The disconnect between concept and implementation
by John Pritchett · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 03/29/2005 (2:45 pm) · 16 replies
Here's my conundrum: If every programmer has a long list of concepts they want to implement, how can a designer find a programmer to implement his concept? My experience has always been, when looking for others to collaborate with, they are only looking for someone to collaborate on THEIR OWN ideas. It's frustrating. How does one go about pulling a team together around his or her own idea?
It seems as though the only option is to implement your idea alone. Once you have the basics implemented, then you can start to attract others to flesh out the design.
I've often compared game design to writing a book. With books, any author with a good idea can write it down, and the worthless work gets ignored and the quality work rises to the top. With games, there is a similar dynamic, only in order to "write your book", you first have to learn a new language, develop the printing press, master binding, basically handle all phases of creation of the PRODUCT, rather than focusing on the formulation of the IDEA. I know that's exactly what GarageGames and the indie community is about, and we're getting ever closer to an industry that favors good ideas over good implementation, but we're not there yet. It seems to me that there is not yet such a thing as a "game writer", as a separate entity from a game programmer.
In every other creative medium, the ideas are fed into an existing production pipeline. This pipeline is established, and what's needed is a constant flow of fresh, quality ideas to feed it. This is not the case with computer games. In the game industry, one must create the production pipeline before an idea can become a reality. And then once the pipeline is complete, the ideas that feed it come almost exclusively from those who created the pipeline.
I've only been here a few days, but I get the sense that the Game Ideas forum is obsolete. There are plenty of ideas being posted, but nobody is looking for ideas. As the forum heading says, ideas are cheap so why is there nothing original being done? I think the answer is because concepts don't exist apart from implementation. Those with the skills to implement are not interested in anyone else's concepts. Modify that. They're primarily interested in concepts that are derivative of proven, previously implemented ideas. And that's even worse.
Is there such a thing as a great idea in search of a development team? Or are there only teams in search of new members? Am I wasting my time trying to find people interested in collaborating with me on one of my designs? It just seems like the attitude is that no design is as good as one's own design.
My dream for the game industry is that, one day, it will take on a form similar to the movie industry. Publishers will have all of the infrastructure necessary to develop a game, writers will develop concepts, producers will take those concepts and pull them together into a project, directors will assure that one vision prevails throughout the project, on down the line. I've always seen myself as a writer/director of computer games, but that's not a role that has yet emerged. So I continue to work as a lone-wolf indie developer completely limited in the scope of project I can undertake. The vast majority of my concepts are beyond my ability to complete alone (to my satisfaction), and the only opportunities I can find involve the implementation of someone else's game. It's a catch-22.
Any thoughts? Advice?
It seems as though the only option is to implement your idea alone. Once you have the basics implemented, then you can start to attract others to flesh out the design.
I've often compared game design to writing a book. With books, any author with a good idea can write it down, and the worthless work gets ignored and the quality work rises to the top. With games, there is a similar dynamic, only in order to "write your book", you first have to learn a new language, develop the printing press, master binding, basically handle all phases of creation of the PRODUCT, rather than focusing on the formulation of the IDEA. I know that's exactly what GarageGames and the indie community is about, and we're getting ever closer to an industry that favors good ideas over good implementation, but we're not there yet. It seems to me that there is not yet such a thing as a "game writer", as a separate entity from a game programmer.
In every other creative medium, the ideas are fed into an existing production pipeline. This pipeline is established, and what's needed is a constant flow of fresh, quality ideas to feed it. This is not the case with computer games. In the game industry, one must create the production pipeline before an idea can become a reality. And then once the pipeline is complete, the ideas that feed it come almost exclusively from those who created the pipeline.
I've only been here a few days, but I get the sense that the Game Ideas forum is obsolete. There are plenty of ideas being posted, but nobody is looking for ideas. As the forum heading says, ideas are cheap so why is there nothing original being done? I think the answer is because concepts don't exist apart from implementation. Those with the skills to implement are not interested in anyone else's concepts. Modify that. They're primarily interested in concepts that are derivative of proven, previously implemented ideas. And that's even worse.
Is there such a thing as a great idea in search of a development team? Or are there only teams in search of new members? Am I wasting my time trying to find people interested in collaborating with me on one of my designs? It just seems like the attitude is that no design is as good as one's own design.
My dream for the game industry is that, one day, it will take on a form similar to the movie industry. Publishers will have all of the infrastructure necessary to develop a game, writers will develop concepts, producers will take those concepts and pull them together into a project, directors will assure that one vision prevails throughout the project, on down the line. I've always seen myself as a writer/director of computer games, but that's not a role that has yet emerged. So I continue to work as a lone-wolf indie developer completely limited in the scope of project I can undertake. The vast majority of my concepts are beyond my ability to complete alone (to my satisfaction), and the only opportunities I can find involve the implementation of someone else's game. It's a catch-22.
Any thoughts? Advice?
About the author
Indie developer since 1994, games include TradeWars 2002 (named 10th best PC game of all time by PCWorld magazine), TW: Dark Millennium/Exarch/Dungeon Runners, and Rocketbowl 360. Have worked for Martech Software, 21-6, EIS and Black Squirrel Studios.
#2
1) Many, many posters here come in with an idea that is either:
a) rediculous
b) neat, but not worth working on
c) really really interesting, has potential, but isn't worth the risk/time for independent developers.
2) A lot of low experience posters come charging in with an idea, try to build a team, and then find out quickly how hard it is, and give up. Coders/artists/other team members that may have been a part of something like that fall into the "once bitten, twice shy" mode, and tend to pretty much ignore new ideas until they show serious promise and committment. For the experienced dev's, they know what it takes to build and keep a team committed, and tend to shy away from new ones as well.
3) Most people come to Torque with a game they want to make. It's very, very hard for anyone to give up the control and work on someone else's game.
All that being said, your best bet if you are serious about attracting quality team members is to do your best to get some form of a demo/prototype of your idea together. Based on the performance of so many in the private T2D forums, especially those that either have had no luck getting much done in TGE (3D), and/or no actual development experience at all, my personal suggestion is that if your idea can be demoed at all in 2D, buy T2D, sit down and run the tutorials, and give a strong go at making a demo yourself. T2D really does seem to be that easy--artists, those that may have given up on TGE in the past, and even those brand new to game development are succeeding left and right with it.
03/29/2005 (3:33 pm)
Quite honestly, the main issue here is 3 fold:1) Many, many posters here come in with an idea that is either:
a) rediculous
b) neat, but not worth working on
c) really really interesting, has potential, but isn't worth the risk/time for independent developers.
2) A lot of low experience posters come charging in with an idea, try to build a team, and then find out quickly how hard it is, and give up. Coders/artists/other team members that may have been a part of something like that fall into the "once bitten, twice shy" mode, and tend to pretty much ignore new ideas until they show serious promise and committment. For the experienced dev's, they know what it takes to build and keep a team committed, and tend to shy away from new ones as well.
3) Most people come to Torque with a game they want to make. It's very, very hard for anyone to give up the control and work on someone else's game.
All that being said, your best bet if you are serious about attracting quality team members is to do your best to get some form of a demo/prototype of your idea together. Based on the performance of so many in the private T2D forums, especially those that either have had no luck getting much done in TGE (3D), and/or no actual development experience at all, my personal suggestion is that if your idea can be demoed at all in 2D, buy T2D, sit down and run the tutorials, and give a strong go at making a demo yourself. T2D really does seem to be that easy--artists, those that may have given up on TGE in the past, and even those brand new to game development are succeeding left and right with it.
#3
The biggest problem that you (and I mean "you" as a very generic term for anyone seeking a team to help develop a game, not you specifically) face is that, on the surface, you don't have any idea more grand than anyone else's. Unless you already have a solid proof of concept that inspires people with your vision, or a proven track record, there's very little to set you apart from the hundreds of wannabes who make minimal effort in an attempt to get other people to build their dream game for them. If you are different from that bunch, you have to prove it.
Here are a few ideas that have worked or may work:
#1 - Offer them $$$. Nothing says, "I'm serious" like offering real, hard cash in exchange for services. If you are a fairly new developer without a track record of finishing and selling games, don't even THINK about offering a "portion of the profits from the sales of the game." The only people who will be interested in something like that are the chumps too green to know that 99% of these projects never see completion.
#2 - Be willing to share. Find another talented individual with a somewhat similar vision. Be willing to compromise, and share the vision and design with your partner.
#3 - Find a partner (or multiple partners), and work out some kind of arrangement to 'swap' services with each other on each other's projects. I've actually done this in practice, and it rocks. It's a lot cheaper than exchanging money for all parties - and you don't have to worry about taxes and so forth. World Domination Through Collaboration!
#4 - Do whatever it takes to create a proof of concept. Learn Programming. Buy Content or learn to roll your own. Your objective is to create a demo &/or screenshots that will attract interested parties to your project and attract them to your vision. This and the money option are the only ways I can think of right now to attract a team via a "cattle call" with any kind of success.
#5 - Work for other people to help them with THEIR games. Not only may you pick up skills for use in your own project, but you may also gain a reputation, and most importantly gain contacts. Use those contacts when it comes time to work on your own project.
Hope these ideas help!
03/29/2005 (3:41 pm)
You aren't wrong. I think the same is true of many artists, modelers, and other content-creators... they all want people to help THEM make THEIR Vision, and are less excited to jump in to help someone else.The biggest problem that you (and I mean "you" as a very generic term for anyone seeking a team to help develop a game, not you specifically) face is that, on the surface, you don't have any idea more grand than anyone else's. Unless you already have a solid proof of concept that inspires people with your vision, or a proven track record, there's very little to set you apart from the hundreds of wannabes who make minimal effort in an attempt to get other people to build their dream game for them. If you are different from that bunch, you have to prove it.
Here are a few ideas that have worked or may work:
#1 - Offer them $$$. Nothing says, "I'm serious" like offering real, hard cash in exchange for services. If you are a fairly new developer without a track record of finishing and selling games, don't even THINK about offering a "portion of the profits from the sales of the game." The only people who will be interested in something like that are the chumps too green to know that 99% of these projects never see completion.
#2 - Be willing to share. Find another talented individual with a somewhat similar vision. Be willing to compromise, and share the vision and design with your partner.
#3 - Find a partner (or multiple partners), and work out some kind of arrangement to 'swap' services with each other on each other's projects. I've actually done this in practice, and it rocks. It's a lot cheaper than exchanging money for all parties - and you don't have to worry about taxes and so forth. World Domination Through Collaboration!
#4 - Do whatever it takes to create a proof of concept. Learn Programming. Buy Content or learn to roll your own. Your objective is to create a demo &/or screenshots that will attract interested parties to your project and attract them to your vision. This and the money option are the only ways I can think of right now to attract a team via a "cattle call" with any kind of success.
#5 - Work for other people to help them with THEIR games. Not only may you pick up skills for use in your own project, but you may also gain a reputation, and most importantly gain contacts. Use those contacts when it comes time to work on your own project.
Hope these ideas help!
#4
I know for me, I have many years experience (25+) in table-top game's, from playing, modding, creation and implementation. Compound that with my 8 years experience of QA testing on most of the top MMO's released in the last, well, 8 years...and I don't mean I've just been involved with open beta testing, I have been on many alpha teams from AC 1, to Ultimate Baseball Online, not to mention I am a member of Activsions test team the Visioneers. Now couple that with a few online courses I've taken in Game Design and I actaully put together a fairly nice resume with out any actual real development experience. But, since I am not a programmer, artist, scripter, producer or anything but really just a tester, no one would take me serious if I tried to form a team, regardless if they like my concept or not.
I think your right John, there needs to be some sort of "pipeline" or something for those like me who live in Ohio (or any where), which seems to be the furthest away from any development house. :)
Anyway, sorry for the "I'm so down on myself" rantish thing, or whatever I said.
Take care,
03/29/2005 (6:53 pm)
I think it all comes down to experience actually...if you've been around and have a proven record as a team member and have a few projects under your belt, then sure, people will jump no your idea and go with it. But the catch 22 of that is, if you've got all this experience and have built up quite a nice resume, then why would you be looking to form a non-profit team when you can most likely find a position with a dev house already in the industry.I know for me, I have many years experience (25+) in table-top game's, from playing, modding, creation and implementation. Compound that with my 8 years experience of QA testing on most of the top MMO's released in the last, well, 8 years...and I don't mean I've just been involved with open beta testing, I have been on many alpha teams from AC 1, to Ultimate Baseball Online, not to mention I am a member of Activsions test team the Visioneers. Now couple that with a few online courses I've taken in Game Design and I actaully put together a fairly nice resume with out any actual real development experience. But, since I am not a programmer, artist, scripter, producer or anything but really just a tester, no one would take me serious if I tried to form a team, regardless if they like my concept or not.
I think your right John, there needs to be some sort of "pipeline" or something for those like me who live in Ohio (or any where), which seems to be the furthest away from any development house. :)
Anyway, sorry for the "I'm so down on myself" rantish thing, or whatever I said.
Take care,
#5
For me personally, it's because from 1996 to 2004, I lived in a small town in Nebraska. I've recently moved to Kansas City, but I haven't found any decent game developers in the area yet, so I'm not much better off. With the exception of 2001-2002 when I lived apart from my wife to work with Realm Interactive in Phoenix on a MMORPG called Exarch, I've pretty much worked alone on projects that I can complete without the assistance of others.
I'm committed to small indie projects, either solo or with a small team, both because of location and because I was not satisfied with my experience "in the industry".
Anyway, thanks everyone for the input. I'm going to just keep poking around here for awhile and try to make some connections and we'll see what happens.
03/29/2005 (7:05 pm)
"I think it all comes down to experience actually...if you've been around and have a proven record as a team member and have a few projects under your belt, then sure, people will jump no your idea and go with it. But the catch 22 of that is, if you've got all this experience and have built up quite a nice resume, then why would you be looking to form a non-profit team when you can most likely find a position with a dev house already in the industry."For me personally, it's because from 1996 to 2004, I lived in a small town in Nebraska. I've recently moved to Kansas City, but I haven't found any decent game developers in the area yet, so I'm not much better off. With the exception of 2001-2002 when I lived apart from my wife to work with Realm Interactive in Phoenix on a MMORPG called Exarch, I've pretty much worked alone on projects that I can complete without the assistance of others.
I'm committed to small indie projects, either solo or with a small team, both because of location and because I was not satisfied with my experience "in the industry".
Anyway, thanks everyone for the input. I'm going to just keep poking around here for awhile and try to make some connections and we'll see what happens.
#6
a) Available when you are looking for them.
b) Actually see your post for help wanted.
c) Actually want to take a chance with you (like Stephen Zepp said above).
The people are around on GG to make some great games reality. It seems that the hard part is organization. Every game could use an organizer. The problem is every extra person you have has to be paid. In the end for those of us who want to do this for a living, money eventually becomes a factor.
03/29/2005 (7:07 pm)
I think your are also forgetting the luck factor (I am not superstitious but still). You just have to hope the other team mebers you are looking for are:a) Available when you are looking for them.
b) Actually see your post for help wanted.
c) Actually want to take a chance with you (like Stephen Zepp said above).
The people are around on GG to make some great games reality. It seems that the hard part is organization. Every game could use an organizer. The problem is every extra person you have has to be paid. In the end for those of us who want to do this for a living, money eventually becomes a factor.
#7
03/29/2005 (7:28 pm)
Game in a Day <-- one of the best place to find like minded and capable people in this community
#8
Go Indie!
03/29/2005 (7:54 pm)
Quote:But the catch 22 of that is, if you've got all this experience and have built up quite a nice resume, then why would you be looking to form a non-profit team when you can most likely find a position with a dev house already in the industry.Actually, an awful lot of us have graduated from "the industry" and are now full-fledged indies. I'm not looking for a demotion back down to corporate cog for a big publisher anytime soon. Been there, done that, got a hell of a lot of T-Shirts.
Go Indie!
#9
03/29/2005 (8:13 pm)
@John: just a suspicion, but hang out a bit, get to know the community, and I have a feeling you'll do well putting together a small team as you progress in experience with TAP...just my gut talking!
#10
As you suggested (Stephen), it took me about 10 seconds to snap up Torque 2D (about as long as it took me to grab Torque back in 2002 when I first discovered it). I'm actually a very seasoned programmer, and though I'm more comfortable being a guru than a newbie, I know it's just a matter of time and effort before I'll be as comfortable using it as anything I use. Just gotta buckle down and get over the learning hump. And that'll break down a lot of barriers for me. I really prefer not "needing" anyone else to help me with a project anyway. But that said, I just have this sense that I could do so much more working with a team, you know?
03/29/2005 (8:22 pm)
Yeah, I know I probably seem a bit impatient. I'm really not. It's just the first thing I noticed when I starting looking around was everyone is working on something. As you suggested (Stephen), it took me about 10 seconds to snap up Torque 2D (about as long as it took me to grab Torque back in 2002 when I first discovered it). I'm actually a very seasoned programmer, and though I'm more comfortable being a guru than a newbie, I know it's just a matter of time and effort before I'll be as comfortable using it as anything I use. Just gotta buckle down and get over the learning hump. And that'll break down a lot of barriers for me. I really prefer not "needing" anyone else to help me with a project anyway. But that said, I just have this sense that I could do so much more working with a team, you know?
#11
So, if one posts an idea for a GID, is it possible to get involved with someone on a GID project, or do you pretty much need to do it yourself?
Yeah, I just need to get T2D down and do it myself, I'm sure. But a big part of what I want to do right now is just make some connections, work with some people.
03/29/2005 (8:31 pm)
"Game in a Day <-- one of the best place to find like minded and capable people in this community"So, if one posts an idea for a GID, is it possible to get involved with someone on a GID project, or do you pretty much need to do it yourself?
Yeah, I just need to get T2D down and do it myself, I'm sure. But a big part of what I want to do right now is just make some connections, work with some people.
#12
I would love to work with creative people with great ideas, but I would not want to join a team where the team leader is 16 and has 22 years less life experience and 8 years less game industry than I have. This is not to paint you specifically as a 'newb', but it does unfortunately describe a large majority of the 'idea' people that are trying to assemble a team, and why it can be difficult to assemble a team here from experienced devs..
If they could successfully lead a team, I would not mind working for them, but they have to prove themselves first. Some here on the forums, like Jay, and Jeremy Aleessi, Matt Fairfax, Tom Bampton, etc.. have proven themselves to be competent capable developers (and some have shipped products) and other realtive newcomers have made an impact with thier focus, drive and organization skills (Joshua Dallman pops right into my head here)..
Finding the right people to work with is a matter of getting to know who is who and who would be good to work with. As you have experience, it should not be too hard to find people that want to work with you, but you have to demonstrate why it is to theri benefit to do so, and just start hanging out so people can learn about you.
Speaking personally, I have a bunch of game ideas.. games that I want to work on. There is nothing that says that my ideas are better or worse than anyone else's, but my feeling is that a lot of the 'game' is in the implementation, and the person with the idea has to demonstrate that they can lead the team from the idea to the finished product, and make all the hard calls along the way during the implementation phase.
If you see a great idea in prototype phase, it can make you want to work with the people that made it (that is how we found Matt Fairfax)
I know that over the years here I have made many friends that I feel very comfortable working with.. both in an informal way and a formal way (2 longtime community members John Quigly and Matt Fiarfax are now part of our company)...
I would also recommend GID.. it will allow you to get to know people, and have some fun in the process. I would also recommend hanging out in the #garagegames IRC channel, and getting to know some of the community there..
03/29/2005 (9:06 pm)
I think one of the big problems is the volume of 'ideas' from relatively inexperienced developers. They have 'great' ideas, but they have no idea how to implement them. Some of the ideas are ideas that I had a long time ago (not so original).. or, the ideas they have are based on some feature set that I have seen implemented, that sounded fun, that just did not turn out to be all that much fun.. I still get commentary from thinktanks players how 360 degreee rotation of turrets would rock! (we tested it.. it sucks).. I would love to work with creative people with great ideas, but I would not want to join a team where the team leader is 16 and has 22 years less life experience and 8 years less game industry than I have. This is not to paint you specifically as a 'newb', but it does unfortunately describe a large majority of the 'idea' people that are trying to assemble a team, and why it can be difficult to assemble a team here from experienced devs..
If they could successfully lead a team, I would not mind working for them, but they have to prove themselves first. Some here on the forums, like Jay, and Jeremy Aleessi, Matt Fairfax, Tom Bampton, etc.. have proven themselves to be competent capable developers (and some have shipped products) and other realtive newcomers have made an impact with thier focus, drive and organization skills (Joshua Dallman pops right into my head here)..
Finding the right people to work with is a matter of getting to know who is who and who would be good to work with. As you have experience, it should not be too hard to find people that want to work with you, but you have to demonstrate why it is to theri benefit to do so, and just start hanging out so people can learn about you.
Speaking personally, I have a bunch of game ideas.. games that I want to work on. There is nothing that says that my ideas are better or worse than anyone else's, but my feeling is that a lot of the 'game' is in the implementation, and the person with the idea has to demonstrate that they can lead the team from the idea to the finished product, and make all the hard calls along the way during the implementation phase.
If you see a great idea in prototype phase, it can make you want to work with the people that made it (that is how we found Matt Fairfax)
I know that over the years here I have made many friends that I feel very comfortable working with.. both in an informal way and a formal way (2 longtime community members John Quigly and Matt Fiarfax are now part of our company)...
I would also recommend GID.. it will allow you to get to know people, and have some fun in the process. I would also recommend hanging out in the #garagegames IRC channel, and getting to know some of the community there..
#13
I would suspect that if you start your project, and then as you progress submit .plans to show the community your progress, you'll end up with some interest. After a couple of .plans, put the call out for another programmer or an artist, build your team as you need it.
Cheers,
Paul.
03/29/2005 (9:21 pm)
I've found that as you build your profile within the community, the easier it is for you to attract the right kind of people. On reading your profile, you're experienced (having done Trade Wars) and all, so I'm sure people there will be people interested in whatever you want to do.I would suspect that if you start your project, and then as you progress submit .plans to show the community your progress, you'll end up with some interest. After a couple of .plans, put the call out for another programmer or an artist, build your team as you need it.
Cheers,
Paul.
#14
GID has no formal structure or protocol, there is none of "submitting idea" and such. Just idle around in #gameinaday irc channel, there's always cool people there, doesnt have to be the exact GID weekend. And then you usually just start tinkering around, ask around for coding or art help, if/when need arises and so on. Its all pretty freestyle.
03/29/2005 (10:43 pm)
Simply put, stuff simply takes time to happen. Since this is more of a community than just recruiting boards, people tend to gravitate to other people who are more or less known within the community. For that to happen, well, GIDding would be your best bet, IMO. Plus, it'd allow you to prototype some ideas and elements of the grander design, if you feel so inclined.GID has no formal structure or protocol, there is none of "submitting idea" and such. Just idle around in #gameinaday irc channel, there's always cool people there, doesnt have to be the exact GID weekend. And then you usually just start tinkering around, ask around for coding or art help, if/when need arises and so on. Its all pretty freestyle.
#15
03/30/2005 (12:00 pm)
The thing about GID is that it helps you learn who the people are in the community who can actually get stuff done, and it also demonstrates that you belong in that same community.
#16
03/30/2005 (12:13 pm)
@Jay: Heheh, yeah. Understood. 
Mare Kuntz
You should try to identify what subgroup of fans/gamers will be enthused about your idea and mention a keyword of that fandom in the title of your helpwanted post, e.g. "the next Halo", "Myst", "Horror", "Mechas". For Xenallure, so much of the plot is about romance that only people who like romance would want to work on the game, so I usually put the word 'romance' in my post titles. Also Xenallure is designed to be comparable to a final fantasy game, so I can try to recruit final fantasy fans who would love to be involved in making what they are fans of.