A few general questions...
by James Polston · in General Discussion · 05/11/2005 (9:01 pm) · 10 replies
I have taken the step to buy Torque, finally. I dont have the money for it yet, but I will in a few weeks. So I figured I could get some modeling done so that once I have the money for Torque I will have something to start off with, ok; here are my questions. btw, it will be a mmorpg, similar to planetside.
- How many polys can Torque handle? For example, what would be the highest amount of polys a character should be, givin that there will be many at one time ( mmorpg ). Vehicles poly count? buildings? ( this is very important because I want to have some stuff modeled before I get the engine. )
- I read somewhere on the site that Torque can handle from 2 - 225 ppl on one server, is 225 the max it can handle, or has that number increased?
- In the demos' I have played that have vehicles, you control the direction of the vehicle goes via the mouse, is it possible to change this so that, for example "a" is left. "s" is down/back. "d" is right. and "w" is up/forward?
- texture size. What are the texture sizes used in Torque? 256x256, 512x512, or bigger, or does it not matter?
- maps. How are the maps made? are they made via a modeling progam such as 3DS MAX or is there a program I must use to map for Torque, I prefer modeling everything in MAX if that is possible!
- Sound. Does Torque use .mp3 ; .wav ; Or can it handle both?
- Saved experience. Since I am wanting to make an mmorpg, the player's stats would be kept on the server, is it possible with Torque to do this? For istance, I join a game, kill 25 people and gain exp. I log out. The next day I log back in and I still have my exp. I know this would also requre that the player make a account that is saved on the server as well. I just wanted to know if this is possible with Torque.
= Thanks very very much for any of the help you can give me, I really really appreciate it.
- How many polys can Torque handle? For example, what would be the highest amount of polys a character should be, givin that there will be many at one time ( mmorpg ). Vehicles poly count? buildings? ( this is very important because I want to have some stuff modeled before I get the engine. )
- I read somewhere on the site that Torque can handle from 2 - 225 ppl on one server, is 225 the max it can handle, or has that number increased?
- In the demos' I have played that have vehicles, you control the direction of the vehicle goes via the mouse, is it possible to change this so that, for example "a" is left. "s" is down/back. "d" is right. and "w" is up/forward?
- texture size. What are the texture sizes used in Torque? 256x256, 512x512, or bigger, or does it not matter?
- maps. How are the maps made? are they made via a modeling progam such as 3DS MAX or is there a program I must use to map for Torque, I prefer modeling everything in MAX if that is possible!
- Sound. Does Torque use .mp3 ; .wav ; Or can it handle both?
- Saved experience. Since I am wanting to make an mmorpg, the player's stats would be kept on the server, is it possible with Torque to do this? For istance, I join a game, kill 25 people and gain exp. I log out. The next day I log back in and I still have my exp. I know this would also requre that the player make a account that is saved on the server as well. I just wanted to know if this is possible with Torque.
= Thanks very very much for any of the help you can give me, I really really appreciate it.
#2
We can't answer this for you. You almost answered it yourself; it depends on how many other characters are visible at once, as well as how detailed your interiors are, and other factors - which we won't know.. and which you will know in time or if you plan ahead of your development.
You could make a interiorbuilding insanely advanced, and only be able to place a few more player models.. or you could make it less advanced and put alot more characters in there.
Balance it and try to find a "golden range". You don't need to buy a license to import objects and buildings, so go ahead and try how it works before you buy it.
Of course it also depends on the computer which is running the game.
It can handle as many players as your server and game can handle. You need to tweak some values and the ID generator, if I remember correctly.
Yes. Check out the bindings inside TGE (script-based, so no need for source here either).
For terrain it is limited to 256x256 with the ASM blender, and 512x512 with the C blender. But in general, 256x256 is what you're going to use unless you want to recode. Interiors have no real upper limit, AFAIK; but you'll get problems above 1024x1024 I think. Same with shapes/models.
You can make them in 3DSMax but it's not very effective nor easy. Many use QuaRK (Quake Army Knife) or Cartographer. In time, GarageGames will release their own tool for this, that will be customised for Torque.
Wav and Ogg.
Sincerely, if you do have to ask this question.. then maybe you should start somewhere else before doing this task. If you have to ask it, then it's probably too much for you to handle. There are many ways to save experience and other persistant variables.. you'll need the source for this though, unless you want to save everything trough scripts on the server.
A database would be good use for this. Each time a player logs on, it reads all it's variables before creating the player. Then the player logs off and before the server cleans up the player and it's stats, it is saved to the database.
05/12/2005 (2:51 am)
Quote:
- How many polys can Torque handle? For example, what would be the highest amount of polys a character should be, givin that there will be many at one time ( mmorpg ). Vehicles poly count? buildings? ( this is very important because I want to have some stuff modeled before I get the engine. )
We can't answer this for you. You almost answered it yourself; it depends on how many other characters are visible at once, as well as how detailed your interiors are, and other factors - which we won't know.. and which you will know in time or if you plan ahead of your development.
You could make a interiorbuilding insanely advanced, and only be able to place a few more player models.. or you could make it less advanced and put alot more characters in there.
Balance it and try to find a "golden range". You don't need to buy a license to import objects and buildings, so go ahead and try how it works before you buy it.
Of course it also depends on the computer which is running the game.
Quote:
- I read somewhere on the site that Torque can handle from 2 - 225 ppl on one server, is 225 the max it can handle, or has that number increased?
It can handle as many players as your server and game can handle. You need to tweak some values and the ID generator, if I remember correctly.
Quote:
- In the demos' I have played that have vehicles, you control the direction of the vehicle goes via the mouse, is it possible to change this so that, for example "a" is left. "s" is down/back. "d" is right. and "w" is up/forward?
Yes. Check out the bindings inside TGE (script-based, so no need for source here either).
Quote:
- texture size. What are the texture sizes used in Torque? 256x256, 512x512, or bigger, or does it not matter?
For terrain it is limited to 256x256 with the ASM blender, and 512x512 with the C blender. But in general, 256x256 is what you're going to use unless you want to recode. Interiors have no real upper limit, AFAIK; but you'll get problems above 1024x1024 I think. Same with shapes/models.
Quote:
- maps. How are the maps made? are they made via a modeling progam such as 3DS MAX or is there a program I must use to map for Torque, I prefer modeling everything in MAX if that is possible!
You can make them in 3DSMax but it's not very effective nor easy. Many use QuaRK (Quake Army Knife) or Cartographer. In time, GarageGames will release their own tool for this, that will be customised for Torque.
Quote:
- Sound. Does Torque use .mp3 ; .wav ; Or can it handle both?
Wav and Ogg.
Quote:
- Saved experience. Since I am wanting to make an mmorpg, the player's stats would be kept on the server, is it possible with Torque to do this? For istance, I join a game, kill 25 people and gain exp. I log out. The next day I log back in and I still have my exp. I know this would also requre that the player make a account that is saved on the server as well. I just wanted to know if this is possible with Torque.
Sincerely, if you do have to ask this question.. then maybe you should start somewhere else before doing this task. If you have to ask it, then it's probably too much for you to handle. There are many ways to save experience and other persistant variables.. you'll need the source for this though, unless you want to save everything trough scripts on the server.
A database would be good use for this. Each time a player logs on, it reads all it's variables before creating the player. Then the player logs off and before the server cleans up the player and it's stats, it is saved to the database.
#3
Just want to make this clear; the netcode in Torque is not something you pay extra for, it's in the same package and works out of the box. What Paul probably means is that the standalone network engine is extra.. but this is not something you will be interested in buying, if you're getting TGE. The indie license can be used by "corporations" as long as they don't make more cash than a certain amount (which you shouldn't have to worry about right now).
05/12/2005 (2:51 am)
Quote:
Paul Zakar said:
PS. The torque indie license only costs $100, and its the full version, its just not for corporations, I dont know if you were looking at the commercial license or not, and also the netcode is extra, and there's other resources. Also if you're working on a mmorpg, you'll have to do a lot of code to change the torque from a fps style engine, to encapsulate a lot of mmorpg functions, just letting you know.
Just want to make this clear; the netcode in Torque is not something you pay extra for, it's in the same package and works out of the box. What Paul probably means is that the standalone network engine is extra.. but this is not something you will be interested in buying, if you're getting TGE. The indie license can be used by "corporations" as long as they don't make more cash than a certain amount (which you shouldn't have to worry about right now).
#4
05/12/2005 (4:29 am)
WOW!, This community is so awsome! I appreciate everything you guys have told me, 100 bucks? Awsome, I should be able to get it by the end of the week ( money is tight right now. ) Once again, I really appreciate it!
#5
- The number of players Torque can handle is 255 or 256, but this is soft capped. You can increase this number by modifying a line or two of code in the engine. It is from there hardware bound. You need a fat pipe (bandwidth) and a fast processor. EVE online doesn't support more than 256 players per star system in their MMORPG, so Torque should do fine if you design with that in mind. You would then run multiple server processes on a single SMP (dual/quad cpu) server or on several servers depending on how massive you want it to be.
- You can change everything in Torque, including user input controls and behaviour.
- Most cards have limitations on how big the textures may be. Most I've seen support 2048x2048 textures. I don't know if there's any reason Torque wouldn't allow those too.
- Look around the GG site, search the forums etc. There are many tools available for Torque mapping and modeling.
- Torque may use a number of formats, wav, ogg vorvis, mp3, and you can add support for more later because you'll have the entire source code.
- For a presistant world you will have to put in some database support. There are resources on GG site
available for you to do this or to look at for reference in implementing your own database solution.
05/12/2005 (4:57 am)
- Depends on number on screen. Todays low-end graphics adapter should cope with 20-30 million polys on screen, mid range will handle around 100-150 million polys on screen, and high end card might do something like 200-300 polygons. These are numbers taken around from the net and should be treated as hear say. The actual real life numbers will be lower. I suggest shaving off 50% for a smoother ride.- The number of players Torque can handle is 255 or 256, but this is soft capped. You can increase this number by modifying a line or two of code in the engine. It is from there hardware bound. You need a fat pipe (bandwidth) and a fast processor. EVE online doesn't support more than 256 players per star system in their MMORPG, so Torque should do fine if you design with that in mind. You would then run multiple server processes on a single SMP (dual/quad cpu) server or on several servers depending on how massive you want it to be.
- You can change everything in Torque, including user input controls and behaviour.
- Most cards have limitations on how big the textures may be. Most I've seen support 2048x2048 textures. I don't know if there's any reason Torque wouldn't allow those too.
- Look around the GG site, search the forums etc. There are many tools available for Torque mapping and modeling.
- Torque may use a number of formats, wav, ogg vorvis, mp3, and you can add support for more later because you'll have the entire source code.
- For a presistant world you will have to put in some database support. There are resources on GG site
available for you to do this or to look at for reference in implementing your own database solution.
#6
Torque does not support mp3 since that requires an additional licensing fee. Adding mp3 support should be fairly straightforward but the built in ogg support should be more than sufficient for your needs (think of it as a license free mp3).
The polycounts that Anders quoted are way, way unrealistic even at 50% since those are theoretical throughput limits for untextured and optimized polygons for those cards. A typical Torque scene on an average video card is going to have a maximum "limit" of nearer to 10K-30K polys in view at any given time. Keep in mind that Torque doesn't render things that aren't in view and has a very nice LOD system to help keep the polycounts reasonable so your "total" polycount for the scene is going to be a bit higher. If I were building an MMORPG I would aim for player models having an upper limit of 2K polys at their highest LOD and quickly dropping off for each LOD afterward. Vehicles would be similar, weapons would be half that (or less), monsters would be 2/3rds that.
05/12/2005 (6:01 am)
There is no "soft capped" limit on the number of players. It is totally dependent on your bandwidth and server capabilities 256 playrs is a "realistic limit" given most server/bandwidth setups these days. Out of the box Torque is geared towards a first person shooter bandwidth usage which caters towards high precision, accurate collision of rapidly moving objects. In an MMORPG this level of networked precision is simply not needed and with a bit of tuning you can push far more than 256 players. There is a "soft capped" limit on the number of objects that can exist in the world but that is easily increased.Torque does not support mp3 since that requires an additional licensing fee. Adding mp3 support should be fairly straightforward but the built in ogg support should be more than sufficient for your needs (think of it as a license free mp3).
The polycounts that Anders quoted are way, way unrealistic even at 50% since those are theoretical throughput limits for untextured and optimized polygons for those cards. A typical Torque scene on an average video card is going to have a maximum "limit" of nearer to 10K-30K polys in view at any given time. Keep in mind that Torque doesn't render things that aren't in view and has a very nice LOD system to help keep the polycounts reasonable so your "total" polycount for the scene is going to be a bit higher. If I were building an MMORPG I would aim for player models having an upper limit of 2K polys at their highest LOD and quickly dropping off for each LOD afterward. Vehicles would be similar, weapons would be half that (or less), monsters would be 2/3rds that.
#7
I was going to choose Torque or Cipher, I am glad I chose this! ^_^
05/12/2005 (1:07 pm)
Ah, I see, thanks you 2. This community is one of the reasons why I chose torque, its such a great one with an abundant amount of resources and help. I was going to choose Torque or Cipher, I am glad I chose this! ^_^
#8
05/17/2005 (4:30 am)
@ Stefan: Actually I didnt know the torque came with the netcode, I havent needed networking for anything yet. Thanks :)
#9
Ah. Well TNL (the standalone networking code) is for projects that don't use the Torque platform.
So if you would want to use.. for example, one of the opensource engines out there.. but still use Torque's excellent networking model, you could license it.
If you use TGE, it's already there :) And works very well, try it! It's so much fun to see two clients connected to a server when everything works.
05/17/2005 (9:44 am)
Paul,Ah. Well TNL (the standalone networking code) is for projects that don't use the Torque platform.
So if you would want to use.. for example, one of the opensource engines out there.. but still use Torque's excellent networking model, you could license it.
If you use TGE, it's already there :) And works very well, try it! It's so much fun to see two clients connected to a server when everything works.
#10
05/17/2005 (8:48 pm)
Sounds like fun, I wrote some basic networking code for a chat program, but when it comes to games, I've never been big into the playing online thing. (I know, I'm going to get shot for saying that). I'll have to check out some of the netcode resources. Thanks. :) 
Torque Owner Paul Zakar
4. I believe the texture sizes either dont matter, or there are lots of options.
5. The Torque engine has a built in Mission Editor
http://www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/general/ch04.php
6. Torque uses OpenAL http://www.openal.org/
7. I'm pretty sure, yes, you just have to code it into the engine.
PS. The torque indie license only costs $100, and its the full version, its just not for corporations, I dont know if you were looking at the commercial license or not, and also the netcode is extra, and there's other resources. Also if you're working on a mmorpg, you'll have to do a lot of code to change the torque from a fps style engine, to encapsulate a lot of mmorpg functions, just letting you know.
Hope I helped.