Exclusive Torque distribution via CVS?

#1 I think that a CVS only solution could be a bit intimidating for new first time users.

Giving them the option to download Torque, like I did when I first came is would seem like the best solution to me.

If getting the engine is to hard or confusing you could scared away alot of new users.

// Clocks out

#2 The CVS Getting Started Docs we have now are very thorough but if we went exclusively with CVS we would put some incredible polish on the docs.

#3 Anything wrong with doing both? CVS is fine for me, but a cron job (at least an equivalent of one) on a Windows computer taking a snapshot and building binaries into a setup package would be useful for those who don't want to deal with CVS.

#4 I believe that there are many developers (or potential developers) out there that have never used a source code control system such as CVS. At first glance it is a little intimidating. Whereas the self-extracting installation is simple and most everyone is used to such things. The docs are pretty straightforward, though, so that might not be a big problem.

You mention that the installation executable won't be nearly as current as the CVS repository. I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily. I'm assuming it will always match the latest point release of the code, which is a pretty stable place from which to start. If it is the latest point release, then I'd stick with the installation executable.

Dave Myers
21-6 Productions

#5 that's hard on 56k users too

#6 Actually CVS should be much more friendly to modem users than the monolithic download.

#7 I think using pure CVS would be fine as long as there were some polished up docs on how to use it. The current help log that you have posted on how to get the latest build is pretty easy to follow. As long as people know what version of the code they are downloading and understand why they are downloading that version it should be fine (the current help log explains this well). Plus if you could only get the Torque through CVS there is a fairly large, and very helpful community to answer any questions anyone has about CVS or getting Torque working.

If someone can't follow a few instructions or be bothered to ask for help I don't think they would be too successful with the engine anyway. Anyone who has posted on the forums and is new to programming has been willing to go through the steps to get everything set up.

My opinion is a little bias as I've already got the TGE. Maybe someone who was thinking about buying it could make a post...

Alc

#8 Personally I think you should provide a downloadable installation as well as CVS. New users would be intimidated by only being able to get the code via CVS.

When you first puchase TGE there is nothing better than running the install then being able to click on a EXE and test it out. When you are ready to get serious with the engine you shift to CVS.

That being said. When you release a demo, new users will get to see the capabilities and if they are willing to fork out $100 then I don't think there will be an issue with forcing them to install and configre CVS.

Andy

#9 My take on this Rick, is that the CVS is fine for source release, as long as everyone can download a demo executable seperately.

I'd suggest that nine times out of ten, people want to just play with the demo to see whats in it before they get into the source. So give them that first, then let em dive into the CVS if they want to actually build.

Whats the issue with having an installable version btw? someone already mentioned, it could be automated to create a downloadable/installable version once a week or whatever anyway.

Obviously, if the people are serious, theyre going to use the CVS to access the code. But I guess there may be unforseen circumstances where its not possible?

Phil.

#10 The demo will be downloadable separately by everyone not just by Torque owners. (it will be an executable and required scripts).

Unfortunately building the the installer is far from an automated process. But even if it wasn't there are still enough downsides to the installer version that I am not sure it worth the initial ease.

Here is quick little pro/con for each side.
What am I missing? Help me complete the lists.

Installer Version of Torque
pro? - a fancy installer
pro - an easier install
pro - pre built exe and tools
con - code always lagging behind cvs.
con - will have to wait for next installer to be built to get fixes
con - difficult to update code later if you make code changes because you will need to do it by hand
con - not an automated process for GarageGames
con - installer licensing for GarageGames
con - soon different installers will be needed for different operating systems (Windows, Mac, Linux)
con - problematic for modem users

CVS Version of Torque
con? - must build your own tools and exe
con - cvs is a new tool to learn for many developers
pro - it's a tool you should learn to use
pro - cvs is a popular, well documented tool
pro - cvs is an industry standard used by virtually all OpenSource projects
pro - up to date code 24/7
pro - history of code changes
pro - automatic code merging with new versions
pro - instant access to fixes
pro - ability to diff code ageist older versions
pro - ability to easily generate patch-diffs
pro - works on Windows, Mac and Linux (not to mention hundreds of other operating systems)
pro - more robust for modem users, especially when doing updates to latest code.

This is a great discussion guys, thanks for opinions and help.
--Rick

#11 "con? - must build your own tools and exe "

Couldn't you have a separate branch with prebuilt exe's lib's and dll's for those who want to download them? There's probably no need for the obj files - except maybe those which are compiled asm. A set of paths for Mac built exes, PC built exes, etc. Might be more work than it's worth - but it should be doable.

#12 I think CVS only for ppl who have purchased the TGE would be fine, seeing as the demo will be downloadable seperately. With those docs its not hard to use, and like you said "it's a tool you should learn to use".
You might not get precompiled binaries, but all you have to is open up the project file and click build project. Well try and make sure its always as simple as that :)

#13 well, an installer is a bit of overkill, why not just do a weekly tar or zip? I know that can be scripted :)

That gives you both worlds, doesn't it? I honestly didn't see the value in a full blown installer. I ended up using a copy of the directory to do my work anyway. So I had to manually "install" the code.

Did the installer make the reg changes for C++?

#14 Why not use the CVS for up to date code, and then have zips of all the stable releases, like v1.0 v1.1 etc?

When people first buy the code, they want to see what they got. They probably don't want to get into the code right away, so a pre-compiled version would be better.

#15 It's my understanding that you can pull specific revisions out of the CVS tree.

#16 The problem with zips Neil is everytime we build another zip you need to download the whole thing, 10MB, every time. CVS automatically downloads only the files that have changed, generally a very small download?

--Rick

#17
I can live with a CVS only distribution of Torque and I can live with it the way it is at the moment.

Either way doesn't really bother me

#18 Yeah CVS is nice until you can't get to the website to get the client :( (i.e. i can't).

Personally i say do both.

#19 haha, talk about reviving old threads =)

#20 Well, I'm not a Torque user or anything, but I want to say this:

Getting rid of the installer would be a big mistake on the part of Garage Games. Don't think about pros and cons to convince Torque-owners over. Think about your business. People want it fun and easy, not complex and hard. Trust me when I say half of them won't buy Torque if there is no easy way to access it. At least not until the demo is released, at which time you CAN use that as an executable, but an actual compiled version of the base source code...that can often help amateur coders figure out what the code does.

New people to the software want an easy, fast way to see what they bought. It's the American way. Sure, you've got these guys saying CVS is up to date and all, but they're all experienced with CVS and like it already. Just because you have docs on it doesn't mean it makes it easy. A lot of people will shy away because they don't want to read all those docs to know how to use the thing they already paid for. It's the truth, albeit a sad one.

Just my thoughts on this.