Overtime for EA Employees
by Ian Smithers · in General Discussion · 03/10/2005 (4:40 am) · 49 replies
Clicky.
I like this particular part myself:
"This tears at the employment model that Silicon Valley was built on," said Rusty Rueff, the director of human resources for Electronic Arts, which has 5,800 workers. Overtime pay will move game developers "out of a culture that emphasizes entrepreneurialism and ownership and into a clock-watching mentality," he said.
Yes curse those people who work 7 days a week and *gasp* watch the clock...
Ian
I like this particular part myself:
"This tears at the employment model that Silicon Valley was built on," said Rusty Rueff, the director of human resources for Electronic Arts, which has 5,800 workers. Overtime pay will move game developers "out of a culture that emphasizes entrepreneurialism and ownership and into a clock-watching mentality," he said.
Yes curse those people who work 7 days a week and *gasp* watch the clock...
Ian
#22
Because it's not industry standard for the software development industry in general (though it has it's own share of stupidity)
Because EA (and others) achieves these results through false pretenses and empty promises.
The sorts of crap going on in the industry (not JUST EA) include some of these types of wonderful oddities.
* People are hired with the expectation of it being a permanent, long-term position. They sell their house, uproot their families, and move. They work their butts off for eight months, ship the product close to on-time, and are then laid off. Why? The company really wanted contractors, but they didn't want to have to pay contractor wages. It was cheaper for them to pretend that they were hiring the individuals as permanent employees. In the meantime, the former employees are royally screwed.
* Employees are hired at a pay rate that assumes standard 40-hour work-weeks. But they expect to have to work "some" overtime to meet the bottom line. This expectation is then abused by management when the "some" overtime is treated as mandatory AVERAGE 50%+ overtime. While this may be becoming more and more of a usual practice in the industry, it hasn't become common knowledge, it's HARDLY universal, and that expectation has not been built into employee contracts. It's another underhanded trick.
* Several larger companies have gradually cut back on compensations and bonuses for employees for putting in the insane hours. EA recently (prior to the EASpouse incident) created a new policy "minimimizing" comp time. One company I was at had 'improved' the bonus / royalty plan - the main improvement being that it capped the maximum bonus potential for employees (apparently the employees had made WAY too much money on the previous plan after they'd been responsible for a couple of runaway hits). So the whole concept of "Enterprenuerialism and Ownership" is a completely one-sided arrangement favoring the company and shareholders now - employees receive nothing but vague promises and, at best, token recognition or rewards.
* The whole argument about employees now becoming clock-watchers is ridiculous. MANAGEMENT has been watching the clock for years, and firing those who didn't meet 'unofficial' increased minima. The fact that EA Management is bellyaching over the new policy allowing a reciprocal relationship is the height of hypocrisy.
This crap is not limited to the games industry, of course. I was recently at a non-game company that exhibited similar practices --- one team was on mandatory overtime for months, with extended "core" hours that they had to be there. I don't believe that their being behind schedule was the fault of the employees (though that could have been part of it) - a lot of it was due to changing requirements and management screw-ups. Anyway, after months of slaving away under emergency conditions - experiencing health problems in some cases - they shipped their product on the revised deadline, and received tons of congratulatory emails from the CEO on down the chain, thanking them for their hard work and shipping an excellent product which was sure to be a major addition to our (major, international) corporate product / solution offerings.
Two weeks later, the entire team was let go.
03/14/2005 (9:42 am)
Quote:But the article clearly states that the hours they work are normal for the industry and there was nothing in it to say that they get paid less than other people in the industry. Contract work is also normal in the game industry. How is it they are being treated unfairly?Because EA is big enough and influential enough that it's practices pretty much DEFINE the norm.
Because it's not industry standard for the software development industry in general (though it has it's own share of stupidity)
Because EA (and others) achieves these results through false pretenses and empty promises.
The sorts of crap going on in the industry (not JUST EA) include some of these types of wonderful oddities.
* People are hired with the expectation of it being a permanent, long-term position. They sell their house, uproot their families, and move. They work their butts off for eight months, ship the product close to on-time, and are then laid off. Why? The company really wanted contractors, but they didn't want to have to pay contractor wages. It was cheaper for them to pretend that they were hiring the individuals as permanent employees. In the meantime, the former employees are royally screwed.
* Employees are hired at a pay rate that assumes standard 40-hour work-weeks. But they expect to have to work "some" overtime to meet the bottom line. This expectation is then abused by management when the "some" overtime is treated as mandatory AVERAGE 50%+ overtime. While this may be becoming more and more of a usual practice in the industry, it hasn't become common knowledge, it's HARDLY universal, and that expectation has not been built into employee contracts. It's another underhanded trick.
* Several larger companies have gradually cut back on compensations and bonuses for employees for putting in the insane hours. EA recently (prior to the EASpouse incident) created a new policy "minimimizing" comp time. One company I was at had 'improved' the bonus / royalty plan - the main improvement being that it capped the maximum bonus potential for employees (apparently the employees had made WAY too much money on the previous plan after they'd been responsible for a couple of runaway hits). So the whole concept of "Enterprenuerialism and Ownership" is a completely one-sided arrangement favoring the company and shareholders now - employees receive nothing but vague promises and, at best, token recognition or rewards.
* The whole argument about employees now becoming clock-watchers is ridiculous. MANAGEMENT has been watching the clock for years, and firing those who didn't meet 'unofficial' increased minima. The fact that EA Management is bellyaching over the new policy allowing a reciprocal relationship is the height of hypocrisy.
This crap is not limited to the games industry, of course. I was recently at a non-game company that exhibited similar practices --- one team was on mandatory overtime for months, with extended "core" hours that they had to be there. I don't believe that their being behind schedule was the fault of the employees (though that could have been part of it) - a lot of it was due to changing requirements and management screw-ups. Anyway, after months of slaving away under emergency conditions - experiencing health problems in some cases - they shipped their product on the revised deadline, and received tons of congratulatory emails from the CEO on down the chain, thanking them for their hard work and shipping an excellent product which was sure to be a major addition to our (major, international) corporate product / solution offerings.
Two weeks later, the entire team was let go.
#23
...oh, stock options...Ha! The market's just screamin' back to where it was...and sounds a bit like, 'I'll gladly pay you, Tuesday, for a hamburger, Today...;)' wild speculation on what something 'might' be worth years from now; when, contractually, you are able to trade in those valuable scripts of paper.
"...If you don't get a share in the successess, why should you be expected to share in the losses"[sacrafice for lost deadline, poor plannning, overambitious designing]??
03/14/2005 (12:46 pm)
Excellent points, Joe B and Jay B. I'm sorry but, "But they expect to have to work "some" overtime to meet the bottom line.", sounds like 'free work' to me. And the idea that Comp Time can be utilized as designed. Sounds to me like a lot of setups for failure, stacking the deck as it were. Sure, you get 'comp. time', but don't dare use it, or you risk being cast aside. Ask for simply cash for the time[bit of quid-pro-quo], and suddenly you are ungrateful, malcontent, agitator...again; a total, "We win!" situation for those at the top of the Pyramid....pitting worker against brother worker for a space in a tiny life boat...gad, how cannabalistic; read all the books on ecomonics you want; there are only so many hours in your entire life, ya have to decide what they're worth[if a couple of neck massages, or a game of basketball pays the rent, buys the gas, bridgetolls, etc]....don't let anyone tell you, that you 'owe' it to the company to work for free, to help a bottom line that doesn't reflect the input given....oh, stock options...Ha! The market's just screamin' back to where it was...and sounds a bit like, 'I'll gladly pay you, Tuesday, for a hamburger, Today...;)' wild speculation on what something 'might' be worth years from now; when, contractually, you are able to trade in those valuable scripts of paper.
"...If you don't get a share in the successess, why should you be expected to share in the losses"[sacrafice for lost deadline, poor plannning, overambitious designing]??
#24
03/14/2005 (2:36 pm)
The only nice thing about comp time is that they usually have to pay it out when they inevitably lay you off.
#25
Seems like maybe you should read it again if you can't explain how it applies properly in this instance. Additionally ... this is much more complex than algebra ... I know about different economic concepts ... I love capitalism ... however I feel there should be some morals thrown in for good measure. I own a business and people work for me ... I treat them right and pay them fairly ... if I want more out of them but they need personal time I find another way to accomplish my goals that doesn't involve laying them off.
EA can easily provide a working environment with 40 hour work weeks and still be successful. Quality of life considerations should be a high priority for any business operation. It's not simply about the money.
Just because the company can be more profitable by firing an older employee that no longer wants to work 80 hours a week and picking up someone new who is willing to do it ... doesn't mean the company should.
What's the goal here on Earth?
I basically agree with everything Jay stated above.
03/14/2005 (10:09 pm)
Quote:
read the book I recommended
Seems like maybe you should read it again if you can't explain how it applies properly in this instance. Additionally ... this is much more complex than algebra ... I know about different economic concepts ... I love capitalism ... however I feel there should be some morals thrown in for good measure. I own a business and people work for me ... I treat them right and pay them fairly ... if I want more out of them but they need personal time I find another way to accomplish my goals that doesn't involve laying them off.
EA can easily provide a working environment with 40 hour work weeks and still be successful. Quality of life considerations should be a high priority for any business operation. It's not simply about the money.
Just because the company can be more profitable by firing an older employee that no longer wants to work 80 hours a week and picking up someone new who is willing to do it ... doesn't mean the company should.
What's the goal here on Earth?
I basically agree with everything Jay stated above.
#26
The way you present this argument ... it'd be fine for everyone to just go out and do whatever they want so long as it's within their power ... if the laws of economics allow it then so be it.
Well ... hey if we stopped social progression at the laws of physics then I'd have a good shot at success simply by using physical force ... being a fairly strong guy and all. But ... we've got morals in there to stop people from abusing their physical power and it's accepted practice not to abuse your physical power regardless of consequences like capital punishment. In other words I don't abuse my physical power because I understand what a negative impact it would have on the overall quality of life for everyone around me ... it has nothing to do with any punishment I might receive. Economic power should be controlled or restrained in a similar manner ... with the aim of raising the overall quality of life.
03/14/2005 (10:48 pm)
I think I even mentioned this last time a debate like this came up. You talk about economics ... in a manner like physics. These are the laws of economics etc... Well people have the power to manipulate those laws and they do.The way you present this argument ... it'd be fine for everyone to just go out and do whatever they want so long as it's within their power ... if the laws of economics allow it then so be it.
Well ... hey if we stopped social progression at the laws of physics then I'd have a good shot at success simply by using physical force ... being a fairly strong guy and all. But ... we've got morals in there to stop people from abusing their physical power and it's accepted practice not to abuse your physical power regardless of consequences like capital punishment. In other words I don't abuse my physical power because I understand what a negative impact it would have on the overall quality of life for everyone around me ... it has nothing to do with any punishment I might receive. Economic power should be controlled or restrained in a similar manner ... with the aim of raising the overall quality of life.
#27
03/14/2005 (11:55 pm)
My latest Game Developer Magazine (March 2005) just came in and has a great article related to this topic called "Unionize Now?" by Paul Hyman. An interview with EA_Spouse mentions a website she is developing called gamewatch.org/ that is planned for completion by June. It is to be a website where developers can share information and rate their companies. 
#28
03/15/2005 (1:12 am)
Very well put Jeremy.
#29
You have to understand why I can't explain economics in a conversation like this. Economics is a based on logical deductions derived from axiomatic self-evident conclusions derived, in turn, from other axiomatic conclusions and so on. In other words, each piece of economic knowledge is based on another, and because of the depth of the subject, one cannot reasonably be expected to explain the complete economic reasoning behind an argument as high-level as this given the medium. It word take thousands upon thousands of words, and countless hours I dimply don't have. Put more simply, to understand the concepts I DO have time to cover requires a basic knowledge of elementary economic concepts which is understood by an extremely miniscule portion of the world's population. If I were to make a reasonable attempt to answer the arguments put forth here, it would do as much good conceptually as talking Spanish to a monolingual Japanese person. This, of course, does not imply that the Japanese person is foolish or of ill-intent - but it does show a barrier of communication that can only be overcome by the Japanese person meeting the Spaniard halfway by taking the initiative to understand the basic concepts needed to converse with the Spanish speaking person. And unlike Spanish being convertable to Japanese, the language of economics cannot be converted to laymanese in under 5 to 10,000 words - which, as we have established, I do not have time to write.
All I am doing it asking, _pleading_ even, for people to read the book and educate themselves on economics.
That's all I can really say.
03/15/2005 (1:27 am)
Jeremy - Just because I can't and don't have time to explain the whole of Calculus from the bottom up in a thread in a game development forum does not mean that Calculus is any less valid or correct, or that I myself do not understand it somehow. Same goes for economics.You have to understand why I can't explain economics in a conversation like this. Economics is a based on logical deductions derived from axiomatic self-evident conclusions derived, in turn, from other axiomatic conclusions and so on. In other words, each piece of economic knowledge is based on another, and because of the depth of the subject, one cannot reasonably be expected to explain the complete economic reasoning behind an argument as high-level as this given the medium. It word take thousands upon thousands of words, and countless hours I dimply don't have. Put more simply, to understand the concepts I DO have time to cover requires a basic knowledge of elementary economic concepts which is understood by an extremely miniscule portion of the world's population. If I were to make a reasonable attempt to answer the arguments put forth here, it would do as much good conceptually as talking Spanish to a monolingual Japanese person. This, of course, does not imply that the Japanese person is foolish or of ill-intent - but it does show a barrier of communication that can only be overcome by the Japanese person meeting the Spaniard halfway by taking the initiative to understand the basic concepts needed to converse with the Spanish speaking person. And unlike Spanish being convertable to Japanese, the language of economics cannot be converted to laymanese in under 5 to 10,000 words - which, as we have established, I do not have time to write.
All I am doing it asking, _pleading_ even, for people to read the book and educate themselves on economics.
That's all I can really say.
#30
It's just a fact of life I think EA has their own buisness plan and it seems to be working. Nobody remembers companies for being good to it's employee's. They remember them for making tons of money.
However with all of these teams they are laying off who are making these AAA+ titles. Why don't they just start their own game company? I mean Valve was started by a couple of Microsoft OS programmers who decided they wanted to make games.
So with all of these laid off experienced game makers why don't they start their own game companies? They have the skills.
Although i must admit I see quite a few people on these forums that are from the industry. Fact is I think the majority of those people went to school and got a degree in programming or art expecting to get a job somewhere making X dollars a year untill they retired.
Otherwise when let off by EA they would take their creativity, and experience gained turn around and stick it right up EA's rear end by releasing the next big title.
Problem is if you decided to start your own company you'll be working 80+ hours a week with no holidays, and no overtime trying to compete and eating ramen noodles.
I mean if it takes 9 months to complete a game at 80 hours a week. How long does it take to make the same game at 40 hours a week? My guess would be twice as long. Or you would need twice as many people.
However it's fair to say that it would be no pain for EA to hire twice as many people and paying them to work 40 hours a week than paying half as many people overtime for 80 hours a week. Why don't they do that? Obviously they know something I don't.
Like that if I own a factory and lay off 75% of my workers, and then work the rest 80 hours week I'll make more money with no productivity drop. Because I'll be paying 1/4 the workers about the same as I was paying less than half the workers without losing productivity because they will work twice as hard to keep their jobs.
I also have to pay less health benefits, less insurance, etc.
As far as any company goes they will do whatever is necessary if it means making more money. I've seen this style of buinsness all over not just in the game industry, and you can't expect big buisness (who payoff government officials) to be forced to make any radical changes any time soon.
Or else true they will simply relocate to another country, and make even more money than they do now.
So basically they are allowed to operate the way they do because otherwise all those people they do employ would become unemployed, and all those taxes they pay would go to another country. So they're being "American" just by staying over here, and doing what they do.
Fact is life is not fair. Never has been, never will be. That includes my own ramen noodle eating self as it's not like I am spouting this while owning my own buisness or driving a BMW.
04/01/2005 (12:58 pm)
Well this may sound harsh but let me see how many times I've gotten a job only to decide it wasn't worth it? Hmm that would about every single job I've ever had. I mean is $5 really worth an hour of my life?It's just a fact of life I think EA has their own buisness plan and it seems to be working. Nobody remembers companies for being good to it's employee's. They remember them for making tons of money.
However with all of these teams they are laying off who are making these AAA+ titles. Why don't they just start their own game company? I mean Valve was started by a couple of Microsoft OS programmers who decided they wanted to make games.
So with all of these laid off experienced game makers why don't they start their own game companies? They have the skills.
Although i must admit I see quite a few people on these forums that are from the industry. Fact is I think the majority of those people went to school and got a degree in programming or art expecting to get a job somewhere making X dollars a year untill they retired.
Otherwise when let off by EA they would take their creativity, and experience gained turn around and stick it right up EA's rear end by releasing the next big title.
Problem is if you decided to start your own company you'll be working 80+ hours a week with no holidays, and no overtime trying to compete and eating ramen noodles.
I mean if it takes 9 months to complete a game at 80 hours a week. How long does it take to make the same game at 40 hours a week? My guess would be twice as long. Or you would need twice as many people.
However it's fair to say that it would be no pain for EA to hire twice as many people and paying them to work 40 hours a week than paying half as many people overtime for 80 hours a week. Why don't they do that? Obviously they know something I don't.
Like that if I own a factory and lay off 75% of my workers, and then work the rest 80 hours week I'll make more money with no productivity drop. Because I'll be paying 1/4 the workers about the same as I was paying less than half the workers without losing productivity because they will work twice as hard to keep their jobs.
I also have to pay less health benefits, less insurance, etc.
As far as any company goes they will do whatever is necessary if it means making more money. I've seen this style of buinsness all over not just in the game industry, and you can't expect big buisness (who payoff government officials) to be forced to make any radical changes any time soon.
Or else true they will simply relocate to another country, and make even more money than they do now.
So basically they are allowed to operate the way they do because otherwise all those people they do employ would become unemployed, and all those taxes they pay would go to another country. So they're being "American" just by staying over here, and doing what they do.
Fact is life is not fair. Never has been, never will be. That includes my own ramen noodle eating self as it's not like I am spouting this while owning my own buisness or driving a BMW.
#31
The point of the thread is that EA was not properly compensating workers for overtime. Perhaps if they are forced to pay overtime they will consider hiring more employees or altering their production process.
I don't see EA being able to easily pick up and move to another country. Can you imagine Chinese or Indian developers designing American entertainment? Could EA get all of the creative people in American coming up with ideas to entertain us to move to these countries?
This learned helplessness, or apathy, is probably the biggest reason why Americans allow corporations to act with such a lack of ethics. These workers attempt to stand up for their rights and actually create some "radical change" in the software entertainment industry and you mock them because you feel that such change should not be expected? When I look at America's history I come to the conclusion that when a group's rights are being violated radical changes CAN be expected.
04/01/2005 (4:32 pm)
Quote:However it's fair to say that it would be no pain for EA to hire twice as many people and paying them to work 40 hours a week than paying half as many people overtime for 80 hours a week. Why don't they do that? Obviously they know something I don't.
The point of the thread is that EA was not properly compensating workers for overtime. Perhaps if they are forced to pay overtime they will consider hiring more employees or altering their production process.
Quote:Or else true they will simply relocate to another country, and make even more money than they do now.
I don't see EA being able to easily pick up and move to another country. Can you imagine Chinese or Indian developers designing American entertainment? Could EA get all of the creative people in American coming up with ideas to entertain us to move to these countries?
Quote:As far as any company goes they will do whatever is necessary if it means making more money. I've seen this style of buinsness all over not just in the game industry, and you can't expect big buisness (who payoff government officials) to be forced to make any radical changes any time soon.
This learned helplessness, or apathy, is probably the biggest reason why Americans allow corporations to act with such a lack of ethics. These workers attempt to stand up for their rights and actually create some "radical change" in the software entertainment industry and you mock them because you feel that such change should not be expected? When I look at America's history I come to the conclusion that when a group's rights are being violated radical changes CAN be expected.
#32
Hell yeah!
04/01/2005 (4:49 pm)
Quote:
When I look at America's history I come to the conclusion that when a group's rights are being violated radical changes CAN be expected.
Hell yeah!
#33
@Joe Bird - You know of course that Ubisoft is a French company? For example Splinter Cell was made in France, and the sequal to Splinter Cell was made by their office in Beijing? So what ae you talking about foreign people not being able to make American entertainment? Are you trying to say that Chinese developers aren't as capable? Or perhaps they lack vision to produce such games as Doom III? (engine wise Doom III was something else)
I don't mean this as a direct insult but thats an ignorant statement. It's not apathy or learned helplessness it's called if you buck the system your gonna lose. You have to change things from the inside out. You cannot stand outside of the building yelling at them because they'll just shut the window.
Also to inflict some type of radical change you would need like a nation wide boycott of EA's titles. Is that possible? Maybe but it's sort of like those people trying to boycott Wal-Mart.
Fact is EA makes games people want, and thus they keep making money no matter how they treat their employee's.
Me personnally I do not like EA's practices so I do not buy EA's games nor any of their side studio's games. I don't like Wal-Marts practices and no longer shop there either. Yet thats just me personnally and I am not a normal kind of person.
So if you want to bang on doors, petition, start a boycott, etc. Let me know I'll be glad to help. Yet to sit around talking about it does nothing. Words are nothing but air, action changes things.
Yet like I said before it's all about money. If you can find a way to hit EA's pocket books they will buckle in a hurry. The same with Wal-Mart or any other big company.
So have I resigned to defeat or being stepped on? No. Problem is people no longer any unity otherwise you would think all of those workers at EA would have gone on strike. Sure EA could fire them for it, and replace them but a restaffing of every position except management would hurt their projects severely, and look very very bad.
I know because I work contract security and come in when strikes start at big plants, etc. I stand their and make sure they don't drag somebody out of a car, and beat them to death.
04/01/2005 (6:32 pm)
I don't see EA being able to easily pick up and move to another country. Can you imagine Chinese or Indian developers designing American entertainment? Could EA get all of the creative people in American coming up with ideas to entertain us to move to these countries?@Joe Bird - You know of course that Ubisoft is a French company? For example Splinter Cell was made in France, and the sequal to Splinter Cell was made by their office in Beijing? So what ae you talking about foreign people not being able to make American entertainment? Are you trying to say that Chinese developers aren't as capable? Or perhaps they lack vision to produce such games as Doom III? (engine wise Doom III was something else)
I don't mean this as a direct insult but thats an ignorant statement. It's not apathy or learned helplessness it's called if you buck the system your gonna lose. You have to change things from the inside out. You cannot stand outside of the building yelling at them because they'll just shut the window.
Also to inflict some type of radical change you would need like a nation wide boycott of EA's titles. Is that possible? Maybe but it's sort of like those people trying to boycott Wal-Mart.
Fact is EA makes games people want, and thus they keep making money no matter how they treat their employee's.
Me personnally I do not like EA's practices so I do not buy EA's games nor any of their side studio's games. I don't like Wal-Marts practices and no longer shop there either. Yet thats just me personnally and I am not a normal kind of person.
So if you want to bang on doors, petition, start a boycott, etc. Let me know I'll be glad to help. Yet to sit around talking about it does nothing. Words are nothing but air, action changes things.
Yet like I said before it's all about money. If you can find a way to hit EA's pocket books they will buckle in a hurry. The same with Wal-Mart or any other big company.
So have I resigned to defeat or being stepped on? No. Problem is people no longer any unity otherwise you would think all of those workers at EA would have gone on strike. Sure EA could fire them for it, and replace them but a restaffing of every position except management would hurt their projects severely, and look very very bad.
I know because I work contract security and come in when strikes start at big plants, etc. I stand their and make sure they don't drag somebody out of a car, and beat them to death.
#34
Wrong example.
Ubisoft might be a French company, but they employ local people in their studios...
That said, they do give their studios the possibility of doing their own games, so in that you're not completely wrong...
And everything you say is no reason to not try to make things better.
By your own token, if people didn't buck the system, you wouldn't be able to have your job as contract security, now, would you ? Or you'd be a boss goon :)
You shouldn't let your position on picket lines (helping management get in and not get beaten to a pulp) taint your whole perception of things...
The whole union thing (however messed up it can be in certain cases nowadays) got started that way, in case you don't remember, with quite a bit of violence too : if that's not bucking the system, what is ?
The bucking the system has helped shape the world we live in today (however messed up it can seem at times), always had, always will.
Trying to make things better for not only yourself but your peers is one of the noblest things you can do.
For someone with the handle you choose, you should know that, no ?
04/01/2005 (7:39 pm)
It's a matter of culture more than qualifications : the 3d Splinter Cell masters have all been done in Montreal, where the culture is definitely North American, say, like New York, with strong European influences. Wrong example.
Ubisoft might be a French company, but they employ local people in their studios...
That said, they do give their studios the possibility of doing their own games, so in that you're not completely wrong...
And everything you say is no reason to not try to make things better.
By your own token, if people didn't buck the system, you wouldn't be able to have your job as contract security, now, would you ? Or you'd be a boss goon :)
You shouldn't let your position on picket lines (helping management get in and not get beaten to a pulp) taint your whole perception of things...
The whole union thing (however messed up it can be in certain cases nowadays) got started that way, in case you don't remember, with quite a bit of violence too : if that's not bucking the system, what is ?
The bucking the system has helped shape the world we live in today (however messed up it can seem at times), always had, always will.
Trying to make things better for not only yourself but your peers is one of the noblest things you can do.
For someone with the handle you choose, you should know that, no ?
#35
Also I didn't say anything about not trying to make things better. However like I did say I dont see EA employee's on strike forming picket lines, etc.
Heck I've seen employee's strike and picket a Payday candybar factory and those people definitely make a lot less than EA's employee's. So why will a high school grad or less stand up for their $10 an hour job, and a EA employee won't stand up for their (definitely more than $10 an hour) jobs?
And those people aren't bucking the system they are the system. It's the difference between EA employee's striking EA and a bunch of people with no affiliation griping about EA. Perhaps they should hijack an EA truck and dump it in the water like the Boston Tea Party. Then we could have a video game revolution. lol
Heck the one complaint letter I ever read about EA's practices wasn't even written by an employee. It was written by the poor guys wife. Hey if my boss ticks me off I'll unlock the gates and walk. Why don't EA employee's just go Format c: and get up and walk?
04/01/2005 (8:18 pm)
According to G4TV the second Splinter Cell (Pandora Tomorrow I think) was created in their Beijing studio. Which is nowhere near France. However the first and current versions were made in France.Also I didn't say anything about not trying to make things better. However like I did say I dont see EA employee's on strike forming picket lines, etc.
Heck I've seen employee's strike and picket a Payday candybar factory and those people definitely make a lot less than EA's employee's. So why will a high school grad or less stand up for their $10 an hour job, and a EA employee won't stand up for their (definitely more than $10 an hour) jobs?
And those people aren't bucking the system they are the system. It's the difference between EA employee's striking EA and a bunch of people with no affiliation griping about EA. Perhaps they should hijack an EA truck and dump it in the water like the Boston Tea Party. Then we could have a video game revolution. lol
Heck the one complaint letter I ever read about EA's practices wasn't even written by an employee. It was written by the poor guys wife. Hey if my boss ticks me off I'll unlock the gates and walk. Why don't EA employee's just go Format c: and get up and walk?
#36
Not TV, not gaming journalism, but the people who did the game :)
Edit : except Pandora Tomorrow, which seems to have been produced in China, and some parts at Ubi's Annecy studio in France, under close supervision from France, and cooperation with the designers in Montreal. You weren't wrong about that :)
Although that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot more example of game failing in a foreign market because of cultural differences than successes : most Japanese games are not released here for that reason, and ditto with most North American titles over there. Heck, even Europe and North American don't exhibit the same sales trends at all. Games are no different than any other media or entertainment, even though we like to think otherwise...
Lineage in North America, anyone ? ;)
Of course, some titles are world wide successes, but to say that EA can just decide to produce the sames games elsewhere, is one, assuming that a team has no impact on a product, and two, that culture is irrelevant
And the problem is not just with EA : it's actually detrimental (or useful, if you're trying to avoid having your employees organize : point your finger at EA and say how things are that much worse over there, which is not totally true ;)) to have the focus on EA like this and forgetting that the general feeling is that it's a pervading state of affairs at game dev studios, all over the world.
I know i'm not just talking about EA. EA keeps coming up, well 'cause it's the MS of games :)
You do know about Wash Tech, right ? the union of MS contractors ?
Learn a bit more about this industry, maybe work in it a bit, before making blanket statements.
Don't get me wrong :I don't see a need for any violence, quite the contrary. That said, there is stuff happening and people are starting to hear about it.
As to why people just don't walk out the door : maybe they need the money ? Maybe it's because there is a world of nuances between keeping mum and letting the abuse build up and armed revolution ?
You'd think someone who talks about labor disputes, even works in their context would know that...
04/02/2005 (6:52 am)
Zen : According to the people on the dev teams themselves at the Montreal studio, all masters of the 3d versions of the Splinter Cell games were done in Montreal, Qc, Canada (which is in North America). Not TV, not gaming journalism, but the people who did the game :)
Edit : except Pandora Tomorrow, which seems to have been produced in China, and some parts at Ubi's Annecy studio in France, under close supervision from France, and cooperation with the designers in Montreal. You weren't wrong about that :)
Although that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot more example of game failing in a foreign market because of cultural differences than successes : most Japanese games are not released here for that reason, and ditto with most North American titles over there. Heck, even Europe and North American don't exhibit the same sales trends at all. Games are no different than any other media or entertainment, even though we like to think otherwise...
Lineage in North America, anyone ? ;)
Of course, some titles are world wide successes, but to say that EA can just decide to produce the sames games elsewhere, is one, assuming that a team has no impact on a product, and two, that culture is irrelevant
And the problem is not just with EA : it's actually detrimental (or useful, if you're trying to avoid having your employees organize : point your finger at EA and say how things are that much worse over there, which is not totally true ;)) to have the focus on EA like this and forgetting that the general feeling is that it's a pervading state of affairs at game dev studios, all over the world.
I know i'm not just talking about EA. EA keeps coming up, well 'cause it's the MS of games :)
You do know about Wash Tech, right ? the union of MS contractors ?
Learn a bit more about this industry, maybe work in it a bit, before making blanket statements.
Don't get me wrong :I don't see a need for any violence, quite the contrary. That said, there is stuff happening and people are starting to hear about it.
As to why people just don't walk out the door : maybe they need the money ? Maybe it's because there is a world of nuances between keeping mum and letting the abuse build up and armed revolution ?
You'd think someone who talks about labor disputes, even works in their context would know that...
#37
Frankly though I et I could get some good american voice actors, and pay a chinese studio/sweatshop to create a Rainbw Six type game (just an example) and nobody would be able to look at the game and say "This wasn't made in America." Short of having major grammatical errors in the game, and a lot of Japanese games are extremely poplar in the USA even with bad translations and the culture difference.
I know there are lots of reasons for not walking out the door. Of course they need the money thats always #1 but it's a matter of what the employee's consider tolerable. I've hung on to horrible jobs before untill I found something better. However if a company ever broke a contract with me I would stick it to them hard. This is a problem even in the security world. I remember working and sleeping on site for two weeks straight pulling 16 hour shifts (on my feet) 7 days a week and sleeping on a carpet floor eating out of vending machines for about $9.50 and hour (including overtime). However if they pulled that too much I would simply refuse but I was smart enough to make sure I had my bases covered. The object is having them by the marbles, and not the other way around.
Yet I don't work for EA or even in the industry nor would I want too except for in my own studio. I don't feel sorry for them though because I bet if I offered to trade jobs with an EA wage slave they would laugh in my face.
04/02/2005 (5:29 pm)
Well the show I watched was interviewing the developers from Ubisoft both in France, and one guy from the Beijing offices. To quote one of the French developers "I thought the guys at the Beijing office did a really nice job on Pandora Tomorrow in keeping with blah blah blah..."Frankly though I et I could get some good american voice actors, and pay a chinese studio/sweatshop to create a Rainbw Six type game (just an example) and nobody would be able to look at the game and say "This wasn't made in America." Short of having major grammatical errors in the game, and a lot of Japanese games are extremely poplar in the USA even with bad translations and the culture difference.
I know there are lots of reasons for not walking out the door. Of course they need the money thats always #1 but it's a matter of what the employee's consider tolerable. I've hung on to horrible jobs before untill I found something better. However if a company ever broke a contract with me I would stick it to them hard. This is a problem even in the security world. I remember working and sleeping on site for two weeks straight pulling 16 hour shifts (on my feet) 7 days a week and sleeping on a carpet floor eating out of vending machines for about $9.50 and hour (including overtime). However if they pulled that too much I would simply refuse but I was smart enough to make sure I had my bases covered. The object is having them by the marbles, and not the other way around.
Yet I don't work for EA or even in the industry nor would I want too except for in my own studio. I don't feel sorry for them though because I bet if I offered to trade jobs with an EA wage slave they would laugh in my face.
#38
The reason they dont do that is because your "math" isnt quite right. The following assumptions do not equal the same end result of productivity:
1. 20 people working 80 hours
2. 20 people working 40 hours for twice as many weeks
3. 40 people working 40 hours
The reason is, in point one you start to get deteriorating results after a certain point, granted it tends to vary per individual. The problem with why point 3 isn't equal is because there is a point where you start to get diminishing returns based on the number of people you throw at a problem.
04/04/2005 (7:37 am)
@ZenQuote:However it's fair to say that it would be no pain for EA to hire twice as many people and paying them to work 40 hours a week than paying half as many people overtime for 80 hours a week. Why don't they do that? Obviously they know something I don't.
The reason they dont do that is because your "math" isnt quite right. The following assumptions do not equal the same end result of productivity:
1. 20 people working 80 hours
2. 20 people working 40 hours for twice as many weeks
3. 40 people working 40 hours
The reason is, in point one you start to get deteriorating results after a certain point, granted it tends to vary per individual. The problem with why point 3 isn't equal is because there is a point where you start to get diminishing returns based on the number of people you throw at a problem.
#39
04/04/2005 (8:39 am)
This is very true, not to mention the additional need for office space, benefits, etc. etc.
#40
Yeah, but it is still not a Chinese game design, and still not a Chinese company and you still have American employees. Also, you are assuming your Rainbow Six clone would be competitive. Meanwhile American developers will be innovating new ways to entertain Americans. You previously said that EA could simply relocate to another country and make more money. You have yet to describe how they could do that.
Hey, Anime is pretty popular too, but I don't think it will overtake Disney anytime soon. Also, I've seen American companies succesfully take the Anime style and redo it for an American audience. Examples would be Nickelodeon's Avatar and Cartoon Network's Teen Titans.
Your original point was that EA could ignore its employees because it could pick up and move to another country and make more money, yet you have pointed out France, Canada, and Japan as alternatives. I don't think EA could save money moving to any of these countries.
Of course some offshoring to countries like China, India, and Brazil is going to happen. But if software developers do not stand up for themselves and give in to the alternative of competing with 3rd world wages they will have to adapt to a 3rd world lifestyle. And if that happens they would leave their jobs anyway, so what do they have to lose?
04/05/2005 (4:56 pm)
Quote:Frankly though I et I could get some good american voice actors, and pay a chinese studio/sweatshop to create a Rainbw Six type game (just an example) and nobody would be able to look at the game and say "This wasn't made in America."
Yeah, but it is still not a Chinese game design, and still not a Chinese company and you still have American employees. Also, you are assuming your Rainbow Six clone would be competitive. Meanwhile American developers will be innovating new ways to entertain Americans. You previously said that EA could simply relocate to another country and make more money. You have yet to describe how they could do that.
Quote:and a lot of Japanese games are extremely poplar in the USA even with bad translations and the culture difference.
Hey, Anime is pretty popular too, but I don't think it will overtake Disney anytime soon. Also, I've seen American companies succesfully take the Anime style and redo it for an American audience. Examples would be Nickelodeon's Avatar and Cartoon Network's Teen Titans.
Your original point was that EA could ignore its employees because it could pick up and move to another country and make more money, yet you have pointed out France, Canada, and Japan as alternatives. I don't think EA could save money moving to any of these countries.
Of course some offshoring to countries like China, India, and Brazil is going to happen. But if software developers do not stand up for themselves and give in to the alternative of competing with 3rd world wages they will have to adapt to a 3rd world lifestyle. And if that happens they would leave their jobs anyway, so what do they have to lose?
Torque 3D Owner Hokuto
Yes fresh talent won't have the same experience of someone that has been in the idnustry for a few years, but because for them it could be the very first game they work on... on the first big game they work on they are ready to work insane amounts of hours to be part of it and prove their talent..
They don't know they are simply getting used by the employer and most get burnt.. and change mind after one project or two spent.
When they change mind and understand that being slaves to the employer was not such a good idea, then they start to have issues with the employer... they may get criticised for not pulling long hours off anymore and they are at risk of being made redundant/fired because the employer can get some new fresh blood willing to do anything to get in....
The loop goes on and on.
While all of this is happening less than before, it is still an issue.
Not all companies act like this... but some still do.
It is like competition driving price down.. You have 10 shops selling the same thing and they start to offer it for $1 less then the cheaper one and so on and so on... only this time the price is actually the salaray-package compared to amount of hours worked...
The more people you get to accept to slave off for 12/20 hours per day the more outcast and singled out the developers with a life will be. The game industry also needs to understnad that the developers with experience are not the 16/18 years old talented singel noobs... experiencd people are now more like 25/35 years old talented and experienced developers (artists/programmers/designers) that are not 16 anymore and may have a family and that includes a wife, kids, a dog, social activites etc...
Employers think that they can get crazy amount of working hours with not overtime pay from professional experienced people with a family just as much as from a 18 years old single and talented noob.
This is the reason why things are moving faster and better every year within the indie scene... with the help of budget publishers and e-commerce.
ideally bedroom developers would make a comeback and originality would make it into games more and more... UTOPIA maybe, but tools are now becoming cheaper and better.. so let's keep it up and make some cool indie game:)