Porn (& Violence) in Games Rant

#1 Part 2/2

Regarding adult games, speaking from a (good for the industry) standpoint (although there are others) if any1's been reading/noticed all the uproar games (past & present) like gta, postal, manhunt etc has caused, i'll goals should be providing gameplay intensive games (while they can challenge in their subject) that don't provide blatant ammunition to the press/media to damage the game industry that we love's image.

Forget the age censorship/consent stuff, for example, it is well documented by the media (to marketing level, at least in the UK) that kids easily get games like gta3+ in the major stores without id or checks, they even showed a documentary where half a whole primary school had owned/ played manhunt/gta.

But let me put this to you, what i've come to accept as far as morals and ethics go, and creating multimedia of any kind,

NO KIND OF CENSORSHIP will work in terms of keeping it out the hands of all people under 18, so if you want to/are selling 18+ content, you might as will give it to one 14 year old directly, because i can promise you at least 1 person will get their hands on it whether it was your intention or not, and for some, that's too much.

Basicially, unless you are willing to watch a porn movie with any (even 1) 14 year old or borrow them a porn movie, or directly sell them one, you can't honestly say you can happily make one to sell for adults only. This goes for senseless violence of (virtual) human beings also.

So for me, i will only make things that i can happily have girls, boys, men & women play and/or view. It doesn't mean i'm stuck with making mario games and cute platformers, it just means (for me personally), i don't have to worry about lawsuits, morals and ethics of my media.

I don't provide ammunition for people/press and i give parents/adults 'piece of
mind' regarding their kids and their upbringing.

If you make something, and you have to worry about the ethics and morals (unless based on life/a true story/dealing with racism/sexism or a game where your a prositute trying to get out that life etc) your problay doing something wrong in the first place ;)

Besides, it's more challenging to do a game that breaks the entertainment industry showbiz mold of sex and violence sells, select naked chick and kill, kill, kill! I remember a hollywood industry rep telling a journalist that there's a difference between 'guns, and glamourious guns', what? Oh, so as long as your gun has versace all other it, feel free to kill people with it, otherwise you bad taste is wrong?

Where already becoming more & more like the film industry (realistic this, visual that), who in-turn are becoming more & more like the porn industry (a film recently given general release that has it's actress giving real oral sex, i want say the name, that would be free marketing ;)).

I'm not trying to tell any1 what to do some much, or turn every1's attitude in one post, but i think you have to accept that you can't sell fire without seeing the smoke, kids will, kids have, kids do and kids are getting their hands on and exposed to unsuitable content, some even subject to it (child porn etc).

So in conclusion, if you want to get your message/product to as much people as possibly (it's called multimedia), you have to face the fact that you can and will affect people positively or negatively. So more then others, and you can't have 100% control of where and who the message get's to if you want to reach as many people as possible (as is the case with entertainment/showbiz), therefore all we can do is send out a positive (even if strong or real) message that when it does (and it will, believe me) get to a child, it's a good one!

Because, we don't need to have kids to be parenting kids, we don't need to be with are kids for them to learn and be influenced. We have a responsibility not just as game/would be game developers, musicians, actors, filmakers, writers or even as adults, but as (so-called) human beings!

#2 Here's a tip, most women I know, are just as raunchy if not more so, than their male counterparts. You just have to be raunchy in a tasteful way. For instance, whereas a man may be "Turned On", by the site of genitalia in an adult magazine, a women would probably be turned off this, and generally might find that the Illusion of genitalia (for instance a man in his undies), is far more arousing.

#3 Hey,


I'm not going to base my post off of what you have just posted, but almost continue from the other thread...

I personally think there isn't anything wrong with sex in games... Granted, it can cause kids to experament, and think about it even more than they are as it is, but the fact is that sex is "ok", it isn't a bad thing.... I think that a game based around sex would sell, but a fundamental really should be, or would have to be protection, to show the "horrors" that can happen withought protection, and say, for instance, have your avatar be less atractive, or have a negative affect somehow on the other players around him, because, for instance lets say that he was not using protection and managed to get "one of those nasty sex diseases that I'm not going to menshion"....

For keeping it out of kids hands, I would say that it would be nessacary also to have a sort of questionair before you can acess the game, for instance...

Question the player with sex terms and other things relating to make sure that he/she has enough knowledge on the subject, hell, with that it wouldn't be a matter of age, more of a matter of knowing your stuff than age.... Question them with per say 20 questions relating to sex, mebe one or two of how to protect yourself and whatnot... So not nessacaraly keeping kids around the age of 16 or so from playing the game, but it really is ok to be able to see something if you already know whats going on, and aren't going to get exposed to things that are going to up your age in a matter of mins...

I have most likley been quite confuzing, but if you manage to make sence of it please tell what your oppinion is along with what Leroy has to say...

For the ladies, well, the game would be truly greatly outnumbered guys to girls, but only one way to find out... Could use another questionair to make sure that it is actually a woman... Because, face it, there are many guys out there that just don[t take the time to learn some things about the ladies...

Oh, and also, lets not get into morals guys... We all have our own, but look at the world we live in today, games can inforce morals and can kill them... We can really decide which one of them we want to do, etheir one isn't hard to get across to the player....

just my few cents, Max

#4 Fact is, sex sells. The idea of sex for the sake of adding sex is just stupid and that's why games like bmxxx didn't work out.

Come on, when was the last time you seen a topless girl doing back flips on a bike? And if you have, do you have pictures :)

#5 Guys, your missing my main point, im not trying to waste yours and my time by trying to convince you sex doesn't sell (come on, financially, the porn industry is bigger then hollywood) every1 know this already (at least i hope so),
or that your not attracted to naked women, or you don;t like killing things with naked women around, or you don't do strip bars etc, please.

All i'm simply saying is

A)if it needs to be out of the reach of kids, you have to accept it's gonna get in few kids hands (usually more, a al gta3 and half the school owning/playing it example stated in my orginal post)
(With the intention for people to realise this is fact and therefore reconsider the idea that it's okay to sell/make them because you can censor it)

B)my personal reasons why i don't partake in it and wouldn't sell it (not with the intention of you to share the same view, just to let people know why)

Also, it's a bit of a coup out to say sex sells so let's do the same!?, or censorship (18 certificates) are gonna stop kids from getting 18+ stuff

That's like saying you can 100% stop terrorists coming through the country by giving them an 18+ card or making them fill out naff quesionaires?!?

With this in mind, if your not bothered that a few/lot of kids get their hands on such things, then this doesn't apply to you, but you wouldn't be looking after/teaching my kid any time soon! After all, it only takes a weak mind to copy something they see.

Kid's killing younger/more or having sex earlier, pregnant younger etc aren't by accident or evolution (and no, i'm not saying that games are responsible all the time for all of the youth troubles before any1 posts that ;-), but it sure as heck doesn't help) and multimedia has a big deal to do with that rise.

#6 So basically, you're saying that if there's the tiniest possibility of kids finding a forgotten bag in subway with M-rated game in it, all games should be made keeping that in mind.
Oh, how about R-rated? or PG? Nah, lets just make everything-mario.

I'm sorry for sounding like jerk, but stuff above is exactly what i read from your post. There's a reason for those ratings. You should probably preach not in developers forums, but some parental portals, educating masses who ignore ratings while shopping for their kids and later being the first throwing the stone.

I can understand your wish to make games for general public, well, that's nice, but its your very personal choice, akin "from now on I'll buy only low-fat milk" or "i should start jogging in mornings, really" - that is - of no big relevance to others.

#7 @ Nauris Krauze:

"kids finding a forgotten bag in subway with M-rated game in it, all games should be made keeping that in mind"

Exactly, but more importantly,
As i said already, just because *EDIT: huh?, what was i gonna say again?*

"lets just make everything-mario"

I'll quote my self again on that line

"It doesn't mean i'm stuck with making mario games and cute platformers, it just means (for me personally), i don't have to worry about lawsuits, morals and ethics of my media.

I don't provide ammunition for people/press and i give parents/adults 'piece of
mind' regarding their kids and their upbringing.

If you make something, and you have to worry about the ethics and morals (unless based on life/a true story/dealing with racism/sexism or a game where your a prositute trying to get out that life etc) your problay doing something wrong in the first place ;)

Besides, it's more challenging to do a game that breaks the entertainment industry showbiz mold of sex and violence sells, select naked chick and kill, kill, kill! I remember a hollywood industry rep telling a journalist that there's a difference between 'guns, and glamourious guns', what? Oh, so as long as your gun has versace all other it, feel free to kill people with it, otherwise you bad taste is wrong?"

no skipping text next time!

"You should probably preach not in developers forums, but some parental portals, educating masses who ignore ratings while shopping for their kids and later being the first throwing the stone."

It's nothing to do with preaching, it's a point. I'm saying the idea that putting 18 on things that need an 18 rating because it can have an effect on younger people is in the first place, is not a justification to make it available nor sell it.

Also, as i said before, if this fact doesn't bother you, then fair enougth, but for some people it does (because they care or they don't want bad press and lawsuits or both), if you do, then your only real choice is to avoid selling 18+, because it will get to at least one kid.

E.g. Two people having explicit sex in a game/film is the same as 2 people having sex in front of that kid after a long day, no, okay, put film yourself having sex, and give it to that child as a substitute, it still amounts to the same thing.

It goes without saying that parents are responsible also, for instance, on the same programme i mentioned above, some the parents bought gta for their minors and said they didn't know it was an 18+ game?! Come on!?

#8 I think a majority of the responsibility lies on the parent. They should be active in their childs life, at least enough to have an idea what they are playing (or at least try). A lot of parents by their kids these games without knowing what they are, they should do research, read reviews, heck look at the labels that are right there!

I also think some of the responsibility falls on the developer... You should look it at objectively and evaluate whether your game is something you would be offended by... is it something that you feel should represent you personally as well as your company? Then I also think you should consider whether it shows your pride in your work (this goes for ethics, game quality, effort, etc)...

#9 I find this assumption that awareness of sex is inherently a bad thing to be really a bit weird. While I agree that for the most part, the way sex is portrayed in games is unhealthy, I do not think that it is sex itself that is the problem.

I mean, really, is seeing a breast going to traumatize a kid from a young age? That assumption stems from good old puritan-style ethics. God forbid that anyone should know that babies don't come from storks prior to marriage. Hate to say it, but that doesn't lead to healthy social development either. Sex is part of being human and, from my observation, to plain out pretend it doesn't exist causes just as much mental trauma to people as going overboard with it.

I had very straitforward parents, I was aware of where babies came from at a fairly young age and was taught that sex was not bad, but was very a very special and private bond between two people. I think that I am a pretty well balanced member of society despite (or because of) that knowledge.

I do think that good games could be made with sexual themes. The problem is, as with violent games, it is easy to make something that is "fun" as a game (from the gameplay point of view) and yet has dispicable social implications. It is much harder to make a game with real redeeming social values, that is capable of portraying sex (or violence) as something other than a "gameplay goal." I dout that this could be done well outside of the RPG or humor genres, but I don't think that it is impossible.

Some responses:

While I agree that I certainly wouldn't want to work in the sex industry, or have anyone I know work there, I would say the same of the military... yet, I play military shooters like counterstrike. Ironic? Hypocritical? Fact is that playing a military shooter is simply not the same thing as actually going out and blowing people up.

Quote:It doesn't mean i'm stuck with making mario games and cute platformers, it just means (for me personally), i don't have to worry about lawsuits, morals and ethics of my media.

Don't think that making cute platformers makes you not have to worry about morals of ethics. Sure, you may not get sued for the social effect such games have on people, but there is a lot more to teaching ethics things than sex and violence.

Quote:If you make something, and you have to worry about the ethics and morals (...) your problay doing something wrong in the first place ;)

In my opinion, if you make something and you DON'T worry about those things, then you are definitely doing something wrong.

Quote:Besides, it's more challenging to do a game that breaks the entertainment industry showbiz mold of sex and violence sells, select naked chick and kill, kill, kill!

I completely agree with you here. I don't think that sex or violence should be the selling point of a game, but I also don't think that they cannot be used as very effective storytelling elements. Generally, though, they are simply used as stupid blunt instruments of marketing.

I don't have the answer. If such an answer existed, we would already have a perfect society. I do think that it is very important to be aware of ethical issues in any form of media, but I do not think that censorship for censorship's sake is a good thing at all. I certainly don't want someone else deciding what I have to teach my children. I would prefer to raise them so that when they did encounter such things, they would be informed enough to know a despicable act from a joyful one.

#10 Guys,

Was just thinking, and the fact is that the kids/guys/girls/people in general that are going to be playing games like this will have a majority of people that aren't having sex, or aren't in relationships.... Just a guess, but the kids who go on about sex will be the kids playin the game, and the kids who don't obcess over it aren't goin to be playing the game...

Why do we feel the need to protect kids that are 14+ from the "horors" of sex and night life? We all learn it at some point.... It isn't like the kids are just going to jump up from the game and say, I never knew this existed! I'm going to go have sex this very instant!

Well, I might actually be a terrable example for this all, because I knew more than half of the stuf there is to know about the subject at ten.... But I'll let you all decide... Make your games if they are going to be on this subject, then see about getting them out there, everything is contraversiol in it's own way... look at "poacher"...


Max

#11 Leroy,I guess I just didnt see the point of the discussion and your point in particular. There's been dozens of forum threads on this topic and they've all been like one of those weird conversations where everyone just waits till other person stops talking so they can start. Its not a discussion.

As I said, its nice and dandy that you plan on making games everyone can play regardless of age. I just dont think its worth of a forum post. I think its like making a topic named "I'll make just strategy games". Well, cool.

I'm sorry if there was something else of significant nature in your posts, if so, I'm just too thick to see it.

#12 Nauris, I was simply giving my thoughts on a previous post, not original maybe, and therefore irrelevant to the likes of yourself, but interesting for some, none the less

"I'll make just strategy games"

I think your making an unwise & unfair generalisation that if you make stuff under 18+ (or suitable for most), your stuck with RTS's and platform games with cute characters.

I mean i play halo 2, Syberia 1/2, PES, metal gear solid, splinter cell, UnrealT, i could go on, a very mixed bunch of genres, hardly PG and hardly 18+ and hardly non-violent!

Besides, if you think it's so irrellevant, tell all the game industry, game developers, game conference rants/debates, media and general folk that be asking the same un-original questions/forum posts.

But fair enougth. I said it was a rant, not an original rant :)

#13 Yeah, well, sorry, I'm out of my chill pills, so I can sound a little harsh in absence of immediate constructive posts.

The fact is - nothing really constructive can be said on topic as you've defined it. Kids can get their hands on everything. True. That includes drain cleaners, machine guns and probably ebola virus. The thing is - although there are most likely tens of kids suffering from drain cleaners their parents forgot to screw cap on, it'd be silly to suggest chemicals industry to create drain cleaners that do not burn your skin.
All you can hope for is that parent *will* use those weird bottle caps I still have problem opening although i'm kinda quite out of the "risk age".

#14 @Leroy,

I think Nauris was just saying that your post could be summarized as "Hey torque community, i've decided to make only games of type xyz.", not that the only -18 games are RTS.


One piece of advice for future rants - keep it short.
I'm pretty interested in this topic, but the length and ramblingness of your post was too much for me and i just skipped down to the shorter comments.

#15 Come now guys, this is starting to look like www.slashdot.org/

#16 Yep, it is a little long, and i'd be a lier if i said i didn't skip super 2 page rants like mines, but hey, i've read larger ones, depends on the day i guess.

#17 Leroy, your whole argument to my post was about children getting the product. And I agree that is an issue with any game.

But what is killing me here, not with you but with everyone who thinks that radio should calm down and games should be less violent because of the kids, etc... Is that it is my kid. It is my obligation to raise my children right. The whole mentality of "We should take it away because kids...." is crap. It is not our governments' job to baby-sit our children. We are a free country that cries when are freedom is compromised yet expects the same government that takes bits and pieces of our freedom to make laws that will take more bits and pieces of our freedom. So someone else can cry about that.

I don't understand the logic of this.

Again, I am not saying that is what you believe, it's just a society thing in whole that is bugging the hell out of me lately.

Let me have my freedom and let me be accountable for my kid's action. That's all I have to say about that.

Edit: I do realize that you are in the UK and that I am in the US but it speaks true anywhere that calls themselves a free country.

#18 @Charlie: I understand your concern regarding freedom and i am aware and also agree with the notion that some people shift blame or look for others to look after them and their affairs to often.

@all:
Most of the mainstream media know little, if any, about the games industry other then the money it's making or rockstar (insert controversial game here) and they act like their warning parents, but a lot of time their just giving them (devs/publishers in question) free marketing.

Although, i'm not really debating whether people think censorship works or not, my orignal point is it's a nonsense to do 18+ stuff and say that your concerned about kids and parents (which you obviously have to be to some degree, otherwise you wouldn't put/have to put age and warnings of any kind)

You can't do 18+ and say how can i stop kids from getting it (if they want it, they always will get). Your either bothered (and if you are, the only real way of making sure is don't make/sell em) or not, in which case fine, but i don't think you can be both.

Other then that (i know many others don't agree) i believe that while my first paragraph is true, it is my responsibility as much as parents or government or anyone to react positively to what people are concerned with (you have to decipher lack of knownledge, media hype or general real concern) and make life a little bit easier. It's a cop out and uncool to do a corporate and say "not our problem"

But again, i know i'm alone here, but thanks for your thoughts/opinion none the less, i get the picture that most developers/publishers/gamers don't see it as their problem and will do people no favours other then age/warnings (avoid lawsuits and legal hassle), fair enougth, i think parents should understand this, and hopefully be a bit more careful/smarter about what they let their kids obtain/view.

I guess i'll be breaking the "your problem, not mine"/corporate mold alone in the minority (i've read articles of other developers that agree with my view, and are thinking about what they make, assuming that it will get in kids hands, regardless of the intention/intended audience), but a worthwhile challenge in my opinney ;).

#19 Well, wash in your moral superiority, while those unfortunates who happen to make games other than PG are shamed into corner. Shame on you, guys, do you take pride in what you do? Really? Well, remember, kiddies could play your game... aha.. now you're blushin'!

And I'll devote my life trying to contact and shame developers of Half-Life, Thief, SWAT, Max Payne, Rainbow6, Splinter Cell, Warhammer 40 000, Halo2, Silent Hill, Gothic and bunch of others who dared to make M-rated games, in spite the fact that 7 year olds could theoretically play their game. Shame on them (and you, since you seem to like some of those in the list too, dont you care about kiddies?)

#20 We could debate forever over the moral questions, but I'd like to assume that these elements will (and should) always exist and consider the realities of the game industry today. There are some in the industry who are unable to succeed without using sex as a crutch (I'm ignoring violence, because I don't think it's the same issue at all). It's like a comedian who can't think of anything truly funny, so he shocks you with vulgarity instead. And how many porn stars can really act, or porn producers/directors have a lick of talent? They resort to this kind of "entertainment" because anyone who is free of moral guidance can do it. Talent isn't a factor. And surprisingly, competition isn't too bad, because most people refuse to create this kind of content. So this kind of vulgarity is a niche, and there will always be people who are more than willing to fill it.

What concerns me about the game industry today is that, being primarily a young man's industry, this porn and rock-and-roll image seems all too appealing to the creative influences. So while there are always plenty of clean, family oriented games around, the ones that really get the "COOL" treatment are games like Extreme Beach Volleyball. And you need only watch a videogame awards show, with every other guest either a rock star or a porn actress, to see how the industry wants to portray itself. There will always be this base element in any industry. The film industry has its porn flick element, magazines have Playboy and the like, there are plenty of hardcore books out there, and music has plenty of vulgar acts to choose from. But it's extremely important that the greater industry distance itself from these elements. Don't censor it, obviously. But don't embrace it either. As long as the videogame industry continues to embrace this element of game design, it will continue to be viewed with the same lack of respect as the porn industry, and never achieve the kind of acceptance that it deserves as a mainstream media. Some believe that sales is all that matters, but very few media outsell pornography, and yet the porn industry will never achieve the elevation of the general film industry.

Videogames can become as well respected as film, but only by embracing the higher standards, while accepting the lower standards as unavoidable. Mimicking the film industry with things like awards shows will only carry us so far. What we need to do is present content that pushes the envelope of entertainment. As an interactive media, videogames have the potential to outshine film by drawing "viewers" into the story in ways a film simply can't. When videogames transport players in the same ways films transport viewers, when the escape is as complete as with the best films and books, then we'll have an industry to rival all others (as far as I'm concerned, we already do). And yes, interactive porn will be there. The question is, will it be front and center, driving our industry, or will it be in the back alleys, something most of us are embarrassed to acknowledge? That choice is up to those of us in the industry, and as far as I can tell, we're currently choosing the former rather than the latter.