Easier for artists - bah - what about programmers?
by John Vanderbeck · in General Discussion · 03/18/2005 (4:58 pm) · 12 replies
Ok so this was just something going through my head after seeing the Dev Snapshot made with T2D. T2D makes it so easy for artists with little coding skill to make a game. At least that's what i've heard, as I don't personally have T2D. In any case thats kind of irrelevant as it is just what started my thought process.
As engines, SDKS, etc mature i've noticed how a continuing trend -- intended or not -- is that they often make it easier for artists to make the games they want to make with little to no real coding skills. I think this is great, it makes it easier on artists. But what about us poor programmers with little to no artist skills? Waaaaaaaaaa. Wheres my tools that allow me to code my game and magicall yhave art assets that I can't do myself :p
As engines, SDKS, etc mature i've noticed how a continuing trend -- intended or not -- is that they often make it easier for artists to make the games they want to make with little to no real coding skills. I think this is great, it makes it easier on artists. But what about us poor programmers with little to no artist skills? Waaaaaaaaaa. Wheres my tools that allow me to code my game and magicall yhave art assets that I can't do myself :p
#2
03/18/2005 (6:20 pm)
I think everyone has a little programmer inside them waiting to get free. It just takes some work on the part of artists. It does pay to be a jack-of-all-trades though :)
#3
I think that if you're a great coder, chances are you've got enough of what it takes to understand good design in more than just your comfort zone.
But, anyways -- coders have content packs, as well as algorithms for generating trees and even mass-producing/mass-generating geometry (some of the stuff that has been coming out of MS Research and that they've been saying about the next XBox has been just SCARY). Not to mention that if an artist wants to add something to his game that it doesn't support -- he's sort of screwed.
But coders and artists are both idea people. The gulf isn't that wide.
03/18/2005 (6:44 pm)
I always refer people to Paul Graham's great essay, "Taste For Makers".I think that if you're a great coder, chances are you've got enough of what it takes to understand good design in more than just your comfort zone.
But, anyways -- coders have content packs, as well as algorithms for generating trees and even mass-producing/mass-generating geometry (some of the stuff that has been coming out of MS Research and that they've been saying about the next XBox has been just SCARY). Not to mention that if an artist wants to add something to his game that it doesn't support -- he's sort of screwed.
But coders and artists are both idea people. The gulf isn't that wide.
#4
What attracted me to T2D was the fact that it's also a good solid platform and it has some real nice tools built into it. (Such as the particle and tile editor.) I'm not a coding newbie, although I certainly don't claim to be one of any high skill. (Of or even moderate skill.) But T2D gives me tools that I can use without having to write them on my own.
I know a fair number of artists who are fairly competent coders. Maybe not "write an engine from scratch" but they can handle the scripting aspects of something like TGE or T2D. Generally, being a game artist means you have some overlap in that department.
As for programmers -- You can practice and be good artists, too. I actually see more of a 'I can never draw' bias from programmers than artists a lot of time -- that they can never, ever be good artists. Luc is right, both are idea people. There is that creativity inside all of us.
03/18/2005 (7:53 pm)
John: While you've got a point, I want to point out that it wasn't a matter of point-n-click to make Cloudburst. T2D (at least in its current incarnation) won't do everything for you. You still need to know how to write script. Of course, what T2D does is significantly lower the bar from people who want to write a game. Learning how to write T2D script isn't that hard and can be picked up relatively quickly. Since T2D is easier than, say, TGE you can also learn its interface relatively quickly too. (Compared to a full-sized 3D engine such as TGE/TSE.)What attracted me to T2D was the fact that it's also a good solid platform and it has some real nice tools built into it. (Such as the particle and tile editor.) I'm not a coding newbie, although I certainly don't claim to be one of any high skill. (Of or even moderate skill.) But T2D gives me tools that I can use without having to write them on my own.
I know a fair number of artists who are fairly competent coders. Maybe not "write an engine from scratch" but they can handle the scripting aspects of something like TGE or T2D. Generally, being a game artist means you have some overlap in that department.
As for programmers -- You can practice and be good artists, too. I actually see more of a 'I can never draw' bias from programmers than artists a lot of time -- that they can never, ever be good artists. Luc is right, both are idea people. There is that creativity inside all of us.
#5
And David I never meant to imply that Cloudburst was click and created so my apologies if it sounded that way.
Disclaimer: The above was written after coming home from a night on the town so if it makes zero sense, stop, consume several drinks, and read it again. If it still makes no sense then do what i'm about to do and fall over and sleep on the ground and that will make it all better. I hope.
03/18/2005 (9:59 pm)
Sure i'm a creative person, but I defintly can't draw :)And David I never meant to imply that Cloudburst was click and created so my apologies if it sounded that way.
Disclaimer: The above was written after coming home from a night on the town so if it makes zero sense, stop, consume several drinks, and read it again. If it still makes no sense then do what i'm about to do and fall over and sleep on the ground and that will make it all better. I hope.
#6
As far as game dev goes, I think that you are going to start seeing algorithmic art utilized to help cut down on production cost. If you have a solid gameplay model in place, ultimately it doesnt matter how finely tuned your art is so long as its a tight, solid aesthetic. Players will believe wireframe terrain and triangle pyramids for world objects if it supports the gameplay.
I think this model is ESPECIALLY useful in the indie community. As indies, we should be looking to try and topple Doom3 or World of Warcraft. I think energy would be better spent trying to tackle things like alogorithmic triangles and wireframes since we dont have EA or one of its equivolents telling us that it wont sell.
Besides that, not too many people have done it yet. What better way to get your game on the radar than to do something new?
03/19/2005 (6:07 am)
Id like to echo what Luc said about algorithmic art. I dont know if you are at all familiar with the contemporary art scene, but as far as digital stuff goes algorithmic art is getting HUGE. As far as game dev goes, I think that you are going to start seeing algorithmic art utilized to help cut down on production cost. If you have a solid gameplay model in place, ultimately it doesnt matter how finely tuned your art is so long as its a tight, solid aesthetic. Players will believe wireframe terrain and triangle pyramids for world objects if it supports the gameplay.
I think this model is ESPECIALLY useful in the indie community. As indies, we should be looking to try and topple Doom3 or World of Warcraft. I think energy would be better spent trying to tackle things like alogorithmic triangles and wireframes since we dont have EA or one of its equivolents telling us that it wont sell.
Besides that, not too many people have done it yet. What better way to get your game on the radar than to do something new?
#7
Of course, those people were usually salespeople who didn't know one thing about programming.
Those tools are nowhere NEAR as sophisticated as the automated code generation capability of Visual Basic .NET, which I'm using right now in my day job. When I learned how to use Strongly Typed Datasets --- woah. One morning I generated 20,000 lines of code in about 30 minutes through that thing. Wow.
Do I fear for my job? No way! Not even close!!! About the worst these sorts of things do is *slightly* reduce the demand for entry-level "coders". Because these tools reduce the amount of "grunt work" that has to be done by a software engineer, leaving them free to do the far more sophisticated (and interesting) stuff. And really - would you rather be working on improving the smarts of the game AI, or creating yet another Save Game dialog?
As for me - anything that saves me a lot of work and allows me to be more productive as a small indie developer is a Big Deal.
Basically, these allow a single programmer to do far more work. Just as every other advance. No matter how powerful an engine - including Torque2D - it's going to have some pretty apparent limitations. As an artist with reasonably competent scripting skills, you can probably do a lot to work around those limitations. But if you want to blow those limitations out of the water and do something different, you're gonna need a programmer.
03/20/2005 (9:01 am)
You know, some industry commentors have predicted the death of the programming profession for a long time due to the sophistication of tools and practices. I remember in the late 80's and early 90's hearing people tell me that the new visual programming tools would take all the software generation out of the hands of programmers and into the hands of managers and specialists.Of course, those people were usually salespeople who didn't know one thing about programming.
Those tools are nowhere NEAR as sophisticated as the automated code generation capability of Visual Basic .NET, which I'm using right now in my day job. When I learned how to use Strongly Typed Datasets --- woah. One morning I generated 20,000 lines of code in about 30 minutes through that thing. Wow.
Do I fear for my job? No way! Not even close!!! About the worst these sorts of things do is *slightly* reduce the demand for entry-level "coders". Because these tools reduce the amount of "grunt work" that has to be done by a software engineer, leaving them free to do the far more sophisticated (and interesting) stuff. And really - would you rather be working on improving the smarts of the game AI, or creating yet another Save Game dialog?
As for me - anything that saves me a lot of work and allows me to be more productive as a small indie developer is a Big Deal.
Basically, these allow a single programmer to do far more work. Just as every other advance. No matter how powerful an engine - including Torque2D - it's going to have some pretty apparent limitations. As an artist with reasonably competent scripting skills, you can probably do a lot to work around those limitations. But if you want to blow those limitations out of the water and do something different, you're gonna need a programmer.
#8
That doesn't make sense. Someone has to program, maintain, and innovate those tools.
I'm sure there are artists that complain that tools like Photoshop, Illustrator, Poser, XSI, and ZBrush often make it easier for programmers to create art without having any real drawing, painting, or sculpting skills ;p
I think these game development tools are aimed at helping Game Designers make games and increase productivity. I would not expect an artist to be able to make a better game than a programmer. Perhaps a better looking game, but there is so much more to a game than looks. How about Audio, AI, Interface, Puzzles, or Level Design? In the end a tool is not going to make up for a lack of talent, but it will help those with talent to work faster.
03/20/2005 (11:20 am)
Quote:You know, some industry commentors have predicted the death of the programming profession for a long time due to the sophistication of tools and practices.
That doesn't make sense. Someone has to program, maintain, and innovate those tools.
Quote:As engines, SDKS, etc mature i've noticed how a continuing trend -- intended or not -- is that they often make it easier for artists to make the games they want to make with little to no real coding skills.
I'm sure there are artists that complain that tools like Photoshop, Illustrator, Poser, XSI, and ZBrush often make it easier for programmers to create art without having any real drawing, painting, or sculpting skills ;p
I think these game development tools are aimed at helping Game Designers make games and increase productivity. I would not expect an artist to be able to make a better game than a programmer. Perhaps a better looking game, but there is so much more to a game than looks. How about Audio, AI, Interface, Puzzles, or Level Design? In the end a tool is not going to make up for a lack of talent, but it will help those with talent to work faster.
#9
03/21/2005 (10:45 am)
T2D just allows programmers to show their stuff that much easier... instead of being hitched with complexity they can get a lot more done quicker as well as some pretty spiffy advanced things also :)
#11
03/21/2005 (6:50 pm)
The only disadvantage to better tools is that you have less of an excuse to "take a long time" to do something at work. Not that I've ever done that... 
#12
And very busy.
03/24/2005 (3:02 pm)
Ain't nuthin' wrong with being a jack-of-all-trades. I got one of my consulting gigs by selling myself as "an engineer who can write, or a writer who does engineering." In a similar fashion, being able to jump back and forth between the programming and art sides of the business makes you very valuable.And very busy.
Torque 3D Owner Matthew Langley
Torque