Community management ideas

#1 Let me demonstrate what I'm talking about by example. Check out this thread. It's pretty long, so you don't have to read the whole thing, but you can get a feel for the general flow of it pretty quickly. Now, I just use this as an example-- I am not singling out anyone and I do not want anyone to criticize any of the posters in that thread. I just need an example to demonstrate how I'm thinking of address this stuff in the future, and this thread is the most recent example. The posts in this thread aren't even all that bad, and the posters in it are just doing their best to make their points. All good people, no doubt all with good intentions, it's just-- hey, people get in conflicts once in a while, it's natural. So, I'm not looking down on or criticizing anyone in that thread.

Alright, hope that is clear. So, looking at that thread, here's how I see it. It started out with a perfectly good post, asking about the animation system and a lack of features needed to do a particular game. Next, it was pointed out that, yes, T2D's animation system didn't have the features being asked about and that such features would be needed for lots of games. After that, some rather strongly worded remarks were made about T2D's animation design, and those were extended to T2D in general. Afterward, it seems the strong comments engendered a personal insult or two. Those insults appear to have been edited since, by the people that made them.

Next, some people were trying to figure out what exact problem the original poster was having, and trying to figure out if there was a way to do what was desired in the current animation system. Then, some more strong comments were made, and eventually I came in to say, essentially: "yes, this is a problem, and we know about it. We'll be working on it. And in the mean time, it's not hard at all to extend the current system. Please ask for help here in doing so if you need it."

From there, lots of back and forth happened, and eventually LabRat posted a workable stop-gap solution to the issues originally mentioned in the thread.

Now, this thread wasn't too bad or anything. But, in the future, with threads like that... I'd like to clean it up and just make it entirely solutions-oriented. So, I'd change this thread as such:

Keep the 1st, 2nd and 3rd posts. Edit the 4th so it says "Well, that's very disappointing. I need this support for my game badly. Devs, are you aware of this problem? I hope so! This is a very important thing to me, and I think this functionality is pretty basic and fundamental to a 2D animation system" and continue there with the question at the end. Keep the current (edited versions) of the follow-up posts until about the 7th where Tomas explains to others in more detail what functionality he's looking for, editing as appropriate to keep the focus on the problem at hand.

From there, I'd keep the thread and comments, but I'd edit the interpersonal back and forth and the cruft that isn't specifically about getting a solution to the animation issues pointed out in the thread. I'd keep my post explaining that yes, this is a problem that we're aware of, sorry for the inconvenience, and we'll be working on a solution (though, I'd probably edit my long-winded butt down quite a bit ;). I'd keep the follow-up suggesting that we make note of the areas in T2D we'll be working on heavily in the future. Keep the useful parts of the in-between and keep Harold's code posting a stop-gap solution and the follow-ups asking about how to use it, etc.

In the end... the thread would be very focused on pointing out the problems with the current animation system, and finding solutions to them. The tone overall would be much more friendly. In the end, I don't think we'd lose anything at all-- except a bunch of cruft that doesn't help anyone make games, nor help the vibe of this community.

#2 Moreover, if such edits were made near the beginning of the thread when problems first started, more edits probably wouldn't be necessary. The direction of the thread would've changed and likely ended up being more solution-oriented from the start.

Well... that's basically how I'm proposing to handle such things in the future. Again, I don't have much room in this forum for interpersonal conflict. To an extent, it's unavoidable, but we do have the ability to pretty drastically minimize it. I think this place would be even more helpful and friendly than it is now overall if we tried to do this. And, like I say, we'd keep all the specific feedback and problems pointed out hereno matter how "bad" the problem, pointing it out and discussing it is very useful for Torque 2D. So, we want that stuff. :) And if the posts in threads regarding problems are solely focused on pointing out issues, clarifying problems, and working toward solutions, we'll all be better off. If conflicts arose from such discussions, we'd just be cleaning up the tone at most, and removing insults and interpersonal stuff.

Also, when edits were made in a thread, we'd make a quick note that the thread had been edited so its focused on identifying problems and hopefully finding solutions.

With this policy in place as well, there wouldn't be much motivation for people to make useless, unhelpful, or conflict-inducing posts in the first place. So, that'd be another benefit.

What do you guys think about this idea? I'm pretty heavily leaning toward managing the community this way, and this is probably what we'll do. But wanted to get a quick read on this from others here.

To note: I am not looking for votes. :) I am looking for feedback and for alternative ideas. If there's some better way to handle things here, great, please share the suggestion. Or, if I've missed something in the above proposal that'd end up making things bad here, please let me know that too.

Whatever the case, I think we need to do something different than what we're doing now. Conflicts around here are pretty minimal, and even looking at the thread I'm using as an example-- it's not very bad at all. But, we can minimize unhelpful conflicts even more I think, and to me, that'd be a big plus for the community. As we grow larger, we'll need to have more community management, it's inevitable.

Note as well, I welcome opinions, and that's the reason I made this thread as opposed to just starting up this policy, but we'll ultimately end up doing whatever seems like it's going to make the forum the most friendly and helpful overall. So, opinions will definitely be considered, but I'm not saying this'll be majority rules or anything. :)

PS- Please, lets not have any names or personal criticisms in this thread. Right now, I don't care who makes "bad" posts or whatever... the point of this thread is not to single any post or posters out. Rather, I want to figure out solutions for community management here. Again, the need for some kind of community management is inevitable as the number of people in one place grows, and we could use a bit more of it here as we get bigger. Possible solutions to this need are all that I want to discuss. :)

#3 I think you covered it well... I personally think edits like that are very needed and more than appropriate... as you said with a little note (that way the person doesn't think it was a board error etc and also to warn that the topic should be kept).

I'm glad you are addressing this... lately I realized it had been affecting me some, on another board on the GG forums I was responding a bit snappy and realized I was a bit defensive from the tone some threads here have been taking... lol I quickly apologized and have since tried to keep my responses to potentially theatening situations short and to the point.

I think (like you have mentioned) that once this happens, the edits that is, people will realize there is no point in even posting comments that are personally insulting to people.

#4 If your planning on editing someone elses posts, I would recommend sending an email to them notifying them of why you felt the change was required. Obviously if a post contained personal insults, mud sligning or foul language, then a stock email with the forum rules would do.

However, in border line cases where you feel a persons post is valid but they may just have genuinly phrased it poorly and in such a way that is liable to cause a bit of flaming. Then letting the person know will help them avoid making the mistake again in the future.

Then again, out of all the forums I post in, this one certainly has a much higher signal to noise ratio :)

#5 Editing posts is an extremely hairy area. There is an overriding impression on every forum I've been to which has had an editing system for moderators that it's only a matter of time before it's abused. While I know that impression is not a valid concern here, it doesn't stop the impression. And since a number of other gaming/gamedev forums often have moderators chosen from the community, the equivalent to a forum urban myth often develops around various camps of users about abuse. Often it doesn't happen to them, but when it happens to someone who is vocal about their posts being edited, their complaints will perpetuate the abuse myth.

Perhaps a voting system akin to Slashdot's would help (though require a complete rewrite to the forum system, sadly). That way, the posts stay for the most part, but if they are rated below your threshold, they won't appear unless you dig deeper.

I personally can't wait for the TAP Wiki combined with the Google mini. I think that a Q/A section there would be a very strong benefit (as would the ability to move extremely helpful topics from the forums over to the Q/A section).

Just my thoughts. The other one on editing is to make sure that there's a notice that it was edited for clarification by the GG staff. If it's edited by the staff rather than giving the impression of it being modded by a faceless moderator, the impression is clearer in terms of professionalism. And breaking that knee-jerk impression of the probability (rather than possibility) of abuse in terms of editing posts.

#6 Thanks guys. Yeah, definitely would note that edits were made and that they were made by staff.

As for abuse, all I can really offer is a personal promise not to do that. And, as I say, there's not much point in abuse here. Feedback benefits us, honestly, and especially when we keep it oriented in a helpful, friendly manner. Moreover, this is a totally private forum, so there's not even any motivation to shove shortcomings under the rug or whatever. No potential purchaser can see this stuff. :) Anyway, for whatever it's worth, I'm just not the kind of person who'd try to hide stuff, even if this forum were public. Always found that such practices backfire, and I just find it much smarter to be open and upfront about issues. As you can see in the thread I linked to above as well, I'm pretty open about where we think T2D needs to be improved and what we'll be working on. :) Also willing to admit when a system isn't yet as slick as it could/should be, as you can see.

As for sending emails and whatnot, I'll try to do that along side a forum post, but I doubt I'll have time to do so every time. I kid you not, the 8-1X hours I spend at work each day are usually spent frantically typing and/or in meetings. Forum posts are usually just done multi-task fashion while I'm waiting on an SVN checkout, a compile, an IM reply (Melv and I do almost all our interfacing via IM and email :), etc. So, I need to keep this as lightweight on my time as possible.

Re: a slashdot-like rating system, that'd rock. But I know it's not on the immediate to-do list for the web crew, so it's not likely to happen atm. I'd love to have that at some point though, good idea.

#7 Josh, this is a GREAT idea! The problem as I see it is people will feel insulted as a result of an edit. They will feel singled-out and make all kinds of noise about fairness. I don't think that should deter you from doing it, but I know it will piss people off.

#8 I know that you wouldn't abuse the editing feature, but my concern was with whether or not being edited would give the impression of probable abuse. It's the knee-jerk reactionaries that I'm worried about in terms of this.

#9 @Josh: Sounds like a great idea.

Too many people confuse private forums with public auditoriums. This is your house, and we're your guests. We bought software, nothing more. The license doesn't include the right to belittle, bash, rant, moan, whine, scream, or insult you in your own home. Your house, your rules.

Having direct interaction with the developers and other customers is critical to everyone's success. Anything you can do that encourages GG folks to stay active (and positive) in the forum is great in my book.

#10 Re: perceptions of editing, I hear ya. Definitely a concern. I'd just hope and expect that over time people would come to understand that moderation of personal insults and distracting conflicts is a good thing for everyone, and that we'd prove that some moderation is a good thing as we go along. Like I say too, just knowing that pointless posts will be moderated away will hopefully lower the frequency of pointless posts. And if so, there'd be less need for moderation anyway.. resulting in less likelihood people would notice and possibly be offended by it. ;)

So, hopefully this would all work out alright, but it's definitely a good thing to be careful about.

#11 Not to mention that's it's something that the GG folks have been doing for a while already in the various forums here, so it's nothing new :)
Announcing it as policy is of course going to raise eyebrows, but I think it's all good.
Not sure how you're going to find the time to do it 'though Josh ;)
Cheers, keep up the great work

#12 I think posts that are personal attacks should be locked. Bad thing is sometimes good threads can get
damaged. But yea you guys are so busy that's the trick to play forum police. There needs to be a reporting feature
like Lithium forums have. Where if a personal attack is going on we can forward that and it can be taken care off.
Sort of a fire line.

#13 I'll help Josh. I volunteer. Grant me those demi-god powers and I'll be the benevolent dictator. MUA-HAHAHA!!

#14 Coming from forums where reply deletion/topic deletion/reply editing is a fact of life, I'm surprised you haven't been doing so all along. Controlling people is never easy, and in a place like a forum where you have less influence than in real life, strong measures are often a neccessity.

But at least most of the riff-raff is kept out by the $100 entry fee.

#15 A small amount of war on the forum is a good sign of heath. As the internet goes... so does garage games.

From time to time the forum gods shall strike down teh noobith that crosses thy line.

#16 Yes, I believe editing is a good idea in the more extreme situations. But I also believe in more harsh consequences for those the continually screw up on the forums. Maybe a three strikes rule to ban the poster for a week or two (no longer than that) would curb this behavior before it starts. The ban should probably include time off the irc rooms too. Not having access to the GG community for a week or two will make them realize how valuable the resource is that they're abusing, and should remedy long-term bahavior in most cases IMO.

Also, another good thing to do along with editing posts is to privately contact the offender and get some sympathetic dialogue going with him to try and understand the fundemental problem. A burden, I know, but also very beneficial toward the stated goal.

Really, I see post editing as more of a band-aid. People seem to just get even more angered when their posts get edited, so that may end up making things even more flammable in the long term... And the GG staff probably has better things to do than chasing forum fires all the time - not to mention the frustration that GG peeps just don't deserve or need. I think you can nip most of the problems in the bud with week long bans - this will not just alter the now, but should also alter future attitudes. Losing access to the GG community will change the perspective of the abuser to a new found appreciation for what has been lost. This will increase the abuser's perceived value of the community. Since people act solely on their values, this change of values should reform their actions, thus meeting the stated goal of a friendlier community.

#17 Listen guys. Have anyone seen even single person whose behaviour has been so that he deserves his posts edited? Banned?

Spanking a bad child is a poor and little efficient way of resolving problems. Public spanking however is asking for trouble.

#18 Edit: Yes(more than one), ban: no

#19 Maybe you should be a bit more forgiving then :)

#20 Lol maybe so

though there have been some fairly blatant posts on these boards that either should be edited or removed... at least in my opinion.

In any case there have been some posts that go into personal insults, I think we'd all agree that is not appropriate on the boards, I think mild editing will show that GG won't stand for that junk on their boards... though I agree with not going overboard (and I know Josh would never go even near to overboard)

Discipline can be good, if people think they can do what they want (even in disregard to others) without being stopped can lead to some very bad things