What have been your biggest challenges so far?

#41 The biggest challenge I face day to day w/ T2D is trying to balance all the design decisions we have to make. I have to think about them seriously almost every day. From little stuff like what to name things so it's easy for people to understand, to big decisions like how the engine is structured, how subsystems work, and how we should implement the code so it's fast, flexible, easy to understand, easy to modify, clean, and on and on.

Just all that design stuff is no little bit of work in and of itself. Let alone all the implementation, which on the C++ side of things, Melv mostly does (I've done heavy C++ coding for so many years now... I didn't think I'd ever want to step back from it, but I'm really digging my role here as development director now... I get to do the code design and help implementation along when necessary, but I no longer have to do much nitty-gritty work. Woot! On T2D, I'm glad I get to work with such an amazing coder. )

This C++ code design work is very challenging. Luckily, I have the best partner in crime I could ever ask for. Melv and I talk about design decisions in detail very frequently. I think somehow we magically end up getting it right for the most part, and I think we make a great team. Never had a better work experience.

And that's just the C++ code. Let alone all the work and thinking we do on scripts, demos, and the structure there. Then there's the actual implementation again, which we both do and isn't challenging-- except that we put ourselves on such aggressive schedules, that it's hard to meet our own goals when it comes to getting things done ultra-quickly! And let alone again all the design we're putting into the forthcoming editors. UI design is a very, very important and difficult thing. As we move on here soon to doing more and more editor work, this is going to get more challenging day-to-day. It's just as hard as game programming. Melv and I are experts at game programming and code design, but we aren't at all in UI design. So, I'm trying to get us hooked up with people that are UI experts. More info to come.

Aye carumba! :) Lots of work, lots and lots of big challenges.

Anyway, I'd be really interested in hearing, in particular, what challenges people face when learning T2D, and what new challenges are coming up after you get past that initial hump of learning the basics of the engine and how to get things on screen.

Matt, great thread! This is very helpful, love to read stuff like this. It's good, we want to try to help people past their challenges, and make T2D as easy to use as possible.

Keep the comments coming guys, thanks! (And despite my remarks above, please keep the replies on-topic. Appreciate all the kind words and stuff, but I already know I'm a poor bastard. No need to talk about it more. ;) I'm ecstatic to be where I'm at, so no need for sympathy at all.)

#42 Lol your a bad influence Josh! (EDIT: just so everyone knows that is very extreme sarcasm... Josh is one of the hardest working people I have ever met!) ok well maybe I'm a worse one since I hijack threads 10x worse than you *shrug* ... Ouch, not much to spare... If I could respect you GG guys any more I would (though I think I respect you all as much as possible already :)... though I can definately understand, been thinking of it and if my team and I were to make enough off our games and web design to just barely make it I would still be insanely happy, just to do what I enjoy all day long! Definately can relate and hopefully will be in that same boat with the same limited funds :)
(much much appreciation to all you at GG, for all you do for getting such little! Lol still reminds me of the reason I picked Torque back up after dropping it a good 4-5 months, met a bunch of you at the GDC before this last one and realized how down to earth and respectfull you all were, even on the first time meeting you all... glad I picked it back up after that)

Sounds like your definately busy there lol... I can't imagine how you keep track of all the projects you do! Its insane lol... every time I talk with you or see you post about what you working on another thing is added to the list!


It seems the hardest part for my team and I is getting past that initial hump... we work on things, but getting the basics of a game up is a large step... I'm trying to be the driving force behind it, but its hard... on top of that we are all going to college classes (two of my team members returned back after being away from school for a bit) while we all work as well... so time is always a killer. Its hard trying to tell a friend and business associate that they really need to get more work done when they are already very stressed, time strapped, and worried about things... doing that in a way that won't cause them to snap (as well as yourself) seems to be a challenge also lol...

I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone else's struggles are as well, in T2D and in general with game development :)

#43 Now we all need to make some great games that are fun that will be picked up by GG that sell well so they can get some more money for themselves! Plus we'll then spread the word of T2D better and bring Melv in enough to support himself off of it alone :)

#44 Well, I can't narrow it down to one biggest struggle. The two places I'm struggling with currently are:

1) When to use the physics subsystem vs. "faking it". The physics stuff is great, but none of the 2D game ideas I want to emulate ever had real physics. I'm working on some basic AI flocking/herding code for background stuff, but all of the algorithms out there fake the physics and just position stuff where it looks right. That really eats up the CPU. I'm trying to take advantage of the collision system and impulse forces, but it requires completely redesigning and rewriting the algorithms.

2) Bouncing between the coordinate systems. Polar vs. rectilinear is fine until you toss in the multiple versions of zero degrees along with -1 to 1 ranges vs. camera min to camera max, etc. The hardest part for me is trying to remember what to pass where and what to expect back in callbacks. The concatenated string approach of array passing doesn't help, either :-) I'm hoping this will go away with use and with documentation.

Actually, the biggest struggle is waiting patiently for the next release :-)

#45 My major hassle/problem? Hmm. Let's see. Ideas.

Seriously. It's really hard to come up with something that is fun and playable. It usually requires a ton of experimentation. Sure, I've got a bazillion and one game ideas just like the rest of you, but maybe 1% of those ideas are actually doable with time/skill allotment and perhaps %0.1 out of that are actually enjoyable and fun to play. This is why I try to prototype games now. Doing a few GIDs have taught me the importance of getting a playable game together as fast as possible, to make sure that the core concept is workable.

Even before I was sold of this idea, my most successful games are ones that I just whipped up and then found myself playing a lot and enjoying. As the years go on, it's less about trial and error but there is still a significant portion of random experimentation involved.

Next, I'd say the other biggest problem I have is content. Now that I've got my fun, playable game -- It's time to finish it. Art, sound, game content and testing. Those eat up a lot of my time. But, as I've heard it said about game development: "You send 90% of your time working on the last %10 of a project."

EDIT: Argh, I wish every forum on the planet would get together and figure out if they are using HTML tags or BBCode-style tags. :)

#46 Well I bought the engine about a week ago and played with it for a bit. After figuring out that it was pretty darn powerful for getting something running in a very short time, and then finding that you could still mix C++ OO programming with the TorqueScript, that's all I needed to know to be able to do a game. It's the low-level library stuff that I've never been interested in that stops me ever coding a game - that's why I bought T2d as soon as I discovered it :)

So now, the biggest challenge is really Game Design - trying to come up with an idea, then working that idea into something cohesive and playable, and documented - not just the programming side, the design side too. Graphics should be ok I think, or at least I hope, but the game MUST be new and interesting. And then once you have the idea, the problem is fleshing it out to a full-fledged game. I'm working on the design document and it's tough going to actually spec everything out.

How do others go about this part of game development? Prototyping? Do you document anything first? Do you just go and build, and then tweak later? I'm concerned about complexity taking over because of the scripting paradigm so how do you manage it? By using lots of script files in various packages? By using more C++? These are the kinds of questions I'm struggling with at the moment.

#47 @Terry: Have you tried Melv's fxForce object? I've got some bee-like flocking results with it.


Biggest general problem I have with development has traditionally been the hamster issue. What's the hamster issue?

cathodetan.blogspot.com/2004/12/dev-night-diary-filling-out-framework.html

Humorously the project I refer to there is ... heheh, unfinished. But it's not my fault! It's currently trapped on a PC that has no working CPU. I'm hoping 2D projects will be more streamline and easier to bring to completion.

#48 @Josh

Impressive display. I bitch about bad searching and 4 hours later you guys have bought and installed a Google mini. Now THAT is customer support =) Now if I have another problem that I list here can it get taken care of by this afternoon? ;) ( j/k, of course).

@Documentation

I know this has been beaten to death, but I just can't stress how important this is to really making T2D great. From what I can tell so far, this is an amazing engine, but I don't know that for sure since I can't figure out how to make it do very many of those amazing things. And I'm not a newb too scripting or programming in general. Granted, the last time I touched C++ was back in college, but I work with scripting languages all day every day. The difference between my day job and messign with T2D, though, is that I have a couple reference books, easily searchable user forums that provide relevant results, and a large example code base with generalized but practical usage examples.

Part of this, I think, is an issue with the TGE docs as well though. The current format is horrible for finding anything, and considering the fact that both of these engines rely on using torquescript as the main interface to the game logic, I think there really needs to be some effort put into getting together a very comprehensive and well organized reference to it (and not a bunch of randomly ordered html pages that require you to click through multiple levels to try to find what you need.... a linked appendix would be great too ;)

I would even be willing to pay more for things like that. Call it a Torque Developer Network and Support (TDNS (tm)), and charge a yearly subscription fee, and then dump that money into keeping on a full time tech writer and support specialist. Some will complain, but to me, time saved through better resources and support would be worth some more cash, and those that don't need it just don't have to purchase it.

#49 @Barry
They've already beaten you to the punch basically. The Torque Developer Network is a wiki-like system and should be up and running fairly soon. It will be used pretty much so we the user's can write the documentation, as an insanely large number of us have offered to do this anyways. With the wiki-like system of TDN it will be possible for us to have concise documentation written in a way that makes it easy to find what you are looking for, all the while it remaining constantly up-to-date as people notice bugs, discrepancies, and fix them theirselves.

#50 TDN

It's a bit sparse now, but it'll flesh out once people have access to it.

#51 Barry, so yeah, we basically have the TDN thing ready to go here soon too. ;) Keep 'em coming dude, this is fun. :)

(To pre-handle any potential freak-outs: no worry at this point Barry's suggestion to pay for TDN. TDN will have a lot of free content, and we don't presently have any plans to do subscription stuff with it. Though, if people would find getting even more content a valuable proposition and would want to see a subscription plan set-up to help afford getting extra content done, that might be worthwhile exploring. Whether we do an add-on subscription thing for extra content or not, TDN will have a whole slew of free stuff. We need basic free docs to come with our products, and TDN will host these now.)

#52 Well, shoot, since they're just rolling out my suggestions as I post em... how about that T2D update today? The one that has the nice little getPolarVelocity(); function in it, as well as the packaging tool ;)

#53 LOL Barry!

(hurriedly eats 12 cream sconces)

(stomach grumbles forebodingly...)

Um, do we still get partial sconce credit...

(swallows hard... more rumbling...)

...if they don't stay down?

#54 My biggest problem? Getting the Z-ordering in my rts to work. Layers aren't as easy as they appear...

#55 The two major challenges I'm hitting today are

1) lack of sleep... I know Josh and Melv know this one far too well... you both deserve a month break for all the work you guys are doing!

2) To many cool things in T2D... I'm still trying to find a way to work on all aspects at once... lol, if someone figures that out please tell me... T2D is just too awesome... theres so many things to do with it... keeping myself on one thing is so hard lol... then whne I do I can't help but do a long tutorial about it to share how exciting it is... I have waited for T2D for about 5-6 months (give or take) before it came out... know others waited even longer... and just wanted to say, Melv and Josh, it came out to even more than my expectations lol... never thought that making a game could be this fun!

I know a lot of people are behind me when I thank you both for the opportunity to use this technology, thank you for all your hard work and for deciding to release it in EA... it has amazingly little flaws in it... a few minor bugs if that, in EA... lol... just wow!

Well today when exploring what I wanted to extend the C++ side (plan on creating a tutorial to help others realize how easy it is to bring the C++ side and torquescript together) It took so long to finally decide on a thing... not because its hard or troubling, but because there were so many ways I could go... so many things to do, all within the scale of my goal too... in fact I even stepped it up more than I thought I would... just wanted to say thanks :) When my teams game is done (I have no doubt it will) I just hope it can help bring more attention to T2D...

I know the word is spreading though... somoene (I've talked with on occasion) at my college ran accross me in the hallway and asked if I knew about T2D... lol I just grinned :) People are getting excited... and though I know you two are so very modest and humble about T2D being in its early stages... I still strongly beleive a game of commercial/publishing quality can be acheived, even at this early of a stage! In fact I plan to prove it lol :)

Todays Challenge... too many awesome things that can be done in T2D... not used to having this many great options lol

#56 I concur, Matthew!:) Great stuff your're doing here!:)

#57 @Josh: you said,

Quote:Anyway, I'd be really interested in hearing, in particular, what challenges people face when learning T2D, and what new challenges are coming up after you get past that initial hump of learning the basics of the engine and how to get things on screen.

Well, you asked! Other than the already known bumps in the tutorial, that was all it took to get off the ground. Images on the screen, movement, man! a whole little mini-game (almost). I learn from reading documentation, so there is that well known bump as well. But the available documentation helps, experimentation works, and answers on the forum are forthcoming.

More specifically? There are some errors in the available documentation (found a typo in some TorqueScript docs just this morning). Minor stuff, I know. I'd say the biggest hurdle to getting something out of T2D was picking up TorqueScript and TorqueScript specific debugging:

the console (it may be old hat to game developers, but new to me)
variable scoping (I assumed correctly from the get-go, but I prefer knowing to assuming)
the .dump() command
path root/home (where is ~, /dir and dir/)
separation of .dso and saved files from the code (~/.garagegames/torquedemo)
camera operation (camera limit, camera mounting, very cool stuff)

Currently my biggest effort is carefully constructing the core classes for a game, making sure that they interact properly, etc. Basically, code/logic stuff that isn't really T2D specific at all.

Other than that, I'm still not convinced I have a proper understanding of datablocks and so may not be using TorqueScript most effectively. It isn't stopping me from developing (far from it!) but I find myself wondering what the heck they do you don't get with classes. (I've read several descriptions and explanations, I'm not asking for one here -- if I were to ask I'd open a new thread in the appropriate forum).

#58 Here's a big problem I've been having lately - trying to conform a console style RPG to one-button mouse-only controls! I have thus spent 3 days working ONLY on that problem ;)

I think I *finally* have a solution, but I'll probably spend the rest of the day thinking and testing it before I decide for sure.

Really, all my big problems have been based on my game code stuff, and not T2D. I think we've finally acheived the ultimate game engine goal that has been known but unnreachable for so many, many game engines - work on the game, not the engine :)

#59 On the Getting Started Thread, a few of us found ourselves in a dicusssion about building a repository of standards-based code templates and bare-bones design documents that those of us who are able to contribute can and those who are having problems with T2D can retrieve from, either completely free of charge or for a small fee depending on the costs and the effort involved. It will in all likely-hood be free of charge , hopefully!:) I am currently talking such things over with GG. Hope things work out!:)

Any further ideas?

#60 (sorry for the lack of comments today, forcing myself to take a break)...

My challenge today: slept a lot longer than usual (guess I needed it) and I have a splitting headache, so forcing myself to relax today.