Tired of seeing people pushing Firefox
by Todd D. Degani · in Site Feedback · 05/10/2005 (9:17 am) · 26 replies
Not trying to start a holy war or anything but I keep reading post after post of "have you tried Firefox" blah blah blah. The majority of the people have heard of Firefox have either a) tried it and dont like it and are using IE or b) are using it. It seems like every thread I have seen has at least one "use Firefox" mention in it.
Personally I have tried it and never like how it worked. The only thing I did like was the tabbed windows. I haven't had any problem using IE. Just tired of seeing a dead horse flogged even more.
Personally I have tried it and never like how it worked. The only thing I did like was the tabbed windows. I haven't had any problem using IE. Just tired of seeing a dead horse flogged even more.
#2
05/10/2005 (4:24 pm)
Indeed it's amazing you never had any problems with IE, aside from it being insescure there's lots of sites that either have workarounds for IE's lack of proper CSS support or just look bad, maybe you dont notice them, or when you see them you think "wow the guy that did this site sucks" when in the end it's IE's lack of good CSS support. As a Microsoft representative mentioned, they don't care to improve CSS support for their next version (IE 7) so IE will keep sucking when rendering CSS and the developers don't give a damn, talk about a well supported product. Firefox on the other end just works, it lets you expand it's functionality easily and has a lot of features that make it a great browser to work with (many of these features were copied by IE and will be there in the next version, namely tab support among others). It's incredible reading on the IE propaganda stuff like, a new way to browse the internet, open several pages on the same browser using tabs. A NEW way?? Wtf, opera has had that since it was created and mozilla has had it since it was forked from Netscape. Greedy people... 
#4
05/10/2005 (6:20 pm)
I use Firefox as my primary browser and I've had the same problems that you mention with updates and plug-ins. It's still the browser I use most. I use IE on my Tablet PC to get Windows Updates, but that's about it. But I haven't really noticed a "Firefox-centric" contingent here. Perhaps it's something with the new site's look and feel and CSS structure. I'm not sure as my unread posts came back to haunt me again and I missed out on most of the day as I didn't want to read through every post on the forums to figure out which ones I had missed. I was hoping that "feature" was gone from the previous site.
#5
If you read my posts at all you would have seen that I have tried and that I have never seen a difference. That's why.
05/10/2005 (6:20 pm)
@GeorgeIf you read my posts at all you would have seen that I have tried and that I have never seen a difference. That's why.
#6
05/10/2005 (6:23 pm)
Crap accidentally delete my post when I went to edit it. If anyone wants to repost the one I made to Xavier if they had it emailed to em, it would be appreciated.
#7
I had some prroblems with layer rendering with .png files in IE with a site I was working on. Mainly in ordering. I ended up checking the browser and loading the correct style. It was small placement things and ordering mainly. But then, I don't deal with them every day. I do know that all browsers are loads better than they were a few years ago.
05/10/2005 (6:34 pm)
Paraphrased: show me the money.I had some prroblems with layer rendering with .png files in IE with a site I was working on. Mainly in ordering. I ended up checking the browser and loading the correct style. It was small placement things and ordering mainly. But then, I don't deal with them every day. I do know that all browsers are loads better than they were a few years ago.
#8
For my perspective, I have a fair amount of experience designing web pages. IE simply has too many bugs and isn't standards compliant.
Whenever you make a page, you write it to be be correct - then you turn around and have to fix the cases where its broken for IE5.0, IE 5.5 and IE 6.0, because they all have different bugs. You have to be careful not to break the correct rendering in the other main browsers (opera, firefox/mozilla, safari) as well, so its often a difficult problem bending over to accomodate Internet Explorer (which you have to, because its the dominant browser by market share thinks to being bundled with Windows).
Not only this, but Internet Explorer doesn't have nice features such as tabbed browsing, good search tools etc making other browsers superior from an end users point of view, not just a developers. I won't harp on about that though as its very well documented all over the web.
Heres a good examples page.
This page has tons of examples of incorrect IE rendering.
Heres a list of bugs from a site hosted on Microsoft Developers Network.
Incidentily if you want a ready made image, someone posted one from the new changes in a thread here.
Microsoft has promised they will fix some of the CSS bugs for IE7 which they will release this US summer, but we'll be programming around versions 5-6 for many years to come.
05/10/2005 (7:45 pm)
ToddFor my perspective, I have a fair amount of experience designing web pages. IE simply has too many bugs and isn't standards compliant.
Whenever you make a page, you write it to be be correct - then you turn around and have to fix the cases where its broken for IE5.0, IE 5.5 and IE 6.0, because they all have different bugs. You have to be careful not to break the correct rendering in the other main browsers (opera, firefox/mozilla, safari) as well, so its often a difficult problem bending over to accomodate Internet Explorer (which you have to, because its the dominant browser by market share thinks to being bundled with Windows).
Not only this, but Internet Explorer doesn't have nice features such as tabbed browsing, good search tools etc making other browsers superior from an end users point of view, not just a developers. I won't harp on about that though as its very well documented all over the web.
Heres a good examples page.
This page has tons of examples of incorrect IE rendering.
Heres a list of bugs from a site hosted on Microsoft Developers Network.
Incidentily if you want a ready made image, someone posted one from the new changes in a thread here.
Microsoft has promised they will fix some of the CSS bugs for IE7 which they will release this US summer, but we'll be programming around versions 5-6 for many years to come.
#9
05/11/2005 (5:42 am)
Todd, you do realize by starting such a thread, you're going to incite just about everyone who uses Firefox to give you a piece of their mind ? :)
#10
Probably, but I really don't care what browser people use. I was just mainly trying to point out that it is pretty futile to keep trying to sell people on Firefox on these forums. Most of us, in my opinion, know that exists. If people havent tried it or arent using it by now then they arent going to, so for people to keep bringing it up is mostly a waste of time.
That said, there has probably just been an influx of those types of posts because of the recent changes to the website.
05/11/2005 (7:25 am)
@NicolasProbably, but I really don't care what browser people use. I was just mainly trying to point out that it is pretty futile to keep trying to sell people on Firefox on these forums. Most of us, in my opinion, know that exists. If people havent tried it or arent using it by now then they arent going to, so for people to keep bringing it up is mostly a waste of time.
That said, there has probably just been an influx of those types of posts because of the recent changes to the website.
#11
I like Windows and IE. Personally, I haven't noticed any problems with the CSS rendering - nearly every page I've seen works perfectly fine. Maybe Firefox is better - maybe it's a FACT that it's better. I may still prefer IE just for sentimental reasons or simply because I already know it and like it.
As Todd says, trying to convince informed users is mostly futile. I like to think that those pushing Firefox are trying to convert those that haven't heard of it (and I would guess that there are many Windows users who have not). I would guess that the "try Firefox, it's better" posts won't last too much longer as the GG site gets fixed up (and yes, maybe *just* to workaround some IE bugs).
05/11/2005 (9:40 am)
You might as well start a Mac vs. Linux vs. PC issue. People like what they like and they like telling other people when they find something useful - at least, that's how I like to think about it.I like Windows and IE. Personally, I haven't noticed any problems with the CSS rendering - nearly every page I've seen works perfectly fine. Maybe Firefox is better - maybe it's a FACT that it's better. I may still prefer IE just for sentimental reasons or simply because I already know it and like it.
As Todd says, trying to convince informed users is mostly futile. I like to think that those pushing Firefox are trying to convert those that haven't heard of it (and I would guess that there are many Windows users who have not). I would guess that the "try Firefox, it's better" posts won't last too much longer as the GG site gets fixed up (and yes, maybe *just* to workaround some IE bugs).
#13
However, since it is unlikely that the 90% of the web that is using IE will switch anytime soon, nor that Microsoft will ever properly support any standard that they do not own, sites will continue to be designed to function properly under both CSS implementations.
The end result? It doesn't really matter what browser you use, any professionally designed website should work whether in an MS browser or a CSS-compliant browser.
05/11/2005 (1:05 pm)
IE works in most sites because most web developers have to make allowances for it because it is the most commonly used browser. If everyone used FireFox, Safari, and other CSS-compliant browsers, life would be a lot easier for web designers.However, since it is unlikely that the 90% of the web that is using IE will switch anytime soon, nor that Microsoft will ever properly support any standard that they do not own, sites will continue to be designed to function properly under both CSS implementations.
The end result? It doesn't really matter what browser you use, any professionally designed website should work whether in an MS browser or a CSS-compliant browser.
#14
Only thing firefox has over opera for me, is a better find and no ads. Not worth the hassle of installing all the appropriate extensions just to get it how I liked opera just yet (I hate it how firefox doesn't seem to save your tabs without some tweaking)
05/11/2005 (5:42 pm)
My flatmates computer is about 2 metres away from me, and we often have debates about "preferred" applications. Can get heated at times, but no fisticuffs yet :)Only thing firefox has over opera for me, is a better find and no ads. Not worth the hassle of installing all the appropriate extensions just to get it how I liked opera just yet (I hate it how firefox doesn't seem to save your tabs without some tweaking)
#15
In CSS1, IE can easily be buffer-overflowed via the glow text control. I at one time had a script that would download the sub7 server, and install/configure it in the background upon you visiting the page.
IE is a huge security risk, even if you don't notice it - you have simply been lucky.
On top of that, IE doesn't conform to the standards set forth by W3C. IE renders pages as it wants to, not how it's supposed to be rendered.
05/11/2005 (6:29 pm)
The main reason I like firefox:In CSS1, IE can easily be buffer-overflowed via the glow text control. I at one time had a script that would download the sub7 server, and install/configure it in the background upon you visiting the page.
IE is a huge security risk, even if you don't notice it - you have simply been lucky.
On top of that, IE doesn't conform to the standards set forth by W3C. IE renders pages as it wants to, not how it's supposed to be rendered.
#16
As I said I dont have data or anything of the sort to back this up, its just my gut feeling.
On another note, when were the W3C standards that all the Firefox zealots keep preaching about created? This is an honest question as I have no idea. I am just wondering where the releases of the various standards fall in comparison to when the different versions of IE were published.
EDIT: typos
05/11/2005 (6:40 pm)
Honestly, my gut feeling is that the whole security issue is just holywar rhetoric. If you can tell me right now that Firefox is 100% secure you can sign me up right now and I will never look back. But the truth is, you cant. By the sheer amount of market penetration IE has there are more security holes that are going to be found. If the Firefox and IE market domination were reversed we would be arguing about the lack of security in Firefox.As I said I dont have data or anything of the sort to back this up, its just my gut feeling.
On another note, when were the W3C standards that all the Firefox zealots keep preaching about created? This is an honest question as I have no idea. I am just wondering where the releases of the various standards fall in comparison to when the different versions of IE were published.
EDIT: typos
#17
How about making it a requirement, at these forums, that before you can recommend it, you have to develop a standards-compliant website that works in IE? Maybe then, people will understand that by using it, they're helping contribute to a massive epidemic of wasting developers' time. Most people may feel that their individual choice doesn't make an impact, but already there are a ton of users on Opera and Mozilla, helping to steal the market share away from IE. If these browsers didn't exist, MSFT wouldn't even have to make their browsers as standards-compliant as they currently are (which is still very lacking).
Todd, "market penetration" or not, bad code is bad code. Reference Windows security-through-obscurity's success, verses *nix's open source, and apply the same logic to IE vs Mozilla.
Bottom line: The more users on anything but IE is A Good Thing.
05/11/2005 (7:10 pm)
...goes and starts "Tired of seeing people pushing Internet Explorer" thread...How about making it a requirement, at these forums, that before you can recommend it, you have to develop a standards-compliant website that works in IE? Maybe then, people will understand that by using it, they're helping contribute to a massive epidemic of wasting developers' time. Most people may feel that their individual choice doesn't make an impact, but already there are a ton of users on Opera and Mozilla, helping to steal the market share away from IE. If these browsers didn't exist, MSFT wouldn't even have to make their browsers as standards-compliant as they currently are (which is still very lacking).
Todd, "market penetration" or not, bad code is bad code. Reference Windows security-through-obscurity's success, verses *nix's open source, and apply the same logic to IE vs Mozilla.
Bottom line: The more users on anything but IE is A Good Thing.
#18
While it can lead into holywar rhetoric, IE has had a rather nebulous history with security (though Outlook Express has a few more). But the only software that is 100% secure is software that has never and will never be written. Microsoft has a long return rate on when exploits are submitted to their security staff and the fixes are applied. A huge portion of this is due to metrics testing as they have to be conscious that they can't break their software on every desktop.
But just about anything can lead to rhetoric, and in the right context can be extremely valid as long as it is an informed argument.
05/11/2005 (7:22 pm)
The W3C has been releasing standards for years and IE has been ignoring them for years as well. Netscape used to ignore them too, attempting to develop their own implementation (blink tags, ugh...worse even than marquees). Go to W3C for more information. It would be interesting if they would actually move towards standards compliance, but it's somewhat like standards compliance among compilers...a long shot. Especially when commercial concerns are at stake.While it can lead into holywar rhetoric, IE has had a rather nebulous history with security (though Outlook Express has a few more). But the only software that is 100% secure is software that has never and will never be written. Microsoft has a long return rate on when exploits are submitted to their security staff and the fixes are applied. A huge portion of this is due to metrics testing as they have to be conscious that they can't break their software on every desktop.
But just about anything can lead to rhetoric, and in the right context can be extremely valid as long as it is an informed argument.
#19
I have Firefox installed on Gentoo Linux but keep a windows box at my side with IE 5.01, 5.5 and 6.0 installed (and an ancient version of Opera) and we have numerous OSX boxes with Safari that I test against.
--Rick
05/11/2005 (7:31 pm)
Internally GarageGames has standardized on Firefox and Thunderbird ...that was about the same time I saw our last virus. I have Firefox installed on Gentoo Linux but keep a windows box at my side with IE 5.01, 5.5 and 6.0 installed (and an ancient version of Opera) and we have numerous OSX boxes with Safari that I test against.
--Rick
#20
True they are gaining market share but their growth rate is slipping as referenced in this article. Basically most of the people who are goingto get Firefox have gotten it at this point.
@David
Thanks for the link to the W3C information, Ill have to take a look at it when I get some time.
This thread is pretty much off course of where I pretty much intended it to go. There are plenty of threads to debate the pros and cons of IE vs Firefox. I posted mainly because there are those whose answer to pretty much everything web related is "get firefox" and posting those types of answers on these boards are pretty futile because there is probably a slim majority here that have not chosen a browser. Telling people to "get firefox" on these boards is basically preaching to those who either have decided to not get it or those who already have it.
05/11/2005 (7:32 pm)
@JamesQuote:Most people may feel that their individual choice doesn't make an impact, but already there are a ton of users on Opera and Mozilla, helping to steal the market share away from IE.
True they are gaining market share but their growth rate is slipping as referenced in this article. Basically most of the people who are goingto get Firefox have gotten it at this point.
@David
Thanks for the link to the W3C information, Ill have to take a look at it when I get some time.
This thread is pretty much off course of where I pretty much intended it to go. There are plenty of threads to debate the pros and cons of IE vs Firefox. I posted mainly because there are those whose answer to pretty much everything web related is "get firefox" and posting those types of answers on these boards are pretty futile because there is probably a slim majority here that have not chosen a browser. Telling people to "get firefox" on these boards is basically preaching to those who either have decided to not get it or those who already have it.
Torque Owner Vernon Finch
I personally have all 3, and use opera the most. My main barrier to doing the full conversion to firefox, is opera has all I need, and firefox I have to install plugins to achieve basically the same thing, so why change?