A request for T2D! and how does it compare with GM?

#1 Hi David,

1) No. If you'd like to get both TGE and T2D, the smartest way to do it is to buy Torque first, then buy T2D, as you get the $20 discount on T2D Early Adopter.

2) Yes, we will be submitting devmaster's engine list as T2D evolves.

As for comparing T2D against GameMaker... Torque 2D has vastly, vastly superior core technology, but is much weaker on tools and editors. T2D is a hardware-accelerated 2D engine with full support for sprites and incredible tile, particle, collision, physics, GUI, and scripting systems. T2D has a GUI editor, Tile Editor, and Particle Editor, but does not have nearly as many editors and tools as GameMaker overall. We will be working very, very hard to create new tools and editors for T2D though.

Also, T2D is cross-platform (it runs on Windows, OS X, and Linux), and comes with the engine's entire C++ source-code, and a very friendly license that lets you distribute games anywhere, with no strings attached.

#2 Hmm thanks alot Josh since im really out of cash in this instant i cant buy it but dont think i wont,ill keep a look out for it!

#3 Say Josh, I thought Gamemaker was 3D only, or am I thingking of another product!

#4 Your thinking of another product. I actually like game maker but it doesn't compare at all to T2D

While I admit that I do really like how gamemaker has there editor setup, I have no doubt that T2D will get there eventually.

Another thing to consider is that you limit yourself graphically with gamemaker. And it doesn't take all that much to put it over its limit. At least the last time I messed with it

#5 GameMaker 3d is what you're probably thinking of, Amanda. It takes no talent whatsoever to make a game with that.

Torque 2d is much more complicated than GameMaker... Just as a warning... But it's power isn't even comparable.

#6 I've been using Mark Overmars' GameMaker for some time, and it's an excellent little product for simple to intermediate 2D (and psuedo 3D) games. A very mature product, as Josh mentions above, and very easy to use. Includes scripting, simple particle editing, internal game compiler, etc., but again as Josh mentions it really doesn't compare to T2D for game creation possibilities. I've had fun making some cute little games in GameMaker, and Mark has done an exceptional job with it, but I switched to T2D without hesitation. T2D on it's own has a lot of power under the hood, but given you can use it in combination with TGE (which I haven't done yet) the possibilities seem endless.

I also bought GameMaker 3D from The Game Creators (different name back then) back when I first bought Dark Basic Pro, and while not wanting to offend anyone GM3D is a game system for 8 year olds. Drop a pre-made character into a pre-made level with a few pre-made objects and you have a VERY simple FPS that can only be given away.

I'll still keep GameMaker 6 around. The boys love making games with it, and it works well for them, but I'll be using T2D exclusively for 2D development from now on. I'm fairly new to the community, but I'm more impressed by Melv, Josh and the rest of the GG guys every day...

#7 I still have my copy of GM5...been using GM since early v4....but even from the demos i see, T2D looks a lot better. As a big plus, it comes with source.

I agree with George in that T2d is prob gonna be a lot more complicated to use...think of GM as a snap-together plastic model, while T2D is a customizable plastic model....err...something like that....i need sleep..

#8 Well, T2D would probably be more like building the actual plane, rather than the model. ^^

#9 GM isnt bad , I doubt it has the speed of T2d , But i really havent used it much.
Its fast at drawing sprites, its the script that seems a bit slow.
but for 20$ its not a bad program.(and theres a free version with some features missing)
Its particle system isnt comparable to T2D,
GM seems to compile to a single exe only?

T2D's image quality also seems to be much better, its clean and sharp even when scaled.

I guess if you have no money...get GM.

Otherwise Go with T2d, with GG behind it , T2d will continue to grow and get better.(plus you have the source code)

But in the end, its up to you...which ever will get you closer to making a Game :)

#10 Currently, T2D's biggest hump is ease of integration for complete non-programmers. GameMaker (GM) addresses this with an easy-to-use editor (though I find it extremely counter-intuitive, just like I find Director-inspired interfaces like Multimedia Fusion (MMF) to be clunky for interactive gaming...though great for what Director was primarily concerned with during its design). T2D relies on TorqueScript for creating simple examples. While I don't consider this a "bad" thing, it is different on the scale of usability between T2D and other GM-esque packages out there. It also makes it much more extensible than GM or The Game's Factory (TGM). But it also currently forces new developers to learn basic programming rather than learning a basic development platform and then extending into programming if they need to (as with most other GM-esque systems).

This isn't to say that when it hits final release, there won't be an integrated environment much like GM/TGF/MMF, but it's not currently in the EA release.

When it comes to features, T2D is hands down better than GM and TGF. Not only are the physics, particle effects, tiling engine, and organizational interface of coding conventions fully realized, but with T2D, licensees can create games for Windows, Mac, and Linux instead of just Windows. For an indie dev who sees the commercial saturation of the Windows market, Linux and Mac look great.

3D Game Maker (3DGM) is a horrible product, though it is a good showing of the power of Dark Basic (3DGM was written completely in DB and shows that a DB programmer can do some pretty cool things...except that the design of 3DGM is where the product falls apart). Technically, it's a nice showing. Realistically, it's atrocious. It allows for the creation of simple click-together levels and gametypes. There is next to no true modification. It would be interesting to give to a child to see how they would interpret some of the features, but the control scheme and playability of the levels are so egregious that most children would get frustrated and lose interest within minutes of playing with the product.

GM is a nice, compact, game engine that lowers the programming bar for new developers. It's a competant product. 3DGM is a toy with little-to-no relevance in the game development community, even for new developers who want to learn the basics. T2D is currently a programmer-driven engine (though with a much lower bar of entry than most 2D programming engines), but once it is out of EA, it will be MUCH more friendly to the non-programmer population. As it is, the programming required is often basic, though it can quickly get hairy if you're learning TorqueScript AND the engine (still much easier than learning TorqueScript and TGE).

Still, for the featureset and price of admission, I haven't seen anything that can beat T2D. The documentation will get you up and running extremely quickly, whether you're a programmer or not. And the community is great. I've actually had a very positive experience with most of the basic game maker communities out there (the Dark Basic, Blitz forums, Game Maker forums, The Game's Factory, Multimedia Fusion, etc). Part of benefit of GG's T2D forums is that many of us have been using the Torque Game Engine for a long time and can answer a number of questions about TorqueScript that come up. Plus, the professionalism of GG's forums has rubbed off there. Sometimes this can cause unintentional clashes since many game development sites have much looser flaming and trolling policies. But in the end its a good thing. A VERY good thing. The community has rallied around T2D just as it has around the RTS kit and has become a very important part of the T2D integration process.

EDIT: Fixed my run-away parentheticals. Now if I'd fix my run-away mouth...er, fingers.

#11 David,

That's a very well balanced and concise description of the packages available, thank you. :)

I don't think we've really got to pitching T2D at the moment. Hell, we did a stealthy release and the GDC is only just over so we're about to get back to work on T2D big time.

I'd hate to get involved in a head-to-head competition as it can get ugly real quick. I think at this stage, we'll just document T2D and let it stand up on its own. Anything other would just be arrogant no matter how much we believe in the technology. T2D has got a bright future and we want to make it accessible to as many people as possible and we'll be doing lots of work to make sure that we realise that. We're already cross-platform which is a big win, leveraging the powerful TorqueScript is another bonus. Adding in a sprinkling of physics, fast collision-detection, particles, tilemaps, scrollers etc and you've got a real powerful base to start from.

T2D is already easy for people to pick-up, get stuff moving and then decide whether they want to take it further and make a production quality game. T2D is a baby at the moment, we've got a good starter tutorial where you can build a real game example and a good reference guide but, in the end, it is a baby but it's a baby with a serious attitude and likewise, we feel quite protective of it but I'd like to think that we wouldn't intentionally say that it is better than . When more demos and information get our there, I'd hope that people will be able to make their own minds up based upon that material. Dependant upon your budget, there's no reason why you can't use both products if it suits but we'd obviously like to get to a point where you'd be happy with T2D on its own.

T2D will eventually have some serious tools to encapsulate its underlying technology and then it will really shine.

- Melv.

#12 Nah, the "marketing buzz" hasn't even begun with T2D, and I'm sure that the buzz will only escalate with each advance. It's already well beyond anything that I'd hoped for several months back when I wandered across the "hmm, it might be fun to do 2D stuff with Torque or something" .plan. And it's only getting better. I can't wait to see the next generation of editors that you guys have in the works, or the marketing spin that'll go out with the door with the full release. I was a T2D supporter back in the day when I had nothing in my hands to play with. I'm an even stronger one now!

#13 With a few more months of ass kicking development by the GG folks having taken place since the most recent prior post on this thread....

....what's the assessment now of T2D versus GM2D from a "novice developer's" perspective?

#14 Funny. I'm trying T2D right now. I find it to be fundamentally terrible. It's poorly documented, the scripting language is needlessly complex, the UI is absolutely horrible, and of course it's got such a sharp learning curve that I may just die of blood loss.

Compared to the flexability, power, and fun involved in GameMaker, I must say that it doesn't come close to Mark's little program.

First of all, the scripting language requires you to use a C++ language, which is not suitable for beginners. Gamemaker on the other hand has a rather carefree scripting language which mimics Pascal, Java, and a host of other more simple to comprehend languages, all at once. You could write if-then-begin-end-else-begin-end, or just if-{-}-else-{-}.

Second, the UI has a poorly conceived design that could confuse users. For example, if you want to do simple actions like User Input, you must use actual Scripting, whereas in Gamemaker you have the choice between Drag & Drop tiles, or simple commands.

Compared to the massive manual and Community support provided by Mark, Torque is a laugh.

And of course, to the argument that you can extend Torque since it's open source, you seem to forget that Gamemaker is able to use DLLs, allowing virtually anything.

I don't see how you could possibly argue (with real arguements, not "it looks promising") that this engine is superior to GM. GM is faster, more effiecient, easier to comprehend... The list goes on and on.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, GM does have 3D support now in it's new versions.

www.gamemaker.nl

Try it, and make the decision yourself. I guarentee that you'll like it better.

#15

#16 Heheheheh. I see I wasn't the only one who had "spammer" alarms goin' off. heh.

#17 Brian - heh. Bad URL.