tries to discourage their future employees from contributing. Especially a company with employmee relations as heinous as EA's.
05/18/2005 (7:35 am)
Just what I needed to get me to roll up my sleeves and get into the indie game development community.Today pen and paper RPG's...tomorrow we topple Mount Wudai...um EA!
Seriously...what corporation tries to discourage their future employees from contributing. Especially a company with employmee relations as heinous as EA's.
#13
Indie game studios are no more a threat to outfits like EA than indie film studios are a threat to big box office Hollywood, so there is no need to waste energy on scheming to deflate them. If we think that he's saying this as some underhanded ploy, we're giving ourselves too much credit.
All this means to me is that here is a man with a simple mind and a limited vision. I think he believes what he says.
05/18/2005 (8:30 am)
Quote:"The high cost of game development means that only the largest companies can afford to be in the business."
Indie game studios are no more a threat to outfits like EA than indie film studios are a threat to big box office Hollywood, so there is no need to waste energy on scheming to deflate them. If we think that he's saying this as some underhanded ploy, we're giving ourselves too much credit.
All this means to me is that here is a man with a simple mind and a limited vision. I think he believes what he says.
#14
05/18/2005 (8:33 am)
What do you mean? EA doesn't treat it's employees as assets? I am shocked and chagrined.... :) 
#15
You will see SUCCESSFUL medium-to-big-budget A and AAA independent studios exerting their independence and commoditizing their publishers - and selling games directly online in an end-run around the whole retail side of things anyway.
You'll see little guys doing quite well (as well, financially, as their wageslave counterparts at the big publishers) doing their own thing, SLOWLY getting box deals and making the penetration into retail while retaining their direct-Internet-sales as sustained revenue.
You'll see online portals receiving REALLY big investment money (and some even making really big money) selling games that aren't available in stores.
You'll see lower-tier publishers bubbling up through sheer hard work and rather than massive investments and famous CEOs.
You'll see little independent-focused publishers / tools providers like, say, GarageGames, pulling some mainstream media attention and making deals with major manufacturers.
You'll see the big, AAA publishers trying to deny that their empires are in any way threatened by the barbarian hordes.
Once you see these things happen, you'll know the revolution has begun.
(Edit: I should note that this post is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. It was fun to write, but the truth is this has been happening for a long time. It's cyclic. Indies aren't gonna topple EA or anything, but the fact that Microsoft and Nintendo are BOTH putting emphasis on catering to indies should tell you right now that we ARE making a difference, and we ARE making inroads. But it was fun to right a little bit of my own hubris.)
05/18/2005 (8:40 am)
I don't think the revolution is gonna happen in fully-funded, multimillion dollar media-blitz style with sound bites on the six o'clock news. It's not gonna be so much about Warrior Goddesses springing full-blown from the forehead of their fathers, but it's going to be a quiet, slow thing that will hopefully catch the big megabucks publishers with their pants around their knees while they've been sitting on their hubris.You will see SUCCESSFUL medium-to-big-budget A and AAA independent studios exerting their independence and commoditizing their publishers - and selling games directly online in an end-run around the whole retail side of things anyway.
You'll see little guys doing quite well (as well, financially, as their wageslave counterparts at the big publishers) doing their own thing, SLOWLY getting box deals and making the penetration into retail while retaining their direct-Internet-sales as sustained revenue.
You'll see online portals receiving REALLY big investment money (and some even making really big money) selling games that aren't available in stores.
You'll see lower-tier publishers bubbling up through sheer hard work and rather than massive investments and famous CEOs.
You'll see little independent-focused publishers / tools providers like, say, GarageGames, pulling some mainstream media attention and making deals with major manufacturers.
You'll see the big, AAA publishers trying to deny that their empires are in any way threatened by the barbarian hordes.
Once you see these things happen, you'll know the revolution has begun.
(Edit: I should note that this post is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. It was fun to write, but the truth is this has been happening for a long time. It's cyclic. Indies aren't gonna topple EA or anything, but the fact that Microsoft and Nintendo are BOTH putting emphasis on catering to indies should tell you right now that we ARE making a difference, and we ARE making inroads. But it was fun to right a little bit of my own hubris.)
#16
Now speaking as someone who is in the trenches right now making indie games, I would have to honestly say that we as indies are for the most part not doing enough to make great titles. Let me continue before you freak out over that comment, as a generalization we produce the same old drab shit that people saw 3 or more years ago and for the most part don't put a new or unique spin on it. Congratulations you made a game but yet you forgot that we are fighting for the hearts and minds of people who see the latest sugar frosted bullshit that the EAs of the world can make, so the 800lbs gorilla has quite literally already slapped you around, put a wig on you and called you "Sally".
Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly fine to make a game that's a homage to some cool product that we played years ago and stayed in our mind as something, but we need to remember too that the market is moving forward, not backwards. So as much as you may want to remake a classic title, we also need to keep looking at how can we bring it forward to compete today's market and use it to bloody the nose of the AAA guys.
We need to bridge the gap by ensuring that the quality is there in every aspect of the game (ie. art, code, audio, game play, etc.) so that when someone looks at the game, irregardless if they are 'hardcore' or 'casual' they say "Wow that's kinda neat, I want to try that out". This is what will make the difference between indie and INDIE! games, one gets a snide response from people the other makes people stand up and take notice.
How exactly you decide to do this with your meager resources available is entirely up to you, no one is here to hold your hand or tell you how (because if we did we honestly wouldn't be Indie anymore). I am just here to give you a swift kick in the ass and say this:
"Smarten up. Quit bitching about what the AAA industry is saying and make a game already! Push yourself, your team and your resoures to their limits and squeeze ever iota out of it if you want to succeed and be anything more than a hobbiest. You need to find a way to be unique and an angle to compete at a level that you can win at. This is what made the EAs of the world what they are today from their grassroots start as indies and its what will make your team and/or product succeed too if you get off your ass and just do it".
Logan
05/18/2005 (8:46 am)
Actually I hate to say it but EA is partially correct. The bar is being moved higher and higher and creating a gap between AAA and Indie titles. That gap is quality. Now speaking as someone who is in the trenches right now making indie games, I would have to honestly say that we as indies are for the most part not doing enough to make great titles. Let me continue before you freak out over that comment, as a generalization we produce the same old drab shit that people saw 3 or more years ago and for the most part don't put a new or unique spin on it. Congratulations you made a game but yet you forgot that we are fighting for the hearts and minds of people who see the latest sugar frosted bullshit that the EAs of the world can make, so the 800lbs gorilla has quite literally already slapped you around, put a wig on you and called you "Sally".
Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly fine to make a game that's a homage to some cool product that we played years ago and stayed in our mind as something, but we need to remember too that the market is moving forward, not backwards. So as much as you may want to remake a classic title, we also need to keep looking at how can we bring it forward to compete today's market and use it to bloody the nose of the AAA guys.
We need to bridge the gap by ensuring that the quality is there in every aspect of the game (ie. art, code, audio, game play, etc.) so that when someone looks at the game, irregardless if they are 'hardcore' or 'casual' they say "Wow that's kinda neat, I want to try that out". This is what will make the difference between indie and INDIE! games, one gets a snide response from people the other makes people stand up and take notice.
How exactly you decide to do this with your meager resources available is entirely up to you, no one is here to hold your hand or tell you how (because if we did we honestly wouldn't be Indie anymore). I am just here to give you a swift kick in the ass and say this:
"Smarten up. Quit bitching about what the AAA industry is saying and make a game already! Push yourself, your team and your resoures to their limits and squeeze ever iota out of it if you want to succeed and be anything more than a hobbiest. You need to find a way to be unique and an angle to compete at a level that you can win at. This is what made the EAs of the world what they are today from their grassroots start as indies and its what will make your team and/or product succeed too if you get off your ass and just do it".
Logan
#18
But Dallman's also right. These guys are somewhat simple minded. They deserve to be blindsided, but it's gotta be done with some craft innovation, not just blood, sweat and tears.
05/18/2005 (8:58 am)
Agreed, Logan. We can't just be counterculture and expect to succeed. We can't act like graphics simply don't matter and that all jokes aside, if a character model has completely photorealistic flowing hair and deep watery eyes, it won't lock the eyes of a potential buyer.But Dallman's also right. These guys are somewhat simple minded. They deserve to be blindsided, but it's gotta be done with some craft innovation, not just blood, sweat and tears.
#19
05/18/2005 (9:02 am)
I still don't understand why you guys care what EA thinks. As Logan, and so many many before him have said... Just make a game... Nothing else matters to you, as an indie, but making and selling your product. If people can sell chocolate covered dung beetles then Im sure you can sell a video game.
#20
-Ajari-
05/18/2005 (9:14 am)
Anyone ever heard of Future Tactics on Xbox PS2 and Game Cube? That game was made by an indie group and it shows. It sold for about $15-$20 and I hear it did pretty well. Alien Homonid was created right down the street from where I live by a small group. They now have their game on PS2 and GC in the US and on Xbox in Europe. They recently had a postmortem article in Game Developer Magazine. Sounds like they did pretty well to me. And that one game Kartma Darmacy or whatever could have been done by many teams on this site. Just don't try to make a game like Kill Zone 2 or Halo 3 with a 7 man team and a budget that can't even get you an item from the Mc Donalds value menu. That guy from EA has no idea what he's talking about.-Ajari-
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