"affiliated in any way with the Licensee"?

#1 I think you're misreading it. The affiliation they speak of is basically of a supporting company like a publisher or investor (for the ever so rare people that come across that money). Everyone has day jobs here, and just about any company that has more than 5 employees pulls in $250,000 a year. It's basically a catch-all phrase for business links to your game, not an unrelated day-job.

Of course, standard "I'm not a GG employee" disclaimers apply to what I just said, but that's the gist of it.

#2 As was pointed out to me in another topic about this by Jeff, this is to protect GG from having large companies and publishers abuse the indie license, not to stop indie developers from developing games.

As per your example, Melv May (the author of Torque 2D) works for a large company that deals with imaging technology. He's dealt with airport scanners, medical technology, etc. His company makes a little more than $250,000. But he uses Torque personally, without his corporate affiliation, and only has to have the Indie license to produce games. At least until he is rolling in dough!

#3 Thanks for the replies. I would have thought along the same lines as what you've both said. Intuitively that makes sense. They can't possibly require Indie game developers to be unemployed or to only work at a small company. Of course they don't want game development companies getting their employees to go out and buy indie licenses as thats not the point of the Indie license.

So, I'm sure it makes sense that their intent is in line with what we're saying. Its just that the actual EULA doesn't say this. If you read the EULA as its written, you could be in trouble if you work for a large company and want to develop Indie games on your own on the side.

It would seem to me that a simple mod to the license could clear this up. For example, how about something along the lines of the below?

Quote:(b) Licensee may not use the Indie License if the annual revenue of the Company employing, partnering, or affiliated in any way with the Licensee for purposes of game development using the product is greater than $250,000 annually. ...

I'm not a lawyer, but maybe something along those lines?

#4 That leaves the following hole though... if I decided to enter into a contract for a company to create the main character for my game and they make more then 250,000 annually then I would have to purchase a comercial license...

#5 If you can afford to pay a company who has more than $250,000 in annual revenue to create the main character for your game... you should be able to afford the $495 commercial license.

But generally I'd say that if you were contracting work to someone else, as in having someone create a model for you.. then you wouldn't be required to buy the commercial license. The clause is more for someone who is having their development, or distribution subsidised by a larger entity.

#6 I'm not paying anyone to help create the game. I'm creating the game by myself as an independent developer. I happen to be affiliated with a company with > $250k in revenue through my employment, but that affiliation is not related to my activities creating games.

The EULA talks about employment or affiliation. My understanding it that the intent only includes employment or affiliation related to game development using the engine, but the EULA isn't worded that way which is why I raised the question in the first place.

#7 Really the best way to get questions about the EULA answered is to send an E-Mail to GG's

#8 I guess the way to look at it is through affiliation of your company... Technically you aren't making your game, your company is... hence if you have additional employment then that clause doesn't apply to you, since you are not your company.

#9 ᳿

#10 And Valve has said that you can use Worldcraft to work on Torque, yet their EULA disagrees, and the community wisdom is to follow the EULA, not the conflicting statements offered by employees.

I think you've got to apply the same standard to GG's EULAs, too.

#11 Indie license : only games as stated by the EULA.
Frogger, i'm sorry but you shouldn't ever say stuff like you just did...
The idea is not that GG would come or not after you, the idea is that we should respect our licensing terms if we want them to stick around for another 5 years...

You want to do something else than a game, whatever your revenue ?
Get a commercial license, it's that simple.

You're in doubt about revenues : get a commercial license, it's still a steal at 495 (395 for upgrade)

You work for a big company ? They should get as many commercial license seats as they need, and you should be using one of them while working for them. That simple.

250k is pretty low a ceiling for a reason : at a 100 bucks it's a gift to help people started, at 495 it's still a steal.

You're in doubt and want to do the right thing ?
Get a commercial license, it'll help GG break even, and you'll be free to use TGE for whatever you want :)

#12 He didn't say that he wants to make non-game applications. He says that his company makes non-game applications. He's worried about the word affiliation within the EULA since he is employed at a company that makes above the commercial license amount (as do I, since I work at a university with an Oracle budget several times the commercial cost). Does that make him an affiliate of that company if he makes his own games on his own time? The legalese seems to suggest it.

I think the problem is that we're all using a different definition of "affiliated". Reading through it, it can be loosely connected (as an affiliation is at base a connection between two or more entities) or it can mean contextually connected (as in being employed by a company that wishes to abuse the license). It's a common way to cast a wide net against abuses.

id's license for Radiant and Valve's license for Hammer are explicit in the terms of use within in EULA. Asking for clarification for context in the segments about non-commercial use in those EULA's doesn't make sense. He was simply asking for clarification about GG's intent with the term "affiliated."

#13

Quote:Really the best way to get questions about the EULA answered is to send an E-Mail to GG's

well, this forum is dedicated to license discussions :-)

Quote:I guess the way to look at it is through affiliation of your company... Technically you aren't making your game, your company is... hence if you have additional employment then that clause doesn't apply to you, since you are not your company.

no, its the other way around. My company is _not_ making the game, I am. I have an affiliation (employment) with a large company and do non-game related SW development. I also want to develop games on the side. So, I have an affiliation but not related to game development using the Torque engine.

Quote:But many people also use the Torque engine for things other than game development.

Quote:Indie license : only games as stated by the EULA.
Frogger, i'm sorry but you shouldn't ever say stuff like you just did...

from what I've read, you can use the Torque engine for non-game development, you just have to have a commercial license. granted, you could probably come up with a very broad definition of what a game is, so that'd be a tough one to actually call someone on. What I'm doing is definitely a game.

Quote:You work for a big company ? They should get as many commercial license seats as they need, and you should be using one of them while working for them. That simple.

That is not my situation. Yes, I work for a large company, but my work for them is not on games and won't be using the Torque engine. I'm doing game development on the side.

Quote:He was simply asking for clarification about GG's intent with the term "affiliated."

Actually, in my situation, I fall under the "employment" and "affiliated" clauses and there's not much ambiguity in the term "employment". If you're following the letter of the EULA as its written, then you couldn't work for a large company and use the Indie license on the side, even if your work for the large company is not game development using the Torque engine. I can't imagine that this is what they intended, but this is how the EULA reads.

#14 You are reading far too much into the EULA. The EULA is around Game Devopment and the affiliations around that. Not your non-game development day job, the bank where your checking acount is and therefor "affiliated" with, etc.

If you are that concerned upgrade to the comercial License. If GG comes back later and says "hey you made a lot of money and don't qualify for the indi License" you can upgrade then.

For futher clarification See FAQ - How Do I Qualify For the Indie License?

Legal Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer.

Edit - Fixed link

#15

Quote:You are reading far too much into the EULA. The EULA is around Game Devopment and the affiliations around that. Not your non-game development day job, the bank where your checking acount is and therefor "affiliated" with, etc.

Quote:For futher clarification See FAQ - How Do I Qualify For the Indie License?

your opinion about the intent of the Indie license and the FAQ link you provided agree with what I stated earlier as being my impression of what the intent was. I never said I thought they intended to prevent someone from using the Indie license in the way I've discussed (see my earlier posts). What I said is that the way the EULA is written could indicate this.

Quote:If you are that concerned upgrade to the comercial License. If GG comes back later and says "hey you made a lot of money and don't qualify for the indi License" you can upgrade then.

if you read my post, you'll see the income limit is not the issue.

#16

Quote:
What I said is that the way the EULA is written could indicate this.

Ah so your issue isn't with what does GG intent/policy is or what the average person feels. Your concern is to what would a court of law take this wording to mean if taken to that extreme. Is that a fair statement? If so you would need a lawyer or go through some court cases to find out. I am not a lawyer.

Sorry to have misread the intent of these post and comment in a direction that this thread wasn't intended on addressing.

#17 Have your lawyer call GG's lawyer and hash out the details. They are, after all, lawyers and know more about such things than any of us. Or at least we pay them like they do.