Polygon limits--a few questions...

#1

Quote:"Here are the recommended maximum polygon counts (for your highest level of detail):
"Characters 2250 polygons
"Vehicles 1500 polygons
"Weapons 500 polygons"

This recommendations are a bit too much in my opinion
you can make a greate character with less than 2000 and even less than 1000 and for the
vehicles you can use 1000 and weapons can be less than 300 but it's all depend on your models.

Quote:are these recommendations made specifically for a FPS type of game? Does it apply to RTS also? Do these values need to be lower if, for example, you wish to have 20 to 30 units on the screen at one time?

For RTS you should lower the polycount, in FPS there will be max of 15 players on the screen
and in RTS there could be 50 plus in RTS you don't need to really see the details of the units
for example a tank cannon can be a cylinder with 3 sides and most people will not see it.
you should check some of the RTS models to see the polycount, just look at some pictures.

#2 Thanks, Eran.

Wow, I thought I was doing well getting my tank cannon's cylinder down to 10 sides...
I guess I have a bad habit in making sure that the models look good, forgetting that they'll be at some distance and most of the detail will simply not be visible.

#3 Those top poly counts for a FPS would be fine (if your talking about tris), ecspecially with LOD. It's obviously best if you can reduce some more though, but 2250 triangles isn't bad for a character at all. That is on the low side of a low poly model for most FPS's out there. Use LOD and remember the more that is on screen, the more efficient the models should be.

#4 As Blake said, accurate looking LoD (Level of Detail) is really key in having models that are extremely detailed when viewed very closely, but also don't destroy performance when viewed from afar. It puts a lot of work on the artist, but the results will handle all of what you are looking for.

As an example, the RTS-SK released with 3 basic unit models, between 500 and 700 polys each, IIRC. They do -not- utilize LoD, and look acceptable for a demo at extremely close range (the RTS-SK camera by design really doesn't let you get as close as an FPS camera would of course), but as soon as you zoom out some, you are rendering an average of 600 polys for units that really only need a fraction of that amount.

What's really amazing to me by the way is that I can get 100's of medium poly (780-ish average) on the TGE screen in wide angle/range using the RTS-SK without any serious performance hits--and that's without any LoD at all. We personally plan on implementing LoD, and having a super-high poly model for each unit for the players that will be viewing a particular unit or two "up close and personal"--that way, we can use 3k+ models with little concern for when there are only 10-ish units on screen if we see the need, while we can still have 500+ units in a wide angle view when needed as well.

Also, keep in mind that higher poly count is not the only technique you have available for making visually appealing models. A good texturer can do some wonderful things.

The following models are about 600 polys:



Models created by Radoslaw Marcin Kurczewski for Nemesis Vortex.

#5 Thanks a lot, Blake and Stephen.

Well, those look very good for only 600 polys--indeed, the art of texturing makes a great deal of difference. I've been forgetting that so much of the detail can be simulated thru texturing.

The first bunch of ships I made were inbetween 15 and 35 thousand (!) polygons, but I've redone them so they're around 1500, but some are about 1800 becuz they have more weaponry (typically, the models look okay and are just around 800 to 1000 polys, but when I add some weapons of course, they nearly double in amount of polys...which is okay, I guess, becuz I think I can still cut the polygons on the weapons in half).

So, I'm wondering how many models (for the same ship or character) would be best for LoD? I guessed three...one very low for being zoomed out a distance, one medium for closer shots, and of course a high polygon one for close-up views. Does that sound about right?

And I have a (perhaps silly) question concerning models and textures--keep in mind I'm still a beginner. Does everything need to have a texture? I mean, using 3DS Max, for most parts of my ships it seems that just adding material to them does an adequate job...for areas that are flat and have no real detail anyway, basically one color. For example, a simple small laser which is all black--does it need a texture or can material work? I don't know if these materials would show up in the game on the models--I'm still in the processing of making most of the simplier models and am not yet at the point of testing them in the game environment.

Any comments would be helpful, thanks.

#6 The number of Levels of Detail really depends on what your gameplay is like: Do players have the ability to start a camera out at (hypothetical here, since you mention ships) 2 miles view range (where you would see extremely small dots on the horizon, and possibly a wake on the ocean depending on angle) smoothly into staring down the bore of a cannon? If so, you'll probably want to be very excessive on the amount of LoD (a recent, and extremely well done, tree pack I think had 10 levels of detail for each tree, although I may be mis-remembering).

On the other hand, if you only have a couple of views: super long range, 1,000 feet, and on deck, then you'll probably only need 305 LoD's. It really depends on how your game will play.

I'm not an artist, so I can't answer the second major question really, but I think that the material isn't exported per se when aiming for TGE--just the texture itself. So yes, if my guess is true, you'd need a texture, but it's a very basic one!

#7 With my experience, I could only get textures to work, though there maybe a way. You should be using only one texture if you can, it is best to unwrap ithe whole model so you can fit all the parts onto a sheet and paint them in. Then when you re-apply the texture it will wrap around it fully...not sure if you knew that already or not. Also, parts that are just a flat color could benifit from some sort of texture. You can fake highlights, add more shadow, or some slight roughness. Those little details go a long way, and are sometimes as easy as applying a filter in Photoshop.

#8 Is LOD adjusted by a slider or is it the old fashioned way of handling things (i.e. you make separate models for each LOD level)? I was under the impression that Torque utilized something akin to a slider that you could move to optimize your models for varying distances from the camera. Is this incorrect?

#9 @Scott
LOD for character models in Max can be done via MultiRes or you can make separate models for each LOD.

#10 N00b question: What about skins? Is it generally ok to use the same skin for different LOD's? Or should different skins be used as well?

#11 Adam:
Torque uses mipmapping I believe......which basically boils down to decreasing the size of your texture and assigning it as a swappable art file that the engine takes care of automatically when the camera moves in and out relative to the object. So you might make one texture for a model at 512x512......then resize it for 256x256, 128x128, and 64x64. These will work like LOD, hot swapping the texture files whenever necessary.

Todd:
It sucks that I'd have to remake the models 3 times.....I tried the Multirez feature and it sucked. It made my model's fingers and such look like crap. I guess I'm too anal about my stuff looking tidy. We'll see if it's worth it to make all those detailed models. I was planning on beginning work on an rts design and I'm not sure I'll need to optimize too much since I won't have more than around 20-25 units onscreen at any given time (and more often 5-10). Currently my models are weighing in at about 2200 triangles fully decked out. Think Torque can handle those kinds of numbers?

#12 It obviously is going to depend on the camera controls you allow, and how the player can zoom, but keep in mind that you don't need 2,200 polys to render an image that takes up 1/2" of screen space (fully zoomed out for example). At that point, you can use a billboard and a couple of splashes of color.

That's the concept behind Level of Detail...realize that the lower levels of detail only get lower poly numbers because the shape will be so small on the screen that details such as fingers cannot even be seen, so why render them?

#13 I love the multires tool, so much faster than going in and reconstructing manually. But it's not the best answer for everything. Although, fingers aren't at all neccassary for a RTS, infact 2200 polys for a RTS is a little high. I would reduce that to about half (or less) generally, but maybe not in your case since you only have 25 onscreen. Just have to see how it performs.

#14 Stephen:

I'm not sure if you've worked with Torque's rts kit before, but I was wondering if you could give me some advice on LOD. Like I stated in the previous post, my base models at full detail with all doodads and weapons are between 2000 and 2200 tri's each. I figure with a serious rework I can make a low res version that's about 1300 tri's or so for everything. Assuming I want an rts that plays much closer than your standard god game.....but is still zoomed out, would Torque be strained if 15 or 20 of these 1300 tri units were running around the screen? I'd really like to keep them moderately detailed; with the tradeoff that there wouldn't be many of them onscreen together, ever.

#15 Blake:

First I have to get 'em rigged, animated, and find a programmer so we can buy a licence and get started. You can check out the models at the following links:

http://www.threedy.com/site/forum/showthread.php?t=26361&page=4

http://www.threedy.com/site/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=66400

http://www.threedy.com/site/forum/showthread.php?t=29520


BTW, my apologies for highjacking this thread.......I'll stop asking questions in someone else's post. Hope I wasn't overstepping my bounds. :)

#16 I think the thread naturally drifted in this direction, no problem imo. Hey these models look great, just need some more:) Good luck findin' the team. Hope it all goes well :) Sometimes that is the hardest part....

#17 Amen....highly skilled programmers are a biatch to find. Oh well....it's going to be a while until I'm ready in all honesty. It's a long road to completion...that much is for sure. Thanks for the kind words, BTW.....and I think if Stephen's description of getting 100's of 700+ tri units into the engine without trouble is accurate....I should have no problems getting upwards of 50 or so 2k models on the screen without too much of a peformance hit....but we'll see.

#18 @Scott: You should be fine from the pure rendering aspect using the RTS-SK (which is what I was talking about), but you are going to have to do some significant scene planning and camera limitations to ensure that only that many models are ever displayed at once.

I'm not going to let you off easy though on the concept of LoD, and the general concept that "less polys are better"! There are many techniques that can be used to minimize poly count, and many benefits to doing so. If the actual player's visual impression of the models are nearly, or perfectly, the same for a model that is 1,000 polys, and one that is 2,200 polys, then there aren't any compelling reasons (other than total production time to make the model) to use 2,200 polys. And the cpu cycles cost saved from rendering less polys can be used to make the game better--faster, or able to handle more activity client side.

#19 Stephen:

Agreed.......mostly I just don't want to have to make everything two or three times....and I don't want the models to ever get so low poly that they look downright boxy. Plus I'm kind of particular about how they look so I'd probably not use the MultiRes tool since I didn't like how the model turned out. I guess I'm just kind of lazy.....In thinking about it, though, I could probably cut them down to about 1100 poly's total with all equipment if I was a little crafty with the weapons and making use of alpha maps. :)

The ability to control the number of units on screen wouldn't be too hard since the player wouldn't be able to zoom out much past 50 feet in the air or so (think the tops of trees), so the camera I envision would limit zoom functionality enough so that the models would still be decent sized....though still small; probably an inch or an inch and a half in height.

#20 Well, I'd better go with full textures, then.

I thought about the camera zoom levels, and I think that more than three might be better--one close up, one at typical RTS point of view, one at long range, and the last at super long range. So, 4 would be good...maybe five...inbetween close-up and normal view.

That is a compelling argument, Stephen. I remade a model of a fighter, getting down the polygons from 1700 to just under 800 and I could not tell the difference. most of all the extra polys were basically in places where there should not have been any or just very few. (Actually, the very first was about 19,000 and when I made it again down to 1700, I could barely tell the difference, but it really looked better in some ways.)

Scott:

I understand totally about not wanting to make the same model over again--I really wanted to avoid that, too. But I said the hell with it one night and redid one model--it took a fraction of the time. In fact, since then, I've recreated all the models in lower polygon format and did it in basically one evening. (I just made a copy of the model I wanted to recreate, kept it in Max while I used wireframe mode to create lower polygon shapes, and extruded so it matched the dimensions of the original...then deleted the orignal from the scene--piece of cake). It took three days trying to find a way of *not* remaking that model but only a couple of hours actually remaking it.

Well, I have never heard of this MultiRes tool...what does it do?