Solutions for those of us who need artists?
by Josh Albrecht · in General Discussion · 01/09/2002 (6:28 pm) · 19 replies
Almost every developer (mostly coders) that I have talked to here has desperately needed artists (meaning modelers/animators/2d-artists) Now obviously, Garage Games isnt exactly the best place to put a wanted ad for an artists, because very few of them probably come here. As I see it, we need to either:
1. Attract more artists to GG
or
2. Find OTHER places where artists, who are willing to work for free, exist.
Since there isnt really any way to make artists come to GG, we are stuck with the second option. Does anyone know WHERE we could possibly recruit artists? Some popular art websites perhaps? Does anyone see any OTHER way (besides paying because almost no on ecan afford that) to find artists?
1. Attract more artists to GG
or
2. Find OTHER places where artists, who are willing to work for free, exist.
Since there isnt really any way to make artists come to GG, we are stuck with the second option. Does anyone know WHERE we could possibly recruit artists? Some popular art websites perhaps? Does anyone see any OTHER way (besides paying because almost no on ecan afford that) to find artists?
#2
01/09/2002 (6:53 pm)
It might be worth taking the time to look up an instructor who teaches 3D at the local community college or university. 
#3
A slower method is to make friends with 3D people who hang out on the 3D channels on other IRC servers. Note: entering a channel and asking for people does not work, the key is to get familiar with people in the channels and see who bites at the opportunity.
You could also try local 3D user groups or Multimedia/New Media user group that are in your area to see who is interested as well.
The artists are out there (heck I should know I am one of them), but you need to work at interesting them in what you are doing. The failure of most groups is that they blatently ask for help out of the blue and come off being very unprofessional (or newbie).
Logan
01/09/2002 (7:02 pm)
Some other suggestions are...A slower method is to make friends with 3D people who hang out on the 3D channels on other IRC servers. Note: entering a channel and asking for people does not work, the key is to get familiar with people in the channels and see who bites at the opportunity.
You could also try local 3D user groups or Multimedia/New Media user group that are in your area to see who is interested as well.
The artists are out there (heck I should know I am one of them), but you need to work at interesting them in what you are doing. The failure of most groups is that they blatently ask for help out of the blue and come off being very unprofessional (or newbie).
Logan
#4
Alc
01/09/2002 (8:26 pm)
I'm currently taking a Computer Animation program in college and I was considering asking my professor if we could make models for any interested parties here. You have to remember that some of the work that comes out of colleges though might not be top notch and once the program is over you might not be able to get the finished product (people do fail these classes sometimes). I was thinking though that we might be able to make a website were people could grab the models made by the students. A section could be included on the site for requests. The problem with the requests is that requests will only be filled when there is an assignment to do in class. There are a lot of kinks but something might be able to be worked out.Alc
#6
Ryan
just my $.02 on the subject... im not saying every programmer should learn 3dmodeling, but i did, and it works for me
01/09/2002 (10:27 pm)
Or... you could learn modeling... thats what i did. Believe me, i am 100% programmer, but i have played on and off with 3dsmax a little, and i plopped down infront of milkshape on sunday and cranked out a few weapon models, thanks to some tutorials on MS's website. today (wednesday, er, early thurs) i have a decent player model (some animations) going for me. the n00b who understands a little of how to use a 3d modeling program can whip out some models (they may be less than par, but pratice makes less crappy) I can remember less than 1 month ago, i was daunted at what i saw when i opened milkshape, but now, im doing ok. getting more pratice. hey, if you want something done (at all) you might have to do it yourself :) Ryan
just my $.02 on the subject... im not saying every programmer should learn 3dmodeling, but i did, and it works for me
#7
I do know how to model, and am not to bad at it, but I love to code so much more.
I think that after reading through the above methods of recruiting artists, you must admit that currently, there is no simple way to recruit one, even if you are capable, have a good project and/or results. Can anyone think of a way to make this process easier for GG developers, or is it just an inherent difficulty in independent game production?
01/11/2002 (4:01 pm)
Hey, thanks for the response guys... I will check out some IRC channels soon. And yes, i know that you need to befriend them first... :) Some of the "advertising" here is actually rather laughable, like when ads arent even spell checked... :)I do know how to model, and am not to bad at it, but I love to code so much more.
I think that after reading through the above methods of recruiting artists, you must admit that currently, there is no simple way to recruit one, even if you are capable, have a good project and/or results. Can anyone think of a way to make this process easier for GG developers, or is it just an inherent difficulty in independent game production?
#8
1: Tell us what the game is about, what does it look like? Is it greco-roman, post apocalyptic, cyberpunk, cute little pink bunnies:-)? A lot of times I will read game descriptions that are all of 2 sentences with no description other than: sci-fi shooter, swat team mod, uh, kinda like half-life but not, etc.
Like everyone else, an artist likes to work with something that will showcase their talent and interest them. Take the time to figure out what look you want and include it in your description.
2: What do you want? A lot of teams will just say they need a weapons modeler or a character modeler but not go into detail about what they want. "Just make a gun" isn't good enough for an artist. You wouldn't tell a programmer to just make a game engine. Creative input helps a lot. Include some descriptions or even some concept art if you can.
3: We're not superhuman. Most of the job descriptions call for an advanced level 3d artist, texture artist, programmer, superhero who also works for free. Lets face it, you're not going to find many professional calibre artists cruising the classifieds in Garagegames looking for nonpaying jobs. Most artists registered at GG are just like you, a bunch of motivated amateurs who want to break into game design.
01/11/2002 (5:26 pm)
Here are a couple of suggestions on how to attract artists.1: Tell us what the game is about, what does it look like? Is it greco-roman, post apocalyptic, cyberpunk, cute little pink bunnies:-)? A lot of times I will read game descriptions that are all of 2 sentences with no description other than: sci-fi shooter, swat team mod, uh, kinda like half-life but not, etc.
Like everyone else, an artist likes to work with something that will showcase their talent and interest them. Take the time to figure out what look you want and include it in your description.
2: What do you want? A lot of teams will just say they need a weapons modeler or a character modeler but not go into detail about what they want. "Just make a gun" isn't good enough for an artist. You wouldn't tell a programmer to just make a game engine. Creative input helps a lot. Include some descriptions or even some concept art if you can.
3: We're not superhuman. Most of the job descriptions call for an advanced level 3d artist, texture artist, programmer, superhero who also works for free. Lets face it, you're not going to find many professional calibre artists cruising the classifieds in Garagegames looking for nonpaying jobs. Most artists registered at GG are just like you, a bunch of motivated amateurs who want to break into game design.
#9
01/11/2002 (8:01 pm)
I had to jump on here and say that I've been either very lucky or the C3 game design just kicks that much ass...because I've not had any trouble getting responses to my help-wanted ads for artists. Fortunately, I was blessed with some very good help. I'm now in the supposedly enviable position of having a full programming team and art team, and very short on the mapping side.
#10
You might even want to invite your team online so that they can casually talk to the artist and do sort of an in-promptu interview (for both sides). This might make the arist more confortable knowing what they might be getting into and help their decision making process.
Logan
01/12/2002 (9:22 am)
One other thing that artists care about are who the other members of the team are. If they can see that you have serious people who have experiance in their field (ie. they are knowledgable, professional, and/or have worked on a few projects that are similar to this one), you will stand a larger chance of getting them on your team.You might even want to invite your team online so that they can casually talk to the artist and do sort of an in-promptu interview (for both sides). This might make the arist more confortable knowing what they might be getting into and help their decision making process.
Logan
#11
Another good resource is to look at other ads which or company descriptions to get examples. Scott has had success with his ads so that would be a good place to start.
The more professional you seem the better chance that more professional people will some to talk to you.
Alc
01/12/2002 (8:25 pm)
I think, no matter what the possition, people feel more comfortable knowing that the people they are working with are serious about what they are doing. This comes back to creating a good profile for your company here which lists experience and goals. Don't say things like we're not in it to make money even if that is the case. Say something more like "Our primary objective is to learn what it takes to produce a game, and have a good time doing it". The best way to write ads is to think of what would attract you to a job and then include those things. You don't need fancy wording either. Keep it simple. It's easy to tell when an amateur writer is playing up their words in order to sound better, and this is one of the things that makes you seem unprofessional.Another good resource is to look at other ads which or company descriptions to get examples. Scott has had success with his ads so that would be a good place to start.
The more professional you seem the better chance that more professional people will some to talk to you.
Alc
#12
Here is a shot of one weapon model that was done for us by a guy named Berg from the Quake community whose currently project is Quake Annihilation.
01/12/2002 (8:43 pm)
What seems to be working for our development group is pulling some strings into the Quake and Half Life communities. There are some willing and very able people in those communities, and alot of them are willing to do it for nothing more then their name in the credits.Here is a shot of one weapon model that was done for us by a guy named Berg from the Quake community whose currently project is Quake Annihilation.
#13
Thanks a bunch, and good luck with your project!
-Evan
01/12/2002 (9:40 pm)
Wow, nice pic. Just curious, what site(s) do you use to find these people, and what do you look for (aside from skill)? Are the really popular and good people unwilling to jump into a project, or are they perfectly happy to jump in and get their hands dirty?Thanks a bunch, and good luck with your project!
-Evan
#14
Another thing you might try here at GG is releasing a pluggin for exporting to dts from milkshape, a lot of good MS users (modelers) simply cant afford 3ds max, in fact the only successfull way i have found to port to dts is using 3ds max r3, if you released a Milkshape Exporter without having to shell out the 100 bucks for the engine, a lot of milkshape users would probably be interested in becoming active at garage games
01/13/2002 (6:45 am)
here is a link to a community where you will find a lot of modelers that would probably be very interested, http://www.lancersreactor.com/t/Another thing you might try here at GG is releasing a pluggin for exporting to dts from milkshape, a lot of good MS users (modelers) simply cant afford 3ds max, in fact the only successfull way i have found to port to dts is using 3ds max r3, if you released a Milkshape Exporter without having to shell out the 100 bucks for the engine, a lot of milkshape users would probably be interested in becoming active at garage games
#15
However, I belive that the problem is with the AMOUNT of artists that come to GG. I propose running a little experiment. I could create an alter ego for myself, and am run an ad. The ad would offer $100/month to any artist willing to join. That isnt an unreasonable amount, and it is $100/month more than anyone else is offering... :) Now, I would not be serious in this offer. It would be done to see HOW MANY artists currently view the ads. And how could ANY indie artist pass up that opportunity?
I could post the results here. Would GG mind if I created a second account? What do you guys think? It would give us a near perfect count of how many availible artists there are in the GG community.
01/13/2002 (11:39 am)
Cool ideas, and thanks for the link dude. I just thought of a few ingenius ways to get some of the HL and Quake people to help me out... :)However, I belive that the problem is with the AMOUNT of artists that come to GG. I propose running a little experiment. I could create an alter ego for myself, and am run an ad. The ad would offer $100/month to any artist willing to join. That isnt an unreasonable amount, and it is $100/month more than anyone else is offering... :) Now, I would not be serious in this offer. It would be done to see HOW MANY artists currently view the ads. And how could ANY indie artist pass up that opportunity?
I could post the results here. Would GG mind if I created a second account? What do you guys think? It would give us a near perfect count of how many availible artists there are in the GG community.
#16
Why don't you just check those that have indicated that they are an artist in their profile?
01/14/2002 (6:00 am)
It might give us a clear idea of how many visit now, but not how many will keep visiting these ads after they have been burned by your $100 fradulent posting.Why don't you just check those that have indicated that they are an artist in their profile?
#17
If you're lucky you might get a few bites to do a maybe one or two models a month.
Logan
01/14/2002 (7:45 am)
Most serious artists (any artist actually) will consider $100 dollars a "drop in the bucket" and not even worth their time communicating with you. If you're lucky you might get a few bites to do a maybe one or two models a month.
Logan
#18
------
I think it would be better to try and inspire artists as to how cool the game is going to be and to convince them of your ability and professionalism.
Most artists capable of doing the work needed for game development are capable of doing artwork 'professionally' to a greater or lesser extent.
When you read some of the the ideas and take a look at the teams (that are nothing more than a name and a hotmail account) then it makes you wonder if the people behind the game are serious.
This is not saying that there are not serious people here or that the people posting to this thread are not serious, but on average, most of the 'teams' don't come across as serious or capable, and it can scare people (artists) away from all the teams.
I think that if one wants artists, they need to do the extra work to inspire a team and motivate them, regardless of compensation.
Certain ideas here are really cool, and if I could afford the time, I would work on them for free. ( I really like the direction Phil's 'Captain Zap' is going).
There are a large number of artists who visit here and are lurking, waiting for the right opourtunity to pop-up.
The challenge is to make the oppourtunity worthwhile. Is the game getting press? Does it have a website? Is it active in the game community? Who are the team leaders? What do they bring to the table? If I were to work for free, what is in it for me? How will this advance my career ? Will it allow me to learn? Is it going to be fun? Is the team capable of producing a good game?
I have read through just about all of the help wanted ads, and not very many tell very much about the team members or team leaders. I think what a majority of them need is some example of what the team leader has accomplished. Words don't amount to much. Prospects must be able to see something, to play a game (even a rudimentary one) to see that the person promoting themselves as the leader is capable of pulling this off.
I may be a special case, but I am sure others find it insulting when they are asked to submit a portfolio for review for a non-paying job from some faceless person on the other end of a hotmail account who has probably never made a game and who will not respond to my requests for his/her credentails.
Show respect to everyone (especially those that you are asking to do work for free). The people are out here, just waiting for something too cool to pass up.
Joe
01/14/2002 (8:40 am)
I would have to agree with Logan on this one. $100 a month is something I would consider insulting if someone expected me to produce a ton of work, and I don't think it will actually result in finding out how many artists are here, as many will not respond to a helpwanted post that offered so little. ------
I think it would be better to try and inspire artists as to how cool the game is going to be and to convince them of your ability and professionalism.
Most artists capable of doing the work needed for game development are capable of doing artwork 'professionally' to a greater or lesser extent.
When you read some of the the ideas and take a look at the teams (that are nothing more than a name and a hotmail account) then it makes you wonder if the people behind the game are serious.
This is not saying that there are not serious people here or that the people posting to this thread are not serious, but on average, most of the 'teams' don't come across as serious or capable, and it can scare people (artists) away from all the teams.
I think that if one wants artists, they need to do the extra work to inspire a team and motivate them, regardless of compensation.
Certain ideas here are really cool, and if I could afford the time, I would work on them for free. ( I really like the direction Phil's 'Captain Zap' is going).
There are a large number of artists who visit here and are lurking, waiting for the right opourtunity to pop-up.
The challenge is to make the oppourtunity worthwhile. Is the game getting press? Does it have a website? Is it active in the game community? Who are the team leaders? What do they bring to the table? If I were to work for free, what is in it for me? How will this advance my career ? Will it allow me to learn? Is it going to be fun? Is the team capable of producing a good game?
I have read through just about all of the help wanted ads, and not very many tell very much about the team members or team leaders. I think what a majority of them need is some example of what the team leader has accomplished. Words don't amount to much. Prospects must be able to see something, to play a game (even a rudimentary one) to see that the person promoting themselves as the leader is capable of pulling this off.
I may be a special case, but I am sure others find it insulting when they are asked to submit a portfolio for review for a non-paying job from some faceless person on the other end of a hotmail account who has probably never made a game and who will not respond to my requests for his/her credentails.
Show respect to everyone (especially those that you are asking to do work for free). The people are out here, just waiting for something too cool to pass up.
Joe
#19
I agree with you guys that alot of the stuff here seems pretty amatuer, and I see exactly where artists are coming from if they are scared to join a team like that. Thanks alot for the suggestions guys! :)
I think I need to respectfully disagree when you say that the artists are just lurking, waiting for a great game design. While there are obviously some that are doing this, I doubt that the number is significant. Maybe some of them are also waiting for a team to show some results. Maybe some are waiting to get paid. Plus, everyone's idea of a good game design is different. To me, Captain Zap is not appealing. I mean no disrepect to Phil Carlise, its just that to me, personally, the idea is good, but not enough so to make me want to run to him and beg to join his team... :)
01/14/2002 (2:36 pm)
Hey thanks guys. I didnt mean for the offer to be insulting... I thought it would seem nice to some amatuer artists, because if they are doing it for money, they probalby shouldnt be here right now... :) I havent seen a single ad offering anything, so it just seemed to me that offering something would indicate a bit of dedication... I guess not! :)I agree with you guys that alot of the stuff here seems pretty amatuer, and I see exactly where artists are coming from if they are scared to join a team like that. Thanks alot for the suggestions guys! :)
I think I need to respectfully disagree when you say that the artists are just lurking, waiting for a great game design. While there are obviously some that are doing this, I doubt that the number is significant. Maybe some of them are also waiting for a team to show some results. Maybe some are waiting to get paid. Plus, everyone's idea of a good game design is different. To me, Captain Zap is not appealing. I mean no disrepect to Phil Carlise, its just that to me, personally, the idea is good, but not enough so to make me want to run to him and beg to join his team... :)
Associate Anthony Rosenbaum
Anthony