Forum Decorum :)

#1 It's hard to see with so many new names around here, but there is a core set of highly experienced people in the GG community that literally have been around for years, and have proven success using TAP products to make indy games. I'm in no way trying to suggest that any one member, or group of members in the community should be treated any differently, but I do want to point out that with the exception of Josh and Melv, each and every member of the T2D community, and the GG community as a whole spends time here on the forums completely of their own free will--and they have absolutely no motivation to share their levels of experience except for the enjoyment they receive from helping others. In fact, for many of them, spending time on the forums answering questions actually detracts from their commercial success, because they spend valuable time here that they could (and probably should!) be spending making games.

What I'm getting at is that it is in the best interest of all of us to keep the interest and motivations of each and every poster--from the brand new T2D owner who has never made a game before, to the people that have written large portions of the engine (and not just Josh and Melv, there are lurkers and part-time posters here that have written significant portions of TAP along the way)--as high as possible. It's actually our responsibility to make (or at least allow) them to have fun and gain enjoyment from helping us all out.

I'm not talking about being obsequious here, and I'm not talking about trying to butter up people to give them warm fuzzies, but there are a couple of general principles that make their lives easier, and keep them from avoiding the forums like the plague--which, unfortunately, has happened to a large segment of the very highly experienced TAP owners.

I'm not going to pretend to be the penultimate poster or anything, but there are a couple of good .plans that have come out over the last 6 months that describe the concepts I'm talking about...some, like Ben Garney's .plan from late December (check out the link he includes as well, it's probably the defacto standard on "How to get your questions answered on the Internet"), as well as an anyonymous member's light hearted but extremely accurate .plan about how to post (and how not to post!) may help to illustrate what I'm trying to describe.

Moral of the SoapBox: We are all here (and active on the forums) because we are interested in being successful using TAP. Each and every one of us, regardless of experience or knowledge, has an amazing amount to give to the community. It's important though to make sure that in our participation, we don't "turn off" those that can help us, and actually make them enjoy giving that help.

Sorry for the preach session, but I am one of the most devout believers in GG and how they do business for us there is, and I'm very focused on making sure the community stays the best it can be!

[/soapbox]

#2 This community is very high quality, compared to some of the other forums I've been on. I could quote stuff from them, but it's best to keep that particular version of hell inside its pentagram.

The great thing about the GG forums is that most(or so I believe) of the people here bought, at some time, a GG product or some other relatively expensive game dev tool. Those people are obviously responsible, and thus, spend time with their posts and whatnot.

If you go to some place like the GameMaker forums, you'll see the contrast, and you'll never complain about the GG forums again. Trust me.

#3 Well I have to admit that i'm probably partially at fault here. As of late i've been tending to get extremely upset with the tone and sometimes content of some posts. So much so that i've sort of withdrawn :( I used to be a very active poster (as you can see from my profile) but not so as of late. I've also probably been snipppy with people when I really shouldn't have been.

Its just damn frustrating at times when it seems people wan't me to write thier freakin game for them :p

#4

Quote:
Its just damn frustrating at times when it seems people wan't me to write thier freakin game for them :p

Coming from the other side, I try to think very thoroughly about what I'm going to ask because I don't want to come across as wanting someone else to write my game. But sometimes I'm just too stinkin lame at coding and I end up asking a question that most people already know the answer to and assume everyone else does too or because of my lack of coding experience I'm going about a problem the wrong way using the wrong technique or I misunderstand documentation. So please forgive me if I come across sounding like I'm trying to get you to give me your code. I'm actually just stupid but I'm trying not to be :)

I really do appreciate the help from everyone... even if I end up feeling like a doofus when I finally understand :P

#5 I'd also like to apologize for my total lack of discretion and careful decision making. Won't happen again-that's a promise!:)

Time to move on to a better future with GG!:)

Gabor

#6 Gabor, I honestly don't ever remember reading a post from you that I thought was offensive.

#7 Thank you kindly Charlie, but indirectly at least I think I am partially at fault here. It,s a bad habit on my part just to rush into the forums(and other conversations elsewhere)without giving much thought to the consequences.

I still think everybody's really great here, let's not spoil it anymore, especially for the sake of Josh and Melv who have tried so hard to make T2D such a great success!:)

Gabor

#8 As an after the fact comment on my own post, I don't think that anyone has ever posted any content that wasn't appropriate at all. As many have said, it's always good to present a possible "missing functionality" or "downright bug", even if it is possible that the concept under immediate discussion is (or could be) well known.

The breakdown for the most part (both currently, and historically) is that people tend to present bugs, issues, or feature enhancements from a very personal perspective, without regard to how those discussions may be received.

If you look at it from the receiver's perspective, it should become quite clear that as soon as you start throwing out phrases like "this has to be fixed", "this is wrong", "you did this the wrong way"--directly due to word choice, or even indirectly due to contextual/phrasal clues, the recipient of the message is going to be put on the defensive...and if your true intent is to receive a positive response of some sort that helps you resolve your own personal issue(s), then putting those that may help to resolve those issues on a negative position due to simply reading your post probably isn't the best strategy!

#9 @Robert: care to explain what you mean by this? Because I'm not seeing your point here.

#10 Hum from what I have seen GG staff throw WWW smackdown on people that cross the line. Just at that guy that attacked on of the recent packs. Hhaha (humor post)

#11 I hate posting in these kinds of threads, mainly cos I'm worried my views will be seen as offensive to some people. When I make a post, I do actually care about whether or not it will offend the intended audience, but at the same time sometimes things just have to be said. I haven't had the need to do so here, but if I ever find a problem that I can reproduce, I will explain it as concisely as possible and request it be fixed. No amount of candying words will change the objective situation, and any negative emotional response would be unintended on my behalf, and unhelpful to the community in general. It is my humble opinion tha when someone tdiscovers a problem with some work you have done and tells you about it, they have done you a service (you would rather the problem came to your attention sooner, i.e. while T2D is in EA, rather than later), and it is best to thank them, let them know it will be seen to in due time, and move on as quickly as possible. If they're wrong and its not a problem,
explain how they're causing the problem. Even if they've been as rude as a motherf*&ker can get, let it slide. Your karma will thank you for it (yes I'm an eHippie), and besides, other people will see that you have the maturity to face a barrage of insulting behavior and still remain rational, you look like the shining prince in armour while the other guy looks like a tantrum-chucking-2 year old.

I'm sorry to be an emotionless robot, but if something needs to be said, I say it. If someone has something to say to me, I want them to cut to the chase. Having to append "You guys are doing a great job, however... " to every post is a hollow and meaningless gesture, since we ALL KNOW you guys are doing a GREAT JOB!!! No need to keep saying it, its a given truth! At least speaking for myself it is, so if any of my posts sounds disrespectful at any time please let me know.

By the way, I think everyone should act the same way as me, that way we'll all get on just fine. :) JK

#12 @Alex: You are correct man, you can go overboard in the "polite" direction as well--and in some cases that's just as bad.

#13 I am one of the people that have been so disappointed in the content of these T2D forums that I have decided to no longer post in the GG forums. I simply cannot take it any more. The entire EULA thing, the sense of increased entitlement that new members have, and the lack of respect for the experienced people that the hold the community together have caused me to withdraw. You may argue that I cam "cutting off my nose to spite my face", but I just can't take it any more. I feel like a soldier that has been on the front lines for too long.

About a week ago I unsubscribed to all but the General and Business forums, but tonight, I just allowed myself a little peek. I see that a couple of people are now turnign their screaming down a little, but there is still an underlying feeling that people are always looking for GG to stumble or looking for the other shoe to drop.

Luckily, GG has some great people that will continue to keep up our presence in the forums. Cya all in a .plan once in a while. I have a lot of GG tasks that are way more important than posting here in the forums.

#14 Garage Games sacrifices a lot to provide Indies with the technology to make high quality games...

I have so much respect for them because of that... many thanks to all of GG. Hope the tides turn... I know many of us are here to ensure that they do.

#15 I'm sad that Jeff feels that way but I can understand it. I personally miss people like Mark and Tim posting on the forums but also welcome Josh/Ben and others who do.

I think that GG can post as many "team messages" as they want. They could insist that people have a GG statement tattooed on peoples forearms and it wouldn't make any difference. Please read the following and click here ... *click*.

It's just human nature. Give somebody something fantastic and ask practically nothing in return and they'll be initially happy. If their imagination/skill/brain doesn't allow them to do anything new or creative then it soon becomes GGs job to produce more 'something' so that it can enable them to succeed in their goals. Give them that and repeat the cycle. In the meantime, people like Jeff who fully understand what a fantastic deal is being provided (and has sacrificed an awful lot) has to witness this day in and day out for years. In my books, Jeff has earned the right to make statements such as this and react however he damn well likes!

Not understanding the benefit that the TGE platform provides is hardly GGs fault.

Here's the kind of junk that people post to hide the fact that they don't have the skills necessary to do anything useful with the TGE...

- I can't do X because I don't have every function-call listed in a particular document type that I like. I want PDF. I want HTML. I want CHM.
- I don't understand second-grade math. Someone must write some basic linear algebra routines for me. It's stopping me writing my game!
- When can we have pixel-shaders? I need them to make my crappy demo look something remotely like a game.
- Now that pixel-shaders are available, you're telling me I have to pay for them? How's that work?
- GG need to spend more time doing documentation rather than earning money from the engine and sitting on a beach everyday. Help?????
- Why do I have to pay hundreds of $ for a commercial licence? I'm not able to actually read the EULA because that would be too professional.
- I can't find how to do X. The searching is crappy. GG change the search and do it quickly. This is stopping me writing my game!!
- Don't raise the price of the engine to a realistic level to pay for the costs of the hardware for searching or employing people to writing documentation. Use dark magic.
- I want to write a MMORPG. How do I edit a text file? Can somebody please tie my shoe-laces, I keep tripping up. GG help!
- I don't want to complain but when will GG come around my house and write my game.
- I want to purchase a book to help me understand programming so I can write my game which a fusion of Half-Life 2/Sims/Frogger. It's called HalfSim-Frog.
- *bump* Will someone please help me with my shoe-laces already?
- Where did all the GG employees go from these forums? Anyway; I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want...
- I know you can't say when XXX will be finished but .... do you have any idea when XXX will be finished?
- I know that the TGE is a great deal but can you make it a greater deal? Please do this before I finish school today.
- My goldfish died today. Is there any chance that you could get terrain paging working to cheer me up?
- The TGE demo is running really slowly for me; help! I cannot post any further detail because that would make it too easy for you to help me.

... and then after all that crap, somebody comes along and asks a simple and honest question and unfortunately, there's a chance that it'll get responded to as if it was part of the above. You cannot tell peoples age, skills or even what they look like as most people don't fill-in their profiles.

All the above though is unfair to the hoards of talented people who are on the forums and do produce some great stuff and gladly help others. I just don't know how to classify the 'element' that causes the problem. Young? Inexperienced? Stupid? Bored? Impatient? Arrogant? Human?

- Melv.

#16 The way I handle massive forums like this is by reading like one or two topics a day, and maybe answering a question (not in this one, not yet xD). I don't know the situation on the entire GG board, mainly because I couldn't care less about..say, three fourths of the huge amount of forums you guys have here.

I still respect the experienced people on forums, because, well, they're experienced and I'm not. I'm happy to have found a tool that allows easy creation of complicated 2d games for less than the MSVC++ compiler costs, so I'm not going to start complaining for a while.

#17 Just a question - what exactly is the problem, where is all the yelling and screaming? Have I missed something? These forums seem pretty informative and generally laid back to me.

#18

Quote:
I just don't know how to classify the 'element' that causes the problem. Young? Inexperienced? Stupid? Bored? Impatient? Arrogant? Human?

It's my belief that the problem is caused mostly by the nature of the media, and not the nature of the individual, with a few notable exceptions :-)

A post is a one-way communication that can't be interrupted, so an incorrect initial premise goes uncorrected for the duration of the message.

People not having issues are more likely to be using the product than questioning/complaining/commenting about it, so the unhappy/happy ratio trends downward over time.

The lack of intonation, facial expression and "body english" remove intent from the message, and people have a strong bias toward negative intent when none is present.

The detachment from physical interaction (e.g. getting one's butt kicked) tends to amplify the problem in people with real social interaction issues. Pain is a very effective editor :-)


My wife has run a FREE industry forum of roughly 5000 professionals for many years, and a small handful of people still constantly complain that they aren't getting their money's worth. That's why I almost have this speech memorized :-)

Divide the negative by 10, multiply the positive by 20, and have faith that Darwin got it right and wait for natural selection to kick in :-)

#19 Well it's been my experiance that anytime you deal with a lot of programmers they have "unique" personalities. But most big internet forums do have conflicts. I think it's a sign of a healthy forum to have a little "fight" in it. Just need some tough moderation at times. It's like the cleaning bathroom part of a software development shop lol.

#20 Without trying to stir up the muck or start my own flame war in this thread, I think the real problems here are:

1. People don't understand or respect the meaning of "early adopter." I work in the software business and this is one hell of a deal for an "EA".

2. You've lowered the bar significantly. T2D is "seemingly" approachable to everyone. However, a big part of the crowd that you are selling to are the same individuals that buy books like "Games with Zero Code in Five Minutes!" It always amazes me how many books like that exist. Because you've lowered the bar, people buying this product are often likely to not be developers. Once you leave the realm of developers, all assumptions about what an "SDK" are or how self-sufficient people are changes.

3. Inadequate documentation or handholding that's written down for people in the category above causes a lot of "noise," be it whining, complaining, or any of the other great points that Melv makes. Many of the "I need feature X" where X is some technology buzzword is asked for because people what to say "I'm working on a kick-ass game with X" where X the "game" is pong, at best. I'm not suggesting the documentation is inadequate for me, just for the non-developer.

To be blunt, both to Jeff and others, I'm surprised you are surprised at these forums. This is exactly what I'd expect. It's likely to get worse not better as you are more successful, because you will continue to attract people outside of your original, core market: developers.

I think the easiest way to alieviate the "pain," is what I suggested on day one of buying T2D (which I still love and enjoy): get TDN going! Forums are a desert made of manure with diamonds sprinkled in. Wikis, when appropriately trimmed and groomed by the community are significantly more helpful and quiet a lot of noise. I know that Ben's working hard on this and I'm eager to see this come alive. A combination of T2D 1.02 + TDN + community help to flesh out lots of "docs" & examples will turn this community on it's head. I look forward to the future here.