Plea for help!!!
by Alex Parker · in Torque Game Builder · 04/23/2005 (6:00 am) · 27 replies
This may not be the place for it, but I'm sure someone will boot me in the right direction if it isn't,
Okay so I'm a semi-decent programmer, I'm okay at music, but my animation and drawing skills are far inferior to some of the stuff I've seen around here. I know that many people (myself included) really wish to create a game that is an individual artwork, it shows off their many talents, but in my case such a game would run fine and sound good, but look lame. So, I beg, no I plead, I bow and scrape to someone who can draw good game art in the name of producing a superior set of games, to please help me! Hmm, maybe that sounded too much like begging. Hmm, anyway, its well known that no man (or woman in these PC days) is an island (or landmass in these PC days), and I honestly believe that by teaming up, we can share ideas and help each other along with our projects.
Honestly, the games I want to make, I lose interest in developing when I realise the artwork isn't what I'd like it to be, although the gameplay and technical side is just fine. After my initial foray (remember HotWired?) I want to move on to my next project, but the prospect of using programmer-placement art causes me to cringe. Also, so that its not just about me, I'd be happy to program your game too, kind of like an exchange, or team effort.
Anyway, if you're interested in combining efforts in a mutually beneficial alliance of skills, let me know and we can talk details.
Cheers!
Okay so I'm a semi-decent programmer, I'm okay at music, but my animation and drawing skills are far inferior to some of the stuff I've seen around here. I know that many people (myself included) really wish to create a game that is an individual artwork, it shows off their many talents, but in my case such a game would run fine and sound good, but look lame. So, I beg, no I plead, I bow and scrape to someone who can draw good game art in the name of producing a superior set of games, to please help me! Hmm, maybe that sounded too much like begging. Hmm, anyway, its well known that no man (or woman in these PC days) is an island (or landmass in these PC days), and I honestly believe that by teaming up, we can share ideas and help each other along with our projects.
Honestly, the games I want to make, I lose interest in developing when I realise the artwork isn't what I'd like it to be, although the gameplay and technical side is just fine. After my initial foray (remember HotWired?) I want to move on to my next project, but the prospect of using programmer-placement art causes me to cringe. Also, so that its not just about me, I'd be happy to program your game too, kind of like an exchange, or team effort.
Anyway, if you're interested in combining efforts in a mutually beneficial alliance of skills, let me know and we can talk details.
Cheers!
#2
Online coloring pages. Yeah, that's what I said. Anyway it serves my purpose. I have decent place holders and I've fond it easier to work with preexisting art at the pixel level.
Anyway, here is a screen shot.
Now, you can see that the lines are darker in some places, and tha the fence really needs to be changed. But all and all it is just a collection of different coloring pages cropped and changed at the pixel level.
I guess my point is that there are ways to get around the art issue.
04/23/2005 (7:07 am)
I know this is going to sound lame but I can't draw either. At all. So I compromised by using preexisting art. Not any normal art either. Online coloring pages. Yeah, that's what I said. Anyway it serves my purpose. I have decent place holders and I've fond it easier to work with preexisting art at the pixel level.
Anyway, here is a screen shot.
Now, you can see that the lines are darker in some places, and tha the fence really needs to be changed. But all and all it is just a collection of different coloring pages cropped and changed at the pixel level.
I guess my point is that there are ways to get around the art issue.
#3
04/23/2005 (5:50 pm)
I AM AN ISLAND 
#5
04/23/2005 (8:17 pm)
What does that mean? "I am an Island"?
#6
04/23/2005 (8:37 pm)
I assume he's referring to the saying "No man is an island" that was referenced to in the first post about how everyone needs everyone else... but I want be able to make my game by myself :P 
#7
04/23/2005 (9:01 pm)
Charlie, that art is cool looking. :)
#8
@charlie, I'm glad that you have found something which works for you, and by the looks of things you have quite a unique look and feel about the game.
Anyways, my original offer still stands. Personally I'm not happy to just work around the issue, I want my games to look good and original, originality being the key since its hard to be original if you use stuff thats plastered all over the internet. Hopefully with the right combination of programmers and artists, the T2D community will be able to produce awesome games that players will want to buy, that is my misty-eyed dream.
04/23/2005 (11:56 pm)
@matt: Thanks for the reminder as that is where I found my original placeholder art, but sourcing game objects from all over the place (because it can be hard to find what you're after), the game sorta looks all jumbled. While that sort of stuff works okay for proof-of-concept testing to see if the game works as a game, to get things polished up and ready for release requires a certain level of artistic skill above which placeholder graphics and myself are able to provide.@charlie, I'm glad that you have found something which works for you, and by the looks of things you have quite a unique look and feel about the game.
Anyways, my original offer still stands. Personally I'm not happy to just work around the issue, I want my games to look good and original, originality being the key since its hard to be original if you use stuff thats plastered all over the internet. Hopefully with the right combination of programmers and artists, the T2D community will be able to produce awesome games that players will want to buy, that is my misty-eyed dream.
#9
The problem being that there are too many people out there with Ideas. If you show you have a solid plan, you might be able to get some artists to help out.
For artists, it would be easier because all they have to do is show that they can draw.
04/24/2005 (12:14 am)
What I was getting at when I posted that picture and designed my game was to have place holder art. I figure If i can show the community a good, sound game, I would have more of a chance to get some artistic people behind me.The problem being that there are too many people out there with Ideas. If you show you have a solid plan, you might be able to get some artists to help out.
For artists, it would be easier because all they have to do is show that they can draw.
#10
@charlie, I'm glad that you have found something which works for you, and by the looks of things you have quite a unique look and feel about the game.
Anyways, my original offer still stands. Personally I'm not happy to just work around the issue, I want my games to look good and original, originality being the key since its hard to be original if you use stuff thats plastered all over the internet. Hopefully with the right combination of programmers and artists, the T2D community will be able to produce awesome games that players will want to buy, that is my misty-eyed dream.
04/24/2005 (12:15 am)
@matt: Thanks for the reminder as that is where I found my original placeholder art, but sourcing game objects from all over the place (because it can be hard to find what you're after), the game sorta looks all jumbled. While that sort of stuff works okay for proof-of-concept testing to see if the game works as a game, to get things polished up and ready for release requires a certain level of artistic skill above which placeholder graphics and myself are able to provide.@charlie, I'm glad that you have found something which works for you, and by the looks of things you have quite a unique look and feel about the game.
Anyways, my original offer still stands. Personally I'm not happy to just work around the issue, I want my games to look good and original, originality being the key since its hard to be original if you use stuff thats plastered all over the internet. Hopefully with the right combination of programmers and artists, the T2D community will be able to produce awesome games that players will want to buy, that is my misty-eyed dream.
#11
@Charlie:
If you're talking about game design on top of coding (two separate skills), then the same goes for artists. We have to show we can design a solid game on top of our art ability to get programmers to join and give the game design aspect to the artist, just as you want artists to join and use your game idea. Except, I'd say it's harder for artists, because it's harder to show our game design ability if we can't code a prototype in action.
You can grab placeholder art. Artists can't so easily grab placeholder code (yet still gets the original gameplay design across, or even necessarily know how to put the code in). T2D was attractive to me because it's as close as I can get to that. But I'm still having a hell of a time learning just the scripting, let alone the C++ required for some features my design includes.
But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying entirely :). I just know that in my experience, the views artists and programmers have about game design and how the other side thinks, differ greatly. It's just no picnic for anyone, I think. A fun and passionate "no picnic", but still no picnic :).
04/24/2005 (12:56 am)
A BIT OFF TOPIC, but...@Charlie:
Quote:The problem being that there are too many people out there with Ideas. If you show you have a solid plan, you might be able to get some artists to help out.No way. It's not easier at all. All we have to show is that we can draw, all you have to show is that you can code. The ground is even there. And if you have to show you can code specifically for games, we have to show we can specifically make art assets for games (ie, we know about animation, linking animation for different actions, understand how special effects work, etc...).
For artists, it would be easier because all they have to do is show that they can draw
If you're talking about game design on top of coding (two separate skills), then the same goes for artists. We have to show we can design a solid game on top of our art ability to get programmers to join and give the game design aspect to the artist, just as you want artists to join and use your game idea. Except, I'd say it's harder for artists, because it's harder to show our game design ability if we can't code a prototype in action.
You can grab placeholder art. Artists can't so easily grab placeholder code (yet still gets the original gameplay design across, or even necessarily know how to put the code in). T2D was attractive to me because it's as close as I can get to that. But I'm still having a hell of a time learning just the scripting, let alone the C++ required for some features my design includes.
But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying entirely :). I just know that in my experience, the views artists and programmers have about game design and how the other side thinks, differ greatly. It's just no picnic for anyone, I think. A fun and passionate "no picnic", but still no picnic :).
#12
Game Ideas are worthless, everyone has them, its what you can produce from them that makes you valuable.
For Game Designers this is a Game Design Document and other design documentation and decisions when everyone else looks to you.
For Programmers its taking all the bits and peices of coding/scripting and making something workable out of it... when a problem hits you can work around it or develop around it.
For Artists its not only having skill or being able to draw, its doing the artistic style of the game well, of developing things accurately and at a polished level that many cannot.
All in all it comes down to doing what you do professional...
thats where IP goes out the door, to a point you should protect your IP, but you shouldn't depend on it... rather than depend on one great game design, game code, or game art, get good at developing that quality of stuff constantly.
Sorry, just had to chime in on some great advice (a bit paraphrased and detailed moreso for this situation)...
bah, who says Game Design schools teach you nothing ;)
04/24/2005 (1:03 am)
An Instructor of mine, Dennis Kilgore (was a game designer for Dynamix - though he didn't work on Tribes) put it better than I've heard it... (paraphrased)Game Ideas are worthless, everyone has them, its what you can produce from them that makes you valuable.
For Game Designers this is a Game Design Document and other design documentation and decisions when everyone else looks to you.
For Programmers its taking all the bits and peices of coding/scripting and making something workable out of it... when a problem hits you can work around it or develop around it.
For Artists its not only having skill or being able to draw, its doing the artistic style of the game well, of developing things accurately and at a polished level that many cannot.
All in all it comes down to doing what you do professional...
thats where IP goes out the door, to a point you should protect your IP, but you shouldn't depend on it... rather than depend on one great game design, game code, or game art, get good at developing that quality of stuff constantly.
Sorry, just had to chime in on some great advice (a bit paraphrased and detailed moreso for this situation)...
bah, who says Game Design schools teach you nothing ;)
#13
Game design ideas are worth something, but again, not nearly as important as many people believe. If your concept is good, and is pulled off well, clones will bury it alive soon enough. Unless you put a large amount of love into you work. That can't be cloned so easily.
04/24/2005 (1:53 am)
Yeah, I strongly agree that game ideas are a dime a dozen. It's silly how much weight some people put on them. I see it as akin to thinking of what you believe is the most beautiful sculpture in the world. Yes, the finished sculpture might be gorgeous, but you have to be able to make it. The idea of it is near worthless unless it's made into something people can experience. People don't care if you can imagine the most beautiful sculpture. You get respect if you can pull it off.Game design ideas are worth something, but again, not nearly as important as many people believe. If your concept is good, and is pulled off well, clones will bury it alive soon enough. Unless you put a large amount of love into you work. That can't be cloned so easily.
#14
What I am not doing is suggesting that one is harder then another.
Also, another thing that I meant to convey is that there are way more coders out here then artistists. It would take an artist any time at all to be picked up for a project. There is more of a demand for them since the primary group here is programmers.
04/24/2005 (3:54 am)
Dave what I meant by that is that You could in theory draw a rough sketch in a short ammount of time that can convey your abilities (to some degree) easier then the time it would take a programmer to code somthing to prove his abilities. A lot of this has to due with the demand of artists over coders.What I am not doing is suggesting that one is harder then another.
Also, another thing that I meant to convey is that there are way more coders out here then artistists. It would take an artist any time at all to be picked up for a project. There is more of a demand for them since the primary group here is programmers.
#15
04/24/2005 (4:02 am)
Charlie does make a very good point... in this community there are more programmers/scriptors than artists... that goes for all Torque engines
#16
true true. Sorry for the misinterpretation of what you were saying. So, all I can say is, good luck!
04/24/2005 (4:08 am)
@Charlie:true true. Sorry for the misinterpretation of what you were saying. So, all I can say is, good luck!
#17
As for the side argument..... I'm not getting involved! :) also seems like its been resolved, so anyway, will bump this topic when the time is right.
04/27/2005 (4:03 am)
Yikes, how time goes by, sorry guys I lost the thread here, seems I can only check up on this site every couple of days what with everything else life demands of me. Anyway, I will go and make a game with placeholder art and come back and ask again. It will be nice to work alongside an artist in order to cut down on development time (i.e. do code and art simultaneously rather than sequentially), however beggars can't be choosers.As for the side argument..... I'm not getting involved! :) also seems like its been resolved, so anyway, will bump this topic when the time is right.
#18
04/27/2005 (5:06 am)
I did post a set of place holder character sprites which you're free to use for whatever you want. Check this thread: www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=26883
#19
04/27/2005 (5:34 am)
Awesome stuff philip, this will definately come in handy for a future project I'm planning but have been putting off because I can't do characters :)
#20
Not every artist/coder combo will work for each other's projects. If people are interested in a strict echange like this, I (and any other interested artist) will post screenshots of what I can do and state what I need in code. So, Alex, and any other programmers, are you interested?
04/28/2005 (3:02 pm)
I'm in the artist struggling with code category. I'd be willing to do art for people who are willing to provide me with code. I'm not talking about teaming up on one game, I'm talking about an exchange of services. You give me character descriptions, I give you game mechanics descriptions, we put off working on our own projects long enough to do each other's dirty work, we both come out ahead in the end. I realize this kind of exchange would rely on the honor system for mutual satisfaction. I'm cool with that.Not every artist/coder combo will work for each other's projects. If people are interested in a strict echange like this, I (and any other interested artist) will post screenshots of what I can do and state what I need in code. So, Alex, and any other programmers, are you interested?
Torque Owner Matt Van Gorkom
Unfortunately I'm still figuring out the best way to do stuff so I don't think I can much help you :( I can barely help myself :P
If you look around there are tons of free sprites and such:
www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=272386
This site apparently lets you mix and match elements to create sprites:
charas-project.net/index.php?lang=it
EDIT:
Yes, that last one works suprisingly well. I created a green redneck elf with a dragonball Z hairstyle and a roman plume ;D I do so amuse myself.