Intellectual property... to what extent?

#41 Was looking at the game development books yesterday and found "Character Development and Storytelling for Games" by Lee Sheldon. It's a pretty good book in my opinion. He's written about one of the topics we've been discussing here, that is, story first or game play first? He believes that both should take place together. A lot of good information in his book. There is so much knowledge out there to sort through, I only hope I can glean a useful tidbit here and there to make something good.

#42 You should read up on intellectual property law.

There is nothing stopping you from creating a sci-fi desert planet.

There is very little original content on Tatooine aside from the alien species and tech (speeders, etc.); the buildings and landscapes are all standard Earth stuff.

Most people err waaay on the side of caution with IP because of lawyers, but that isn't necessary much of the time. You have to get pretty damn close to get burned (a la Underworld ripping off White Wolf Games).

edit: plus let's remember than Underworld settled out of court and brought White Wolf on as consultants for Underworld II as a result; that's hardly a bad thing for them as nobody has the inside track on oversaturating a world with vampiric motifs like WW)

#43 Steven Mello - your game idea sounds cool to me. I also like your opinions about game design. I think that you have a pretty damn good grasp of everything.

I hear a lot of people around here tell people how to make their game like there is some kind of tried and proven way to make a game when as far as I have seen from reading what game developers say about it that there are 1001 different ways to go about it.

I think it's like other forms of art. One painter starts a portrait with eyes and another with the nose. I think that as long as you like what you make it doesn't matter how you made it. If you feel like you need to start with the story... I think you know what is best for you.

It's funny... games are such a mix of art and science, which may be two sides of the same coin anyway, that I find that many scientists(programmers) try to approach art the way they do programming. Plan it and make it. You can do art that way. But, if you ask most artists you will find that they start with just an idea of what they are making but that it is during the making itself that the artist discovers what it will finally be.

I think that you can plan game play in an abstract way... but you have to start playing to really discover what the game play is going to be if you want it to be fun. Some people are so good at imagining game play that they can visualize it well enough even before playing it, but those are the geniuses. Everyone else has to play to figure it out.

If you are making a game where the story is the most important element... you probably need your story first. I know most say make the game play first... but they don't get the fact that the story IS game play. Nobody reads a story book just to read. It's for the story.

I think you are right on track for the kind of game you are making. I also think that your type of game is the FAR more mature game to make. Yeah, we all like action movies... but can we all agree that they are the most simple and immature type of movie that there is.

I think that someday computer games will be as mature as books and movies... probably more than movies. I think it's funny when I hear or read someone trying to draw a line of distinction between games and movies and books... because they are missing the point of movies and books... they are role playing games.

Just my rambling two cents.

#44 Steven - With all due respects to the good advice that has been given here I'd like to slam a few, boost a few, if you know what I mean, lol. Lets just get this simple part out of the way first...

Quote:story first or game play first?

What if there is no story? Not every game needs a story. If however you want to tell a story, I believe your story should come first, and then you should build your game to follow that story. IMO the story can force you to be more creative with your gameplay than you might have been otherwise.


As for borrowing ideas, I can see where your coming from in a lot of ways. Using Star Wars as an example, there are hundreds of scenes that are mere seconds long. Almost unnoticible in the grand scheme, yet any one of them might spark an entire universe in your own mind. Nothing wrong with that. Would I build it? Hell yeah! Because some of my best code to date was spawned in my head while I was completely involved with coding something else. Sometimes I have to stop what I'm doing, open a new file and start dropping ideas into it to come back to later. I believe you can be more creative while in the ACT of being creative. The mind needs excercise just like any other muscle in the body. So many people misunderstand that concept. If you do not practice your skills, you can lose them, or at least diminish them to the point of being very awkward. But excersising your mind(repetition/practice) always leads to better things. If you started on your Star Wars infringing idea right now, I'd bet good money you would have your own better idea before you were even half way done, and by then, your skills will be better suited for you to express your idea.

I leave you with this final thought...

How many great bands started out with some guys playing cover tunes together?

#45

Quote:
I believe most of us take ideas from others games/movies/books when we are coming up with our own ideas.

No.

Granted, I am shocked and amazed when I see something strikingly similar to an idea. I came up with Mouxim a while ago, but only recently have I seen The Butterfly Effect, which is the closet thing to the gameplay and style of stories. Sometimes, we seem to copy general themes (a desert theme, for example, on tatooine) but as long as you make it something unique apart from the general similarities, everything's fine!

- Ronixus

#46 That's why I love this GG community so much! Lots of great ideas, support and true criticism.

The funny thing about the story is that its been unfolding the more I plan the game. The story I'm working on is part back-story and story that will reveal itself as the game plays on. Now, I suppose you could still play the game and not worry about the story, but my reasoning to include the story is to give the players something to fight for. You see, in my story both sides think they are on the "right" team. Of course, only I will know the truth until it all plays out (maybe at some point). That idea came from Star Wars. The Empire and the Rebellion. The Empire thinks they are on the right side and see the rebellion as something they need to wipe-out. The Rebels on the other hand aren't against all the people who make up the Empire but they actually see the Emperor for who he is (evil Sith).

My story isn't quite like that. It's just that the sides both think they are right based on their point-of-view. So the story will give reasons for each to continue the fight. Fighting for their point-of-view.

I'm going to go with the way I want to do this, that is, get a good outline of the world and what's in it and then start planning out the content and mechanics from there. The main point is my son and myself are learning some things in the process and its kinda fun! I don't have really any training in writing, heck, I don't have any official computer training either. I'm self-taught in most of everything in my life. The end result, learn something and have fun doing it.

I thank you all for your support and comments. It's good to be able to listen to all sides of an argument before making your own informed decision.

#47 A friend from ******** ********, LLC. was recently in contact with Lucas Arts to talk about using the art for a project.
Let me put it this way, they contacted Mr. Lucas himself.
And he is very picky.
You should research copyright law.
Every piece of art has a copyright, regardless of the name.
I'm not sure but I think a 70% similarity will get you sued in a court of law.
Having a desert planet is not a problem.
I'm sure you have seen Dune.
Having an underdog fight an evil empire is not a problem.
America Vs. England, heck, just open a world history book.
As for the creatures...
There are a million sci-fi authors out there.
Zelazny, etc.
Basically what I'm trying to say, is if you go out of your way and attempt the 30% change and STEAL from Lucas Arts, George's lawyers (Nova Troopers) will pull up in limos (ATSTs) and ruin your life (PWNED!1!1!!!).
And all your hard work got you was a quick trip to the cloner, and even then you wake up with a black ham bar.
Don't do that to yourself.
How about this, use some imagination instead.
If you make a slimmed SWG rip-off (I doubt you have the resources of SOE and Lucas Arts, maybe I'm wrong) it won't be much better than a knock-off Rolex (does it self wind?).
Come up with something new, it will help your game 100 fold.
Even if what you are creating isn't as feature rich as the "big guys" the fact that you have something new and exciting might just get you a following and turn you into the next ID Software (Doom).
I do understand the fact that SOE pulls in over $2,000,000 US a month from SWG alone and that the CU sucked makes it very tempting to rip them off.
Maybe contact the people of Dune, since that one hasn't been done and jump right in with the "big guys".
Morale of my story is:
"Those who can do, those who can't steal."
That is why I BUY alot of my art. :)

P.S. I hope you didn't open up Jedi Academy, rename the PAK3 file to .zip, extract all the files and think you are going to make a game with the art.

#48 On the positive side, everyone is influenced by their surroundings.
In fact, architecture and animals are also influenced by their environment.
I imagine a desert world would have alot of curves in the architecure to prevent errosion from sand storms.
So, being influenced is normal, and sometimes considered a form of flattery.
Tremmors, Dune, The Road Warrior, Solar Babies, etc. etc.
Research is good, but be very careful.
Unique is always better.
If you see a Storm Trooper, you know it's from the master of THX.
Art is recognized, be creative and make the whole world recognize you when they see a single image.
Laura Croft, etc.
The art can make you known.
So be original.

#49 I hope that sums up your question.
I personally have been influenced by Ghost in The Shell, CyberPunk 2.0, everything William Gibson ever wrote, Mad Max, Blade Runner and much much more.
I have a piece of advice that may be a good excercise for you and your kid (as well as all Indie Game Developers).
There is a sci-fi book called "Burning Chrome".
It is filled with short stories, many of which became movies.
William Gibson's "Johnny Nuemonic" became a movie.
William Gibson's "New Rose Hotel" became a movie.
Philip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" became Blade Runner.
Etc, etc.
Try writing a few short stories with your kid.
Keep them about 3-20 pages.
Anything that you two come up with that seems unique or has "edge" or just feels right, should be read by someone outside your immediate home.
Try and get at least two people that are near you and your kid's age.
I learned this exercise from watching my mother who is a writer/publisher.
Plus, your kid can save them and turn them in for english credit. :)
Hope I was helpful and didn't harm any visions/dreams.
Best of Luck.

"Measure twice, cut once." Molly Millions, Burning Chrome.

P.s. These posts were as much for me as they were for you.
I play Star Wars Galaxies (3 Characters) daily.

#50 Wow, that's a lot of reading! :)

No, I guess my original post was worded poorly.

I'm definately not trying to create an MMORPG (I'm not that naive) and don't think I'll be making a game with the scope and quality that a company such as SOE can pump out.

Here's the reason for the initial post:

My son has a great imagination, but unfortunately or fortunately like me, he's been influenced by Star Wars and similar type books, movies and television shows. Among other things, he's been working on some mech type vehicles that will be used in the game and guess where he got the idea on what he wanted them to look like? The Star Wars ATST (little chicken-leg walkers).

That is what prompted me to ask the question of how similar can you get to Star Wars in parts without getting a call from the lawyers. I think I've got him to re-think the chicken-legg aspects of the mech though :)

I know you guys and gals get so many of the same types of questions and I've seen them myself, a non-programmer or artist posts that he/she wants to create an MMORPG for their first type of game! :)

I'm just a UNIX IT guy trying to have a little fun and help his son learn something that may be useful to him later in life. If we happen to create something that generates a few bucks on the side then that is an added bonus to this whole project! :) It's my son who actually wants to try and sell the game. I'm a little more real about the whole thing but again don't want to stiffle his creativity. Who am I to say that it can't be done! Lots of things are possible if you want it enough in this world.

The world I'm creating has influences from many sci-fi worlds one of them being Star Wars. I liked Tatooine so that's why its on the desert planet. Han Solo was my favorite character from Star Wars, so guess what, we are having a Smuggler type profession in the game if I can figure out how to work it.

George Lucas himself based Star Wars (among other influences) from a Japanese Samurai film called "The Hidden Fortress". That's what I'm doing. Using ideas and piecing together a world of my own (and my sons) creation.

And Ari, don't worry, you didn't ruin any vision. It's still there. The story part is more for me than my son, he could care less about that part. As typical of other pre-teens, he justs want to shoot stuff and blow things up! I'm helping him more with the art side as that's what seems to be his forte. He's not much interested in learning to code yet.

This thread has helped quite a bit. And again, I thank everyone who has taken the time to read and post in it. I use several MMORPG's as a learning environment. I created characters in SWG, EQ2, WoW and GW. We use them to get a professional example of how the game environments should be created. I'm more interested in how the game is put together than actually playing the games for the most part (unfortunately not my son though). I don't maintain month to month subscriptions to them, I just renew when I need to check something out that isn't covered in the numerous screenshots I've collected from them.

#51 Most of my life I have learned by modding/researching other people's work.
A good place for 3D art is TurboSquid.
They have many, many formats and they have a "free" section that has to be seen to be believed.
Be sure to check the author's notes on each model to verify that it is royalty free.

#52 I'll give it a look.

Thanks for the tip Ari.

#53 Just payin' it forward. :)