E3 Shader based examples
by Phil Carlisle · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 05/17/2005 (5:14 am) · 48 replies
Well, now that we're seeing past the first-pass shader engines, what does everyone think of the current use of shader tech?
I've been looking at games like Battlefield 2, that new WW2 RTS game by Relic that I can never remember the name of, call of duty 2 etc.
The thing that absolutely scares me to death is the art requirements. I mean Battlefield 2 is just HUGE amounts of content.
But I dont think the shader tech really stands out much there and to be honest I expect that game to not really be so much better (for design and pacing reasons rather than technical).
But look at what most of the engines are doing in terms of tech and maybe we can find some area's of functionality that TSE could look at going forward?
1) Seems to me that instanced geometry and having that handled for things like a cityscape is a good advance. City of Heroes (non shader) does this, but I'm sure GTA4, Battlefield 2 and so on will do that.
2) God of War looks particularly to be pushing the requirements of the hardware. I've seen the UE3 demo and its REALLY pushing current level tech a long way. Mainly just in terms of passes and texture memory.
COD2 seems to be just doing the bog-standard stuff, so thats normal mapped skinned characters with stencil shadows, thats similar to the Relic one (man I can NEVER remember that games name, not a good sign for sales).
So assuming we will see the stenc shadows on normal mapped high-ish-poly characters sometime soon, with nicer terrain and some instanced geometry for the buildings etc, we should be golden!
I'm both underwhelmed with the advances, whilst being blown away at the sheer volume of nice looking assets in these games.
I've been looking at games like Battlefield 2, that new WW2 RTS game by Relic that I can never remember the name of, call of duty 2 etc.
The thing that absolutely scares me to death is the art requirements. I mean Battlefield 2 is just HUGE amounts of content.
But I dont think the shader tech really stands out much there and to be honest I expect that game to not really be so much better (for design and pacing reasons rather than technical).
But look at what most of the engines are doing in terms of tech and maybe we can find some area's of functionality that TSE could look at going forward?
1) Seems to me that instanced geometry and having that handled for things like a cityscape is a good advance. City of Heroes (non shader) does this, but I'm sure GTA4, Battlefield 2 and so on will do that.
2) God of War looks particularly to be pushing the requirements of the hardware. I've seen the UE3 demo and its REALLY pushing current level tech a long way. Mainly just in terms of passes and texture memory.
COD2 seems to be just doing the bog-standard stuff, so thats normal mapped skinned characters with stencil shadows, thats similar to the Relic one (man I can NEVER remember that games name, not a good sign for sales).
So assuming we will see the stenc shadows on normal mapped high-ish-poly characters sometime soon, with nicer terrain and some instanced geometry for the buildings etc, we should be golden!
I'm both underwhelmed with the advances, whilst being blown away at the sheer volume of nice looking assets in these games.
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#2
But it worries me, as far as indie games goes. Because its very heavily content focussed.
So we shouldnt be expecting an indie battlefield anytime soon.
05/17/2005 (6:07 am)
Yeah, I agree. A lot of FPS games (especially since COD and MOHAA) are doing that.But it worries me, as far as indie games goes. Because its very heavily content focussed.
So we shouldnt be expecting an indie battlefield anytime soon.
#3
I'm gonna wait a bit longer before i think about this next generation. I'm not convinced that what we're seeing is actual gameplay or fully representative of the quality of the final games.
05/17/2005 (11:05 am)
@Phil - FYI. The UE3 demo was for "Gears of War"... God of War is a game that reciently shipped for the current generation of consoles.I'm gonna wait a bit longer before i think about this next generation. I'm not convinced that what we're seeing is actual gameplay or fully representative of the quality of the final games.
#4
05/17/2005 (12:26 pm)
Well, that MIGHT work, if we can all do console dev. But sadly, thats not the case.. I would LOVE to work on those machines, but if they wont let me, then I wont bother with em.
#5
I don' tthink that this new stuff will hurt indie developers, we just need to use these new resources, and if anything, use them more creatively, not just to look better than teh next guy.
@Anton: I don't see that the next gen consoles are more advanced than the PC or superior, except in terms of price, which has always been an issuie with PCs...but this has always been an issue with the PC. I'll agree that the gap has shortened greatly, but a well-equipped PC can most likely play many of the games that are being annouced already. It will probably be like that when the next-next gen consoles are announced.
What I don't like is how developers and publishers are shifting away from developing for the PC, to say nothing about so many of the PC-centric developers that went out of business. While business-wise its a logical decision, it seems like rats leaving a sinking ship, but the ship hasn't sunk yet (and you know who the rats are...). In a way, I hope its up to us to be a significant forc ein PC games...
05/17/2005 (12:37 pm)
One thing I find with all of these new technical effects, is that games tend to look a bit alike as they push for photorealism. I look at Quake 4, and henstly, if no one told me, I would have thought it was another add on for Doom 3. As much as I'm interested in Morrowind: Oblivion, it doesn't look all that different from Gothic 3. I won't even get into racing games. Even with all of these new graphical advances, there is something said for artistic design and its role in graphic beauty. In some ways, I like many oif the older games, because that was just about all you had. I don' tthink that this new stuff will hurt indie developers, we just need to use these new resources, and if anything, use them more creatively, not just to look better than teh next guy.
@Anton: I don't see that the next gen consoles are more advanced than the PC or superior, except in terms of price, which has always been an issuie with PCs...but this has always been an issue with the PC. I'll agree that the gap has shortened greatly, but a well-equipped PC can most likely play many of the games that are being annouced already. It will probably be like that when the next-next gen consoles are announced.
What I don't like is how developers and publishers are shifting away from developing for the PC, to say nothing about so many of the PC-centric developers that went out of business. While business-wise its a logical decision, it seems like rats leaving a sinking ship, but the ship hasn't sunk yet (and you know who the rats are...). In a way, I hope its up to us to be a significant forc ein PC games...
#6
;)
05/17/2005 (2:45 pm)
Quake 4 is based on the Doom 3-engine, so it is really just an add-on for Doom 3, and that's why it looks like Doom 3.;)
#7
05/17/2005 (2:59 pm)
Why wouldn't they let you work on em, Phil?
#8
I *might* be able to spam a dev kit, but most wont...
I dont like that.
05/17/2005 (3:13 pm)
Well, its really the closed nature of consoles pat.. not me specifically.I *might* be able to spam a dev kit, but most wont...
I dont like that.
#9
hehe i love home-brew tools and hardware.
05/17/2005 (4:21 pm)
I would love to develop for the consoles, right now im limited to the Nintendo GBA and DS.hehe i love home-brew tools and hardware.
#10
05/17/2005 (10:58 pm)
And the PSP, of course.
#12
(They recently announced support for dual screens on PS3)
05/18/2005 (1:37 am)
Hey, that sounds like a PS2 with a USB mouse... :P(They recently announced support for dual screens on PS3)
#13
I personally would love Sony to release a net Yarozu for the PS3. I think tapping into the Indie dev scene would be a very good move for whatever console company manages to get the tools out first....Oh hang on a second didn't microsoft mention that XNA stuff is PC and XBox 360 compatible and that the live service will work on both by the time longhorn ships.
Damn that Bill Gates is a sly one. Absorb the indies like borg to a home world ;o)
05/18/2005 (6:25 am)
Hmmm Given that both XBox 360 and PSP have way too much power for a console and sony are touting the PS3 as a replacement to the home computer, I wonder if that means we will get to write programs for them? I personally would love Sony to release a net Yarozu for the PS3. I think tapping into the Indie dev scene would be a very good move for whatever console company manages to get the tools out first....Oh hang on a second didn't microsoft mention that XNA stuff is PC and XBox 360 compatible and that the live service will work on both by the time longhorn ships.
Damn that Bill Gates is a sly one. Absorb the indies like borg to a home world ;o)
#14
He seemed to think at least a couple of years.
Now theyre happier for indies to do PS2 stuff, and they would absolutely KILL for indies to do some PS1 games, so maybe thats a market for some people. Personally Ive had enough of the PS1 in my lifetime thanks :)
PSP seemed a bit more of a proposition, but he said that they would need me to produce an absolutely compelling case to get them to consider letting me buy a dev kit :) even under the University banner.
I just find it really strange that these guys wouldnt actively WANT universities to teach people how to develop for thier platforms!!! Imagine teaching XBOX 360 dev how much buy-in students would have for later developing for that platform?
But, we dont make the rules, we just play by em :)
Personally, I'm amazed by the tech, but underwhelmed by the lack of imagination I'm seeing in games.
Look at F.E.A.R for a ultra-generic concept! how can ANYONE expect to make money from such a done-to-death concept!!! hell, then they are playing in the same pond as ID! and we know how monolith struggles in those fights.
05/18/2005 (8:21 am)
I spoke to a Sony dev rep last month about indie devs doing stuff, specifically for PSP but also for PS3. The skinny from him is that its very unlikely that PSP and PS3 dev stuff for indie levels will be available for some considerable time whilst the commercial developers get thier money leeched out of the market before it can be opened up to indies.He seemed to think at least a couple of years.
Now theyre happier for indies to do PS2 stuff, and they would absolutely KILL for indies to do some PS1 games, so maybe thats a market for some people. Personally Ive had enough of the PS1 in my lifetime thanks :)
PSP seemed a bit more of a proposition, but he said that they would need me to produce an absolutely compelling case to get them to consider letting me buy a dev kit :) even under the University banner.
I just find it really strange that these guys wouldnt actively WANT universities to teach people how to develop for thier platforms!!! Imagine teaching XBOX 360 dev how much buy-in students would have for later developing for that platform?
But, we dont make the rules, we just play by em :)
Personally, I'm amazed by the tech, but underwhelmed by the lack of imagination I'm seeing in games.
Look at F.E.A.R for a ultra-generic concept! how can ANYONE expect to make money from such a done-to-death concept!!! hell, then they are playing in the same pond as ID! and we know how monolith struggles in those fights.
#15
05/18/2005 (8:48 am)
@Phil: I have the same underwhelming feeling. Unfortunately, the young kids will go for this type of game before they even consider something like NOLF3. I guess they decided to join the masses, but I bet it will sell. 
#16
Give it a new kind of look, shaders can help you a lot here. The big flashy titles are going for ultra-realism - you can go for a comic book look, or play with filters to get interesting color curves. I haven't seen anyone make a game using "hatch" (sketch) style shading yet, and wow, if someone did it would really stand out.
Shaders aren't something only the top studios can pull off; they're actually pretty easy to write and use once you have a framework set up. It's the million poly characters that are difficult to create; so don't create them! You can make *boxes* that look interesting with the right lighting and shaders applied to them.
05/18/2005 (11:56 am)
I still think indies can produce excellent looking graphics and cool shaders that can attract gamers. Just take the scale down; rather than trying to make lots of stuff half-assed, make just a few things really well. Keep it small, simple and unique. Try and do as few things as possible that large titles are already doing. Make a new experience that gamers can't find elsewhere. Give it a new kind of look, shaders can help you a lot here. The big flashy titles are going for ultra-realism - you can go for a comic book look, or play with filters to get interesting color curves. I haven't seen anyone make a game using "hatch" (sketch) style shading yet, and wow, if someone did it would really stand out.
Shaders aren't something only the top studios can pull off; they're actually pretty easy to write and use once you have a framework set up. It's the million poly characters that are difficult to create; so don't create them! You can make *boxes* that look interesting with the right lighting and shaders applied to them.
#17
I am with you about the art too, because there is no way on earth we could afford to create something like the characters from that gears of war movie.
I'm thinking that we should go for EXACTLY what you mean, the whole "artistic style" sort of thing. I'm not sure about boxes, but I agree completely.
Interestingly enough, Ive seen a sketchy game variant, have a look at NPRQuake for an example. Its actually kinda disturbing :)
What interests me with shaders, it taking things in a more artistic direction, as you say, filters to create more... I dunno "ghostly" effects? or going for more of the style of that game from the makers of Viewtiful Joe? the one where you play the ghost of a wolf?
Isnt it amazing how "generic" the whole things feels though? I mean, gears of war, killzone, FEAR, Quake 4, Doom etc? Its all super-marine-swat-guy vs gargoyle-alien-enemy... bloody well done, but hackneyed as all hell.
05/18/2005 (1:49 pm)
I agree with you about the shaders thing Brian, yeah, using shaders to give a more "individual" look is right.I am with you about the art too, because there is no way on earth we could afford to create something like the characters from that gears of war movie.
I'm thinking that we should go for EXACTLY what you mean, the whole "artistic style" sort of thing. I'm not sure about boxes, but I agree completely.
Interestingly enough, Ive seen a sketchy game variant, have a look at NPRQuake for an example. Its actually kinda disturbing :)
What interests me with shaders, it taking things in a more artistic direction, as you say, filters to create more... I dunno "ghostly" effects? or going for more of the style of that game from the makers of Viewtiful Joe? the one where you play the ghost of a wolf?
Isnt it amazing how "generic" the whole things feels though? I mean, gears of war, killzone, FEAR, Quake 4, Doom etc? Its all super-marine-swat-guy vs gargoyle-alien-enemy... bloody well done, but hackneyed as all hell.
#18
05/18/2005 (2:03 pm)
@Phil - We're doing a sci-fi type of game and it's extremely difficult to not fall back on the style that the Aliens movies pretty much set.
#19
I must admit, if I were to pick a single game type that screams to me "dont touch it with a twenty foot pole" its SCI-FI FPS :)
Unless you can really give me a hook thats totally outside the generic high-production FPS as shown at E3. Like say an exploration based adventure/fps or something unique.
Whats your unique selling point?
05/18/2005 (2:20 pm)
Tom, what game is it your working on"I must admit, if I were to pick a single game type that screams to me "dont touch it with a twenty foot pole" its SCI-FI FPS :)
Unless you can really give me a hook thats totally outside the generic high-production FPS as shown at E3. Like say an exploration based adventure/fps or something unique.
Whats your unique selling point?
#20
Gosh i hope that is soon. =)
05/18/2005 (3:19 pm)
@Phil - It has some FPS parts, but it's not an FPS. It's really a side scroller... but it's not any side scroller anyone has seen before. I haven't found the words to easily describe it yet. We will most likely announce it when our prototype is playable and we can show it.Gosh i hope that is soon. =)
Torque Owner Peter Dwyer
Instanced geometry is another biggie. You may have noticed in some of the demos that the scenes were filled with instanced (correctly lit) geometry making things look far more involved.
Post processing of scenes will also be a big part of things. The effects such as blur, focus etc. etc. are all appearing in the next-gen stuff.
We are getting close to the movie effects feel and I think as a result we now need to be thinking like the movie studios too. Creating and lighting scenes, then having the action take place on those scenes is what I see most at this years E3. Just look at Killzone 2 and battle field for example. Lots of scripted scenes, where the player seems to just be an extra in the action. The main wow point for me is that as an extra you get to shoot the guy who is sniping from the bushes while the main troops carry on rushing along the bridge, river