Your choise for a modeling package

#1 It wasn't that we won't compromise on other software... in fact we are using Blender right now which is a great, especially considering its free.

We just prefer 3DS Max so if we are going to spend money on a package we want that one

#2 For a while I was using Wings3d for modelling and Blender for exporting and animation. It's a great combo if you don't have access to big bags of cash, because they're both free.

Wings3d is probably the easiest piece of software to learn in the world. Every operation is accessible through the right click menus, and you can bind shortcut keys to commonly used functions. The UVmapper is really cool, and it has recently become much more feature-rich. The only problems are that it lacks an exporter and it can't do animations.

Blender has an excellent interface if you're a fan of large banks of buttons with descriptive labels like "ShowLi." I'm exaggerating, of course, but it's not a tool that you can learn in an afternoon. You will have to read a lot of tutorials and documentation before you really understand what's going on.

These two support some common export/import formats, so they end up working really nicely together.

To get back on topic, it makes sense to go with what you know. If you have the cash and you know Max, it makes sense to get Max. If you choose to use another modeller it could set your project back a ridiculously long time. For those of us who have more time than money, it makes sense to go for cheaper options.

#3 Max offers the most comprehensive toolset as far as games go. Especially with release 7, Discreet really tried to give developers what they wanted. Granted, this package costs a substantial amount of money, but really and truly its worth every penny.

#4 Ive spent years with 3dsmax, c4d and maya, including dropping the cash for 3dsmax(5.1) and c4d. I personally would love to move away from 3dsmax as far as possible. It is amazing that the biggies (3dsmax, maya, etc) are still charging the rates they do when there are tools that are passing them up on many fronts. All the applications have stability issues (except c4d PC, its like a rock)...3dsmax crashes on my much more than blender: Ive easily lost cumulative weeks worth of work due to 3dsmax.

My favorite modeling and texturing tool: ZBrush. Ive had this app since v1.23 and it is CRAZY awesome. It is strictly a modeling and texturing tool (as far as game dev is concerned) and does not support animations, but it plays very well with blender/wings3d/etc via .obj files. The price is still right (although it has doubled since i first purchased it). If you think Blenders interface is wonky, ZBrush's took me months to get ahold of, but is by far the most powerful interface I have used in ANY application, hands down. You can record everything you do and replay it later (something like photoshop's actions, but much more powerful) or pass it on to others. On the zbrush forums many artists also post thier work, so you can load it up in ZBrush and watch em work away, stopping it at any time to review the model. It also allows me to easily handle 2 million poly models...try loading that into 3dsmax and rotate/move/paint in realtime. There are also many features for moving your content to other apps such as displacement and normal map generation from the high res onto the low res models: I found it works very well with TSE. ZBrush is truly an application of the future, FAR ahead of the competition in many ways.

I use Blender frequently, since 2.34 the modeling has improved drastically. The application is much more stable and easy to use than even six or seven months ago. Blender was originally created to get content into a 3d engine and the source is open in case any issues need to be addressed. The interface takes a bit to chew on, but if you are familiar with other 3d apps the concepts are the same. Just print out the shortcuts and keep em close for the first few weeks and eventually working in it is smooth as silk.

Many of the new tools on the market are relatively comparable for many things and better at others. A team could put together a very solid pipeline for under $1000...with a bit of exporter work: the dtssdk is very easy to work with.

I definitely recommend trying out a few tools and doing some direct comparison on the workflow moving things into the engine. 3dsmax does have a lot of 'convenience' tools directed at game dev, so these may make up for the price point if you use them enough, but in my experience many of these types of features are only used once in a while and could be done with a bit more effort in many other tools.

#5 Some of the new tools in version 7.5 (that I saw at GDC) are pretty worthwhile... a new skin tool that will apply a rig to a mesh based on tolerances... easy sharing of rigs between lots of models, with very little tweaking (if done right only a couple minutes of work to share a rig between models).... there are some other very good tools in 7 and 7.5, admitidly most of them lean towards animation capabilities... convenience tools I'll concede, but if it can save you on the upwords of tens to hundreds of hours, then the convenience might be worth that pricetag... at least to me it is :)

I think I still might check out ZBrush and I am a big supporter of Blender... Just the ammount of tools 3DS Max now has for game development (mainly animation) really saves on a whole lot of production time... that time is easily worth a couple thousand

(plus the art pipeline from it to Torque is pretty good... I've also used the Game Level Builder plugin for Max to make .maps that export into interiors)

#6 Well before this thread turns into the gong show of "My favorite 3D app is better than your favorite 3D app" debate, I will try to answer some of the original question of this thread in a generic response so that things stay on track.

Why does a team choose applicaion X instead of applicaiont Y even though its more expensive or in theory has close to or nearly as many features as a more expensive version?

There are a variety of reasons for doing this such as:

A) Familiarity. If its what the team has used in the past and they are comfortable with it, then its going to be the application of choice for the team to stick with. It takes a very long time to get comfortable in a new application, so familiarily is a huge benefit when you need to hit the ground at a full paced run.

B) Ability to find new employees. Should a team need to grow and expand you are going to want to expand with people who are already profiecient with your current tools and workflow. Training someone can take a good 3 months off of your schedule and another 3 months before that person becomes proficient enough to really start doing their job reliably. Most teams do not want this down time, nor can they afford it, which is why you see teams stick to tried, tested and true applications that are widely used and supported since that also means that there is a proficient and professional user base around to hire too.

C) Consistency and ability to share assets. Yes it is true that teams can in theory use multiple 3D applications to get the job done and there are 3rd party file formats for transfering these files, but unfortunately in the real world doing this is a bitch and causes a lot of problems. You need your artists to share and work from the same files, thus keeping a clean work environment where everyone can work efficiently and benefit.

D) Knowledge base; Support; Community. Basicly to sum this up, you want to use what it supported the best and here with the Torque Engine for example its the more mainstream stuff that has official support because its what the industry for the most part uses. Yes you can use an unsupported application, but your workflow is also interrupted and as those who have experianced this will say, its an annoyance.

E) Price is irrelivent. Now this statement may have irked a few of you here but hear me out before you blow hot air out of every oriface on your body. Software is set at a particular price point based on the developers need to pay its employees and futher its R&D (and make a profit too which is fair). If software does not sell well at that price point then it will need to increase or decrease its price accordingly. Now in the world of 3D applications there have always been expensive and inexpensive applications, but irregardless of the price the cheaper application has never been the best, in fact it has always been far from it. As a generalization, the cheaper applications are simply alternatives that are trying to play catchup while the more expensive solutions are the leaders and are able to be the leaders because of their ability to fund large R&D and innovate what their user base needs and wants. R&D translates into new features that allow you to work more effectively and be more versatile so its a real win-win solution. Now let me make this clear, I am not saying that a cheaper, or any other, 3D application is sucky or that you are less of an artist for using it, just that it might take you longer to do something and since Time is Money, spending more time is not something that everyone can afford to do for the benefit of their project. Saving a few hundred dollars now most certainly will not equate to saving a few hundred dollars at the end of the production.


So there you have it. You have huge pros and cons to weigh when considering your 3D application of choice for your project, but ultimately the decision that you need to make is what will benefit your team and your project the most based on your current situation. After that do your research and move onto your work.

Logan

#7 I too prefer max. It seems ot be the prefered tool for many developers using it for interiors and environment modelers. Or as an alternative to a level editor. I don't think it has much of an advantage if any over the other packages if your just looking to create characters, vehicles and static placement objects.

However 3dsmax was developed as much for the engineer and Architect in mind, as realtime 3D for TV, video and movies, and has a pretty strong focus on game development. I think it's this flexibility thats made it a particularly strong tool for level design, (if combined with the right exporter).

Max may be expensive. But over the years you have had more and more in the way of previously very expensive plugins, that have recently been integrated.

Reactor (Havok Physics) used to cost about $1000
Mental Ray 3.3? used to cost over $1000
Character studio $1000

not to mention constant refinement that makes it almost indistinguishable compered to a very lacklustre v3.0 and 4.

For a serious game developer with the right engine, and budget, it's really quite hard to beat. Whether it's the best tool to use with torque is at this point arguable, but that may well change.

If XSI had an exporter, the new basic version would probably be the best all round value for money version for torque as it stands today.

In my experience, Maya has primarily been a favourite for animators, prior to v4.5 it had very limited poly modeling tools, and very limited snaps but fantastic industry beating nurbs modeling tools.

I used both at my last job, but my personal favourite is still 3dsmax.

I'd like to try XSI, but havent had much time. And I used Lightwave, but I think things moved on since the 5.x - 6.5 era :)

One thing I didn't like about Lightwave was having a seperate modeler and layout, and a lot of tools being spread between both tools. This has been consolifdated somewhat but I still find it odd after working with Maya and 3dsmax.

#8 I personally prefer Maya and Max for all of my 3D work, primarily because of the enormous wealth of resources available for them. There are huge online user communities centered around these two programs, and, as far as game dev goes, they are the standards. Also, the workflows for both programs suit my personal work style much better than any of the others. Although I have been using Max for longer, Maya is my favorite for its streamlined workflow, extensive scripting capabilities, fast and easy-to-use animation tools, and cross-platform support.

#9 Logan is right on the money when it comes to the most important feature of your modelling package: you or your employee's familiarity and comfort using it. Most of the high-end and low-end packages have the capability to do anything you want if you are familiar with them. The only exception I know of being milkshape, which is not currently capable of supporting all features of DTS.

Aside from that I would recommend looking at packages that have full-featured and well-supported exporters for Torque. Also, if your eventual goal is (for some crazy reason) to get hired by a big studio, you should definitely stick with Max or Maya, as they are going to be the most widely used tools in the industry at large.

#10 @L Foster
I agree with some of the things you said but not with all.
"Training someone can take a good 3 months off of your schedule and another 3 months before that person becomes proficient enough to really start doing their job reliably"
I disagree, since we are talking about professional software I asume we are talking on
professional artist that used some softwares but Milkshape3D.
I belive that a professional artist can learn a software in about a month he will not learn
everything but half of the software we don't need for games, stuff like nurbs, metaballs, shaders
aren't nessery for the game, he just need to know poly modeling, animation and UVmapping.
The hard part with modeling (in my opinion) is to learn what to do with the tool and not how
to do it. The same goes for animation once you understant how to do animations
with one software it's won't take long before the artist will learn how to do it with another.

"Price is irrelivent."
I read this and I still disagree, sure that it's good to spend a few hundred dollars now and save
a few hundred dollars down the road but we are indie's we don't have that kind of money and
which lead to using warez version, Im sure the 80% of the people that use max have
illegal copy (Im not considering professional companies and studios) as I said max price tab is $3145.50
in the same amount you can purchase a lot more things than just a modeling package,
you can also buy an extension for the game engine which will also save time, ect.

#11 Here is just one example of why we are saving towards Max... In 7.5 it introduced a new skin tool to apply a rig based on thresholds... so say you have 80 creatures in your game that have roughly a similar structure, maybe just scaled up or down... with this tool you can take a single rig (possibly a couple) and apply it to all of them for animations in a matter of minutes each... if done properly even a minute or two per one... most of the time being loading and saving...

This can save a lot of time. This also opens up larger games to indies, considering normally you'd have someone spending many hours doing this. Max 7 and 7.5 have many tools like this that speed up development and are very intuitive (including a new gui interface that allows you to script muscle bulging etc etc)...

Quote:he just need to know poly modeling, animation and UVmapping.

Thats one way to do it, but if you learn these tools a single artist can do the job of many that just do it that way ;)

We don't have it now... in fact we use Blender now, which works... we may even go for milkshape or something... though our goal is Max... not only for game models and animations as well, it allows us to develop some very high quality commercial level animations. This may allow us to do contract work for larger game companies, commercial ads, etc etc

Plus from what I've seen the Max to Torque art path is very stable, if not the most stable

#12

Quote:In 7.5 it introduced a new skin tool to apply a rig based on thresholds... so say you have 80 creatures in your game that have roughly a similar structure, maybe just scaled up or down... with this tool you can take a single rig (possibly a couple) and apply it to all of them for animations in a matter of minutes each... if done properly even a minute or two per one... most of the time being loading and saving...

Sound like the same feature gameSpace and trueSpace (with GamePak for export) has.
check this tutorials
especially part two. plus gameSpace has trueBones
which is an anamation collection, all you need to do is to apply the bones for the mush (single click)
and you got animation, plus gameSpace has dts and dif exporters.
I don't like trueSpace/gameSpace modeling tools that's why I would model with a diffrent
software and animate & export with gameSpace.

Quote:though our goal is Max

My goal is also max but it will be in a few years when I will have solid background and I will know
for a fact that I will use it often. plus Im sure that untill I have max I will have about 5 other
modeling softwares. The same goes for Photoshop.

#13 Photoshop we will get sooner than later... I do commercial web design and have used Paint Shop Pro and gottens some flash tools and plan to get at least one license of Photoshop. I've used Paint Shop pro for a few years, its a good program, but its not Photoshop... Photoshop will be goal one while we produce T2D games... then hopefully we can swing Max in 6 months - 1 year

Plus Character Studio has to be either the most robust set of Character Animation/rigging/etc tools out there (included there Biped), if not then definately one of the best :)

At least your not arguing the viability of Max... and your goals may be different than ours. We just see it as a productivity booster that is well worth the extra 1-2k.


btw the Rigging in the link you gave is not what I am referencing, that is just standard rigging like most 3D apps have, even Blender (which I do like blender :)...

What I am referring to is a brand new tool in 7.5... it was two weeks from being released to subscription customers during GDC... it will take a rig and automagically apply it to a 3d Mesh based on thresholds, so in a matter of even seconds you can share like shaped rigs... The demo was on two fairly similar models, though with some distinct differents (very much different characters) and a matter of a couple clicks an entire rig was transfered over.