Intellectual property... to what extent?

#1 You cant make tatooine, call it something else, and expect noone will notice... If you want to make a desert planet with uniqe creatures then go for it... Why would you want to copy someone elses idea anyways ? Make your own creative world

#2 Well, I'm not saying just change the name so-to-speak. I like the possibilities that a world such as Tatooine provides. I believe most of us take ideas from others games/movies/books when we are coming up with our own ideas. Its like business ideas. Its hard to come up with an idea to make money that someone else hasn't already thought of. Its hard to come up with something truly unique because my mind is already filled with ideas from Star Wars, Star Trek, Dune and every other SciFi movie/book/game I've been exposed to.

The world would be similar. Why? Because I like that world. I'm not talking about stuff like taking the name Tatooine and changing a few letters and calling it something. It would be unique, however, people who've seen Star Wars could see where the game has been influenced. I've got a game idea that I would like to see through and I'm thinking that others who like Star Wars would be able to see a similarity and may be attracted to the game as well.

Is that wrong? Not the right thing to do? I just find it hard to believe that people who create games don't take from ideas others have created and then build upon it.

#3 I dont know about you, but the best games I have seen had no direct influences. They were just a product of someones imagination... Aak anyone and they will tell you not to make a game that you describe by talking about someone elses game...

Take the creative freedom you have and utilize it to the best of your ability. Making a Starwars like desert planet is just another flavour of boring... Make something that is your own. If you really want a desert planet then make it completely special in some way. Don't use other peoples ideas.

#4 Just some thoughts -

Often it seems we are influenced by things we don't even recognize as the influence to an action or creative development. Star Wars had influences. Very very few things are completely original (if any at all) anymore. I'm not saying those ideas shouldn't be credited to the person, just that we should keep in mind there are immense ammounts of influences, things that give us ideas even when we don't register them, its not a bad thing though. In some cases no use re-inventing the wheel, in some others its great to add that unique aspect to your game. I personally don't think any singular idea is completely original anymore (well for the most part), but the application and compilation of multiple ones... I think how you execute it makes it original and your work, not that you came up with it :)

Though I completely agree with

Quote:make it completely special in some way.

#5 Yes, I can agree that nothing is truely original, our thoughts are influenced.... But to say "I want to make tatooine but with darker sand and called something else." is not the same thing. It's not an influence, its a manipulated copy.

#6 @Chris,

I can see your point. I guess I should probably say that it was influenced by Tatooine then. Maybe I'm just not as imaginative as I thought. What I tend to do is build on what others have started. In the game, and intellectual property world I guess this is not a good thing because of lawsuits etc..

Though even Lucas took his ideas from what came before. Star Wars among other influences, was based on a Japanese Samurai movie called "The Hidden Fortrace". Granted Star Wars looks nothing like that Samurai movie (well maybe Jedi could be close) but the idea came from it.

I'm not a professional game developer, obviously. Just a hobbyist. I've been messing with Torque for a while now. Mostly started learning Torque to be able to explain games creation to my son who has expressed an interest.

He also tends to come up with ideas that are basically taken from other movies, t.v. etc.. that he has been exposed to.

#7 Steven, I dont mean to offend you... Just trying to help you realize that as an Indie there is no reason to copy anyhting... We need to make something original to stand out (We posess creative freedom that bigger companies dont)

If you like the tatooine ideals (what a desert planet offers) then build a game based around a desert planet... There are tonnes of things you could do... You could make sand swimming vehicles (swim through the samd like its water) ... Sand people that are made of sand. . . Houses and entire cities made of sand (and privvy to strong winds destroying buildings) ... These are just ideas (probably bad ones) but my point is that that is nothing like star wars.. and in fact you wouldnt even be able to draw a comparison... Sure the influence is there, but its no longer tatooine with different creatures.


Hek you can even make it sometihng entirely obscure but still hold the idea of a desert planet

#8 Well, I definately had no intention of this:

Quote:Yes, I can agree that nothing is truely original, our thoughts are influenced.... But to say "I want to make tatooine but with darker sand and called something else." is not the same thing. It's not an influence, its a manipulated copy.

I guess my original post wasn't worded properly to convey what I was thinking. It would definately have concepts or influences from Star Wars but not a copy with the names changed and slight modifications to the designs.

#9 @Steven, I know, but making a game in hopes of drawing Star wars fans (when your game is not star wars) means that your game is too close (IMO)... besides, if you draw start wars fans from star wars games you wil get your butt sued off..

#10

Quote:Steven, I dont mean to offend you... Just trying to help you realize that as an Indie there is no reason to copy anyhting... We need to make something original to stand out (We posess creative freedom that bigger companies dont)

Don't worry Chris, I post with the knowledge that others may not feel the same way I do about the particular subject. Usually I try to hold back on posting something until I've thought about it a little.

This is the reason I posted on the subject, I wanted to know what you have to say.

#11 Well, have you thought about what you could do with a game based entirely around a desert planet ? It could make for a very interesting game (and possibly with very few art assets)

#12

Quote:@Steven, I know, but making a game in hopes of drawing Star wars fans (when your game is not star wars) means that your game is too close (IMO)... besides, if you draw start wars fans from star wars games you wil get your butt sued off..

Exactly! I thought about that after I posted it. I guess I maybe concepts from Star Wars.

Of course, I don't have delusions of grandeur that I could even make anything close to what a company like Lucas Arts can put out. The game we are working on is only based on what Torque can currently due (FPS) with some modifications (resources) from the GG site. We are definately not trying/believing we could make a SOE killer :)

Basically working on small aspects of the ideas with the capabilities already in Torque.

You've basically told me what I was looking for. A reminder as to what to stay away from due to licensing/intellectual property issues.

#13 Its not so much the legal issues I'd cre about... It's the suitability... You cannot make a game of the depth and scope that LA (Lucas Arts) can ... So why not make something that is twice as fun? Make a small game world that is tonnes of fun to be in. Sure it will be a larger risk, as what you find fun might not be conceived as fun to others (beta / open alpha testing ?) but if you put the effort in your game would be better simply because it is funner, and it would still hold up graphically, as TGE + lighting pack or TSE holds its wait vs. the big boys...

All Im saying is find an amazingly fun bit of gameplay and biuld your game on that... Dont take a concept (Tatooine) and build a game on the concept... Gameplay is why we make games (gameplay doesnt have the word game in it for no reason) so focus on the play part (the fun)

#14

Quote:Well, have you thought about what you could do with a game based entirely around a desert planet ? It could make for a very interesting game (and possibly with very few art assets)

That is definately one of the reasons I'm working on this setting, the art assets. The architecture is very basic and bland as far as buildings go.

The main concepts taken from Star Wars are Smuggling, Bounty Hunting and a law-enforcement type of character. Since its my son and his friends, they are interested in mostly FPS type games. I feel that between the smuggling, bounty hunting and law-enforcement in the game, enough content could be devised to keep them happy for a while. The smuggling issue is the only hard part because it may entail leaving the planet and I'm not sure we are ready for the possibilities that would involve.

As a law-enforcement officer on this planet, you could be called out to kill various critters interfering with life on the planet. One of many ideas. We are trying to make it mission related, somewhat story driven.

It may seem boring to some but that's all some kids want to do today, shoot stuff! :)

Not very ground-breaking I know. However, the Star Wars fans interest in the game would basically be others (kids) who will recognize the influences of Tatooine on this planet. I'm trying to keep their interest in learning how to make a game but balance the reality of what we are able to do (and what Torque can do out-of-the-box) with our current abilities. My son constantly comes up with ideas that I think are very creative, however, I have to tell him that I'm not going to be able to implement that currently due to my lack of skill.

#15 How about making it a very stormy planet so ther is constantly sand storms bowing sand everywhere (making it somewhat difficult to see)... That would create a nice atmosphere...

Then you can do something along hte lines of Each mission being from a different perspecitve... In one you can play the officer getting called to help fight off an invading race of creatures attacking a city... in another you play one of the invaders trying to take the city, in another you play a smuggler trying to get out without being killed by invaders or captured by police... in another you could play a city folk trying to alert the authorities while invaders stalk you thourgh the streets...

There are tonnes of possibilities for a game that dont involve you leaving the planet. . .

You could give it a twist after those missions, playing hte role of a super droid mech type person who is jetting in from outerspace (think Tribes 2 jetpack) to take over the planet, so you are trying to kill the invaders, smuggler, police and city so you can start taking over the planet... Seeing as the world is deserted that could be the only city, allowing for you to keep the assets minimized (only 1 city) but allow the player to experience the world in many ways (leaving an enriched gaming experience with several twists)

of course you will have to mix things up in the city from each persons perspective, but it would lead to a very queer game that could be very successful

Please forgive my spelling

#16 I'm trying to come up with ideas that keep you on the planet because I realize that once we leave the planet the amount of work that needs to be done to develop that portion of the game, art assets, space travel etc.. is going to be beyond my current skills codewise.

The bounty hunter idea may be scrapped and just make it so the law-enforcement are the doing the bounty hunter job and the smugglers are trying to hide from the law-enforcement. We are also trying to get some atmospheric flight involved, using the BraveTree Sparrow Pack as the basis, however, there are some technical problems with that idea so far.

The law-enforcement idea fits great for this game because its bascially tied to the planet. At the most, the law-enforcement officers would need to go out into space but for the most part would be planetary only.

What exactly is "fun gameplay"? I read that term a lot on the GG forums but what can be called fun gameplay? Not everyone has the same idea of what makes a game fun, right? So if the game we are creating is fun for me, my son and his friends we have succeeded if that is our target audience?

Of course my son may have some delusions of grandeur of selling this game if/when its complete. I try not to discourage that kind of thinking, trying to be the glass half-full father. But I'm also rooted in reality!

#17 Well, fun is not really definable (IMO) ... if your son and friends play it and get addicted (ie. would rather play that then counterstrike, or whatever young people are playing now for FPS) then it is good... Also, testers will tell you if it sucks.

#18

Quote:But to say "I want to make tatooine but with darker sand and called something else." is not the same thing. It's not an influence, its a manipulated copy.

True, I'll agree with that... though I disagree with

Quote:but making a game in hopes of drawing Star wars fans (when your game is not star wars) means that your game is too close (IMO)...

(btw I respect that you added the IMO :)

I think that if you can make a game with enough of the same aspects as Star Wars that can pull fans from there into your game then major thumbs up.


Though I agree with Chris in making sure your game is not another version of Star Wars.

Most of the ideas in Star Wars that you mention are definately not unique to Star Wars, they just took those ideas and executed them in their unique way. As long as you take some of those ideas and execute it in your own unique way then I say go for it.

Quote:Smuggling, Bounty Hunting and a law-enforcement type of character

These are definately used among a wide variety of concepts and stories, much earlier than star wars. The feel and motivation behind these are basic roles people have taken for the span of our history. If executed well they can be immensley fun to play :)

I say take these ideas, take Chris' suggestions and add some uniqueness to them.

Though I don' t see a problem with appealing to the same crowd that likes Star Wars. Just like other MMO's appealing to EQ's fanbase. If no one did then everyone would still be playing EQ =/

Quote:The bounty hunter idea may be scrapped and just make it so the law-enforcement are the doing the bounty hunter job and the smugglers are trying to hide from the law-enforcement.

I think the bounty hunter idea is great! I really like the idea behind the way Star Wars Galaxies executes it. Player can take a trade mission, quest, task, etc... if they fail they then are applicable to be hunted by other player bounty hunters.

I think you could definately make a place for both law-nforcement and bounty hunters. Law-enforcement could be the more honorable and law upholding type of people, while Bounty Hunters are the "do whatever I need to do to get the job done" type characters.

Quote:What exactly is "fun gameplay"? I read that term a lot on the GG forums but what can be called fun gameplay? Not everyone has the same idea of what makes a game fun, right? So if the game we are creating is fun for me, my son and his friends we have succeeded if that is our target audience?

I like the way you put this...

"So if the game we are creating is fun for me, my son and his friends we have succeeded if that is our target audience?"

Though I think its important to keep testing people not involved in the development process, that can sometimes cloud your vision. It can also help you ensure keeping your game smooth.

I watched some early testing videos for the first Halo. (if you played it you'll know what I mean) In the beginning you are started with a tutorial style mission... you run up to a door thats ajar, it explodes, you back up and then look left to jump over the pipe. Well when people first tested it ( they recorded it ). A huge ammount of the people couldn't figure out where to go, they either wouldn't run close enough to the door for it to explode or they would and not figure out what to do afterwords... so they then added the arrows and the message (telling you to jump).

Its easy to overlook things like this in your own game since you developed it (or one of your team members).

I think your general idea is sound, of ensuring its fun for you and fellow developers, I would suggest once you get a solid idea and get through solid steps of development you seek some outside opinions, get as much input as possible, it can only help :)


btw love the idea of a desert planet with bounty hunters, smuggling, etc...

#19 Chris, Matthew, thanks for the encouragement and input. It's good to know I'm heading in the right direction with this.

Chris, I loved your ideas:

Quote:How about making it a very stormy planet so ther is constantly sand storms bowing sand everywhere (making it somewhat difficult to see)... That would create a nice atmosphere...

Then you can do something along hte lines of Each mission being from a different perspecitve... In one you can play the officer getting called to help fight off an invading race of creatures attacking a city... in another you play one of the invaders trying to take the city, in another you play a smuggler trying to get out without being killed by invaders or captured by police... in another you could play a city folk trying to alert the authorities while invaders stalk you thourgh the streets...

I definately only want to have like maybe 1 medium-sized city and then have smaller settler camps, homesteads around. Like Tatooine from Star Wars, I want the place to be a haven for people who just happen to be passing by or they are hiding from the TGF (The Galactic Federation). It does provide a lot of stories/content that can be created. You just need the time/creativity and ability.

Luckily the young people generally excell at creativity and artistic ability. That leaves me for the technical (scripting) and reality aspects (saying we can't have every feature they can dream up, at this time).

Star Wars Galaxies, of which I've played and my son and his friends have played, is obviously the catalyst for this type of game. I believe many of the features they have dreamed up are great, but seem to be improperly implemented (in our opinions). Our game will be on a much smaller scale of course.

We also would like to have non-combat abilities in this game such as maybe some type of crafter (Chef, Weapons, etc). I believe there needs to be something other than just shooting things constantly. I personally get bored after shooting things non-stop. If we can implement the crafting side to be a necessary and fun part of the game than we will have implemented it correctly. I believe that Doctors for instance should be a profession that you need to come to after you've been in combat for a while. Make it necessary to visit the Doctor but yet allow for an NPC doctor if there isn't a player doctor online. We do this in real life so why not the game?

I like your idea Chris about playing the game from different perspectives. That is something I different think of.

We have big plans. I'm trying to stay within the "What's available now" framework of Torque. I definately don't want to get into just one more feature-creep.

#20 Well, good luck with it. Its always great to hear about someone working on a game with there kids.